Catalyst class design and hammer

[montecristo.1324]

I really really think catalyst is just bad design.

It's clear that the devs just worked on hammer and then realized they forgot a mechanic and added last minute that F5.

 

First of all that F5 could have been the little thing that could have saved core ele. Give it to core ele and maybe it is not total garbage.

 

All people saying that hammer is amazing, I can understand that, but why build an entire mechanic on the hammer 3??? Use that thing as class mechanic!!! It's just stupid to put so much effort on a weapon that maybe it will not even be used if it's not balanced enough...

 

I just think that the entire design is flawed

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

they just need to make the f5 well not switch when switching elements... most people will want to drop air well for quickness and then do a dps rotation... or perhaps a water well if you go some kind of healer build... but the well keeps changing as you cycle thru elements... what advantage are you gonna get from them if you switch from element to element and you get... 1 might for the second you were in fire mode?

Edited September 19, 2021 by Knuckle Joe.7408

[The Fear.3865]

Core ele doesnt need F5, it needs balance, especially on CDs. 

[montecristo.1324]

1 minute ago, The Fear.3865 said:

Core ele doesnt need F5, it needs balance, especially on CDs. 

Core ele is a downgrade from all the espec, it bring nothing compared to them. He need something and I believe the F5 is a solution, or some spell on element swap

[draxynnic.3719]

14 minutes ago, The Fear.3865 said:

Core ele doesnt need F5, it needs balance, especially on CDs. 

The trick is finding a balance that doesn't just end up being picked up by the elite specs. Now, really tuning up the core specialisations and the synergies between them such that taking three core specialisations is a viable alternative to taking an elite is probably still ideal, but some small F5 would probably help to seal the deal. Currently, Tempest is the one elite specialisation that doesn't have any tradeoff compared to core apart from the loss of a third core traitline (overloading is a choice that comes with a downside if you choose to use it, but you can always choose to keep the option to overload in the proverbial bank and play a tempest like a core elementalist), but the general consensus is that, like revenant, the last thing elementalist needs is for tempest to be hit with a tradeoff, and instead core elementalist needs some small thing to help it stand out.

 

Catalyst spheres, however, seem a bit too big to be that one small thing. Group quickness is not something you casually bang onto a core profession because you didn't think it was appropriate to take something off an elite specialisation to make a tradeoff.

[Kodama.6453]

5 hours ago, montecristo.1324 said:

It's clear that the devs just worked on hammer and then realized they forgot a mechanic and added last minute that F5.

This is obviously not the case, since the entire spec is basically built around the F5. The utility skills interact with it, the weapon interacts with it, the traits interact with it. F5 is the core piece of the entire elite spec, so it can't be just an afterthought like function gyro has been on the original scrapper.

I personally think that Catalyst looks pretty well and fun to play... definitely way more creative than the first 3 elite specs shown to us (harbinger for example was actually a flawed design for me, since it just felt way too copy pasty).

[bluberblasen.9684]

5 hours ago, Knuckle Joe.7408 said:

they just need to make that f5 element not switch when switching elements... most people will want to drop air for quickness and then do a dps rotation... but the well keeps changing to rather useless effects like might per sec.

Wait! The wells switch with your attunement?

WTF

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

48 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Wait! The wells switch with your attunement?

WTF

 

[Kodama.6453]

53 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Wait! The wells switch with your attunement?

WTF

This system has advantages and disadvantages.

The advantage is that you can get the combo field you need by just switching to the attunement associated. Used the fire well, but you suddenly need the group heal from the water combo field? Just switch to water.

The disadvantage is that you can't "fire and forget" a well and keep doing your normal rota, like dropping the quickness well and then proceed to fire for the dps. But it is an interesting system in my opinion and requires well better decision making than the other fire and forget wells.

Edited September 19, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Avead.5760]

Fire and forget  is way less interesting than switching. At this point balance of spec does not matter at all since numbers will change. What we need is to make it as much interesting as it possible can. I would also prefer it could somehow move even if effects got nerf cause repositioning increases options and skill cap I think.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

6 hours ago, montecristo.1324 said:

I really really think catalyst is just bad design.

It kinda seems that way to me too.

• Profession mechanic is  240 range, Half of hammer attunements are melee range. This is not a melee or ranged spec.
• 4 of 20 weapon skills are sacrificed for the profession mechanic.
• Utility skills seem underwhelming.
• Synergy w/other weapons seems nonexistent.

Seems like it will play out one of three ways:

1. Spec will have high base damage on hammer, and will become a respected DPS class. It will soon after be nerfed, as some will figure out a rotation to change high dmg into OP dmg.
2. Spec will have mediocre base damage on hammer, but a very complex rotation will  make it become a situationally respected DPS class for those able/willing to pull off that rotation. The rest of the Catalyst players will find the spec 'meh'.
3. Spec will have mediocre base damage on hammer, and be a quirky spec occasionally sighted in open world.

I'm looking forward to trying it out in beta and  being surprised, but my skepticism is high.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

give core ele an f5 arcane attunement

 

[HotDelirium.7984]

8 hours ago, montecristo.1324 said:

I really really think catalyst is just bad design.

It's clear that the devs just worked on hammer and then realized they forgot a mechanic and added last minute that F5.

 

First of all that F5 could have been the little thing that could have saved core ele. Give it to core ele and maybe it is not total garbage.

 

All people saying that hammer is amazing, I can understand that, but why build an entire mechanic on the hammer 3??? Use that thing as class mechanic!!! It's just stupid to put so much effort on a weapon that maybe it will not even be used if it's not balanced enough...

 

I just think that the entire design is flawed

Well remember sometimes the weapon is just a weapon in name- mesmer beaming out stuff from a greatsword? MMKAY. So they  certainly have ranged with fire's auto attack but i think all 4 should have that option. Creating your semi-perm combo field and relying and shooting stuff from that is also like a deadeye needing a well which does seem interesting. Even the dev sounded confused about the team picking hammer. I assume they want to pick less popular options for the weapons ( their internal numbers). Its certainly a wierd design choice with wierd logic around it's mechanics.  While a short or longbow shooting magic from a semi-perm well sounds expected....us the players still would have loved it.

Edited September 19, 2021 by HotDelirium.7984

[HotDelirium.7984]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

give core ele an f5 arcane attunement

 

technically we already have it...its in between every attunement...which i guess connects all the attunements and we have arcane utility skills and the tempest has the Arcane elite.

[HotDelirium.7984]

1 hour ago, TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

It kinda seems that way to me too.

• Profession mechanic is  240 range, Half of hammer attunements are melee range. This is not a melee or ranged spec.
• 4 of 20 weapon skills are sacrificed for the profession mechanic.
• Utility skills seem underwhelming.
• Synergy w/other weapons seems nonexistent.

Seems like it will play out one of three ways:

1. Spec will have high base damage on hammer, and will become a respected DPS class. It will soon after be nerfed, as some will figure out a rotation to change high dmg into OP dmg.
2. Spec will have mediocre base damage on hammer, but a very complex rotation will  make it become a situationally respected DPS class for those able/willing to pull off that rotation. The rest of the Catalyst players will find the spec 'meh'.
3. Spec will have mediocre base damage on hammer, and be a quirky spec occasionally sighted in open world.

I'm looking forward to trying it out in beta and  being surprised, but my skepticism is high.

Anything with high mobility will just ruin this elite spec. Also for the water attunement ( im a huge hydromancer buff) seems more like it would fit wvw/pvp and not PVE. Chill, vigor and resolution are low on the list of desirable boons/condi in pve.

Edited September 19, 2021 by HotDelirium.7984

[Touchme.1097]

I would change Wells into Auras so the F5 mechanic follows you while moving, I hate stationary mechanics on Elementalist, including those awful skills rooting Elementalist into place

[Luindu.2418]

Seems bad to me too.

 

The hammer seems boring, many skills seems just re-skins of others that already exists but with few tweaks.

Spinning skills (earth 2, water 5 and air 2) seems counterintuitive without whirl finisher.

Can't move the F5 field with us and 15s of recharge seems to makes imposible a reposition of it without, if the F5 recharge isn't shared, changing the atunnement and also the field.

Poison Field on earth and a trait (elemental epitome - minor grandmaster) that seems created to fix the absence of combos for magnetic and shocking auras.

[Downstate.4697]

Agreed. If hammer had whirl finishers on those skills it would make hammer a better option for aura generation.

[bluberblasen.9684]

5 hours ago, Knuckle Joe.7408 said:

 

Oh no. .  I saw the stream but thought he cheated with recharge and changed the wells for showing...

This mechanic is bad for my play style.

I thought I could throw water field, than water 4 heal leap than water 5 cleans conditions than switch to earth for area heal (arcane trait) than press earth 5 =area heal

Switch air press air 5 = area heal

Switch fire press fire 5 = area heal

 Oh no..  Can't do my combos ;(

[fuzzyp.6295]

3 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Anything with high mobility will just ruin this elite spec. Also for the water attunement ( im a huge hydromancer buff) seems more like it would fit wvw/pvp and not PVE. Chill, vigor and resolution are low on the list of desirable boons/condi in pve.

I don't know if this class is going to be as vulnerable to high mobility classes as we are all thinking.

The Jade Sphere AoEs being stationary is one thing, but the Catalyst will still gain its Aura enchancing abilities whenever it combos, not just when it combos with the Jade Sphere AoEs. Ele has tons of options for fields/finishers with Dagger, Focus and Staff, so it shouldn't be difficult for a Catalyst using those weapons to be able to move in and out and keep up with higher mobility targets. D/D Eles are still the most mobile part of the class.

Hammer doesn't have any natural combo fields so it will be fully reliant on the Jade Sphere combos, but even so Hammer is still has its midrange options to keep pressure on kiting opponents as well as a leap to pursue opponents who are trying to run away. Not to mention the Grand Finale skills which have a range of 800. Basically, I really don't think kiting a Hammer Catalyst is going to be the same as kiting a Sword Weaver.

That said, the more I think about  it, Catalyst should probably have a pull of some kind to bring players into their combo fields or perhaps access to Taunt. It might help with keeping those higher mobility players within range. Maybe Wind Storm should pull instead of push or they could add a taunt conditional on Triple Sear if the opponent gets hit by all three AoEs they start running towards you? This could help encourage the Ele to switch from range to close combat. That could... help... I guess.

Edited September 19, 2021 by fuzzyp.6295

[AppleSauce.4578]

I would loved if we could put down all 4 circles, one for each element. And if you press F5 while standing in a circle, something would happen. And whatever happens would be impacted by how many circles you are standing in at once.

[ROMANG.1903]

14 hours ago, Knuckle Joe.7408 said:

they just need to make the f5 well not switch when switching elements... most people will want to drop air well for quickness and then do a dps rotation... or perhaps a water well if you go some kind of healer build... but the well keeps changing as you cycle thru elements... what advantage are you gonna get from them if you switch from element to element and you get... 1 might for the second you were in fire mode?

A little bit of everything can be just as good as a lot of a single thing. You can start casting a blast finisher and swap to your desired attunement for the combo field. If the well didn't change based on your current attunement, it would just be Tempest 2.0. I mean yeah, play Tempest, drop your air "well" and do your DPS rotation?

[HotDelirium.7984]

11 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I don't know if this class is going to be as vulnerable to high mobility classes as we are all thinking.

The Jade Sphere AoEs being stationary is one thing, but the Catalyst will still gain its Aura enchancing abilities whenever it combos, not just when it combos with the Jade Sphere AoEs. Ele has tons of options for fields/finishers with Dagger, Focus and Staff, so it shouldn't be difficult for a Catalyst using those weapons to be able to move in and out and keep up with higher mobility targets. D/D Eles are still the most mobile part of the class.

Hammer doesn't have any natural combo fields so it will be fully reliant on the Jade Sphere combos, but even so Hammer is still has its midrange options to keep pressure on kiting opponents as well as a leap to pursue opponents who are trying to run away. Not to mention the Grand Finale skills which have a range of 800. Basically, I really don't think kiting a Hammer Catalyst is going to be the same as kiting a Sword Weaver.

That said, the more I think about  it, Catalyst should probably have a pull of some kind to bring players into their combo fields or perhaps access to Taunt. It might help with keeping those higher mobility players within range. Maybe Wind Storm should pull instead of push or they could add a taunt conditional on Triple Sear if the opponent gets hit by all three AoEs they start running towards you? This could help encourage the Ele to switch from range to close combat. That could... help... I guess.

Right now, the Well has an energy mechanic but it also says if you cancel it early you lose all remaining energy which means its going to be a constant struggle of dealing with deploying it/its constant cooldown and your weapon skills if you play just hammer. This won't be as significant in PVE since most enemies come to you but in WVW and PVP , good luck!

[HotDelirium.7984]

15 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

I would change Wells into Auras so the F5 mechanic follows you while moving, I hate stationary mechanics on Elementalist, including those awful skills rooting Elementalist into place

not to mention the Ranger spirits that use to be mobile. That was so epic until they changed em back. 

[HotDelirium.7984]

14 hours ago, Luindu.2418 said:

Seems bad to me too.

 

The hammer seems boring, many skills seems just re-skins of others that already exists but with few tweaks.

Spinning skills (earth 2, water 5 and air 2) seems counterintuitive without whirl finisher.

Can't move the F5 field with us and 15s of recharge seems to makes imposible a reposition of it without, if the F5 recharge isn't shared, changing the atunnement and also the field.

Poison Field on earth and a trait (elemental epitome - minor grandmaster) that seems created to fix the absence of combos for magnetic and shocking auras.

The water Well constantly giving me Resolution sounds inefficent. What if the enemy never uses conditions? In PVE this isn't going to be super useful in many moments. Regeneration is always useful however.....