Imagine if Virtuoso got even a fraction of effort that bladesworn/vindicator/catalyst got.

[Levetty.1279]

Are we still pretending 'no clones' is an elite spec mechanic?

[Xaylin.1860]

It is. But it's simple and therefore has to be backed up with more. Unfortunately, Virtuoso traits are aweful, Utilities are pretty but irrelevant and - probably the worst part -- it lacks synergies with core Mesmer.

[Nezekan.2671]

4 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

It is. But it's simple and therefore has to be backed up with more. Unfortunately, Virtuoso traits are aweful, Utilities are pretty but irrelevant and - probably the worst part -- it lacks synergies with core Mesmer.

Virtuoso traits do not interact with anything but themselves. It has no synergy with core mesmer, and the grandmaster traits are terrible. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Being cloneless isn't a mechanic if they put blades back into it. Essentially it is just replacing resources to execute skills which works the same. 

Shatters being RANGED isn't even considered a mechanic, but let me give some examples of real mechanics.

For example:

CS for Chrono is an actual mechanic.

Mirage cloak is a mechanic cuz of how ambush works

Detargetting for Mirage is also a mechanic 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Xaylin.1860]

Jesus, people... I'm not going to argue about semantics here. Imho, it alters the core mechanic in a meaningful way. To me, it doesn't have to be all new to be interesting. 

 

You don't have to like it and it might not be as flashy as a Lightsabre. It is still a sound concept. The implementation is the issue. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

How does it alter the core mechanic in a meaningful way...? Core used clones as resource to shatter....Virtuoso uses blades to shatter...they are both "resources". I think you are the one that is caught up by the flashy "blade" to call it a mechanic. 

[Xaylin.1860]

We disagree then. 😉

[Salt Mode.3780]

Its fine to disagree on a opinion but Blades and clones being a type of resource for other skills like shatter to use isn't an opinion its facts.

Fact that people can get fooled by this in thinking that "blades" is a new mechanic just shows that the dev's deceptive marketing worked.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Gomes.5643]

Yeah - in comparision to the new bunch the old three elite specs looks increadible ..... blank ..... hopefully they do something to them.

 

It probably speaks for itself that i already have forgotten what the Virtuosos Utilities are ....

[Nezekan.2671]

14 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Jesus, people... I'm not going to argue about semantics here. Imho, it alters the core mechanic in a meaningful way. To me, it doesn't have to be all new to be interesting. 

 

You don't have to like it and it might not be as flashy as a Lightsabre. It is still a sound concept. The implementation is the issue. 

"Alter" is just a false word. The word you are looking for is it worsens the mechanic. Can you tell me the advantage of blades over clones?

Edited September 17, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[Levetty.1279]

11 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

We disagree then. 😉

*Deny.

You can't disagree with a fact.

[Gomes.5643]

23 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

"Alter" is just a false word. The word you are looking for is it worsens the mechanic. Can you tell me the advantage of blades over clones?

 

They dont disappear when the target dies. Which is a huge deal for 75% of all PvE Content. I actually like the theme and direction of full dmg spec but it pales in comparision to what the other specs get.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Gomes.5643

[Nezekan.2671]

1 minute ago, Gomes.5643 said:

 

They dont disappear when the target dies. Which is a huge deal for 75% of all PvE Content.

You mean primarily open world. Because in fractals and raids, it doesn't matter. Besides, clone shatters are Aoe, Bladesongs are single target.

[Salt Mode.3780]

4 minutes ago, Gomes.5643 said:

 

They dont disappear when the target dies. Which is a huge deal for 75% of all PvE Content.

If you are talking about open world then I guess lol but its open world....

2 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

You mean primarily open world. Because in fractals and raids, it doesn't matter. Besides, clone shatters are Aoe, Bladesongs are single target.

Hey you might get corrected they "PIERCE" which is OBVIOUSLY a NEW mechanic.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Levetty.1279]

3 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

You mean primarily open world. Because in fractals and raids, it doesn't matter. Besides, clone shatters are Aoe, Bladesongs are single target.

 

1 minute ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

If you are talking about open world then I guess lol but its open world....

Hey you might get corrected they "PIERCE" which is OBVIOUSLY a NEW mechanic.

Its not even a huge deal in open world. Use clone generation of choice, shatter, mob is dead. Its the player's fault if they wasted time trying to build 3 clones up on a mob for no reason.

[Nezekan.2671]

Yeah I don't understand this.

 

Power build want to immediately shatter, because shatter deals FAR MORE damage than clone auto attack. So it doesn't matter if clones disappear after target dies, because you want to shatter your clones asap.

 

Condi mesmers can use clones because they still apply conditions, despite very low auto attack damage. Staff and Axe ambushes deal aoe damage. You spawn clones on the highest health target and use ambush with infinite horizons to cleave targets and you shatter  as the clones are about to disappear. Besides, Axe 3 and the utility skill Illusionary Ambush allow you to change the target of clones.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[Salt Mode.3780]

Sorry if my sarcasm wasnt there, but that was my point exactly, Mesmer weapon skills generally do no damage as it is, bulk of your dmg comes from shatter in open world. Having IP is no different then Blades not disappearing and clone generation is never a problem compared to generating blades. There is a reason why they gave u a utilities that allow you to generate full stacks of blades....

[Gomes.5643]

Well I was talking more from a design point of view then pure gameplay/effectiveness. When you design a ressource based system which is suppose to have an payoff when you have collected said ressource it feels kinda off if you get stripped of it just because the mob dies. I didnt mean that that makes the mesmer unplayable just weirdly designed imo.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Gomes.5643

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I’ve tried to put my disdain on hold until the 9 spec beta. The virtuoso is fairly uninspired, count to 5 blades and dump. You don’t need to manage the clones, which makes it feel like the mechanic is simply removing the clone management portion.  Is less mechanics a new mechanic?

I do actually think that the core idea for Virtuoso is fine and with some attention and work (like clearing up all those non-synergized traits) it could be fun to play.

Right now though, Harbinger and Vindicator appear to have the most unique or interesting new mechanics. Mechanics that make the player think a bit more about what they are doing and how to use the profession. 

[Kondor.2904]

Without even mentioning obvious mechanical disparities between elite specs and the amount of new skills they get, I especially love how everyone got these neat movement skills (warrior's teleport kekw) and cool movesets, while mesmer (which is supposed to be thief-like class) is just there pretending to a be a stationary golem that just kinda stands and jacks off some purple stuff with its hand.

sadge

Edited September 18, 2021 by Kondor.2904

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

you can't use "daggers" as damage sponges... illusions you can. illusions could be used as a defensive mechanic, which is no longer available in the virtuoso, granted, theoretically, the defensive mechanic of illusions was PvP. since it was so easy to not program NPCs to not be able to tell the difference between a clone and a player, even though it doesn't take too much too learn the difference in their behavior.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Forgotten Legend.9281

[Near.7439]

Not gonna lie, was pretty bummed about virtuoso after seeing the elite specs from today. At this point I'd kill for even a trait rework even if we don't get a cool new mechanic.

[Fueki.4753]

I think it's good that Virtuoso is such a simple design.

Not everything needs to be over-designed and have too many mechanics.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Leonidrex.5649]

44 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I think it's good that Virtuoso is such a simple design.

Not everything needs to be over-designed and have too many mechanics.

chess is a simple design, virtuoso is like turning chess into checkers, you might have fun for the first 2 games but its the chess you come back too.
I want chess not kittening checkers man

[HowlKamui.5120]

The traits of the current 3 elite specs being beta'd, especially the Catalyst is much more inspired than Virtuoso's and Harbinger's for sure.

For some reason, Virtuoso and Harbinger have 1 line power and 1 line condi, which is incredibly boring. You already choose to go with condi or power based on your armor, why do the traits have to specifically be a straight line for power, and a straight line for condi?