Why are Guard and Necro always top dps

[Mell.4873]

I don't mean what snow crow reports, I really mean realistic damage in raids and fractals.
Both cFireBrand and cScourge are normally top dps and by a lot. I see them sometimes spike at about 40k dps.

[Dadnir.5038]

That's because they clear the adds through aoe while other meta builds focus either on the boss or on support.

[SeTect.5918]

Firebrand has massive burst damage due to burning being literally the only source of damage. They are also not very in need of having a support. If the support does something wrong, firebrand still has enough boons to keep their dps up. It also has fair aegis amount and can grant self protection, regen, vigor and other defensive boons so it can focus on dps. -> what brings us to necro.

Necro has massive self sustain, reaper has shroud and scourge has massive barrier. Thats why Scourge is also in fractals so good in dealing dps. Other classes have to dodge literally each attack and scourge can just facetank most hits due to the barrier. There are even vids of solo balthasar hp in ab with vipers scourge. While other classes get 2 hit by that hp. However other classes lose dps bc they have to dodge attacks and scourge just can facetank most hits and concentrate in rotation. Thats why scourge is often top dps.

And then comes me with vipers holo that has less sustain than power holo (power holo has no good sustain) bc i have to use other traits and a selfkill skill which forces u to overheat (power holo also has to use that one). And if i dont use it, i deal even less dps. so my 36.4k dps on snowcrows while scourge does over 1k more and i cant even reach 36k if i dont use the trait that forces u to overheat.

Just look at the dodge uptime and movement uptime of other classes and then look at the dodge uptime and movement uptime of scourge and firebrand. U ll see a difference.

Also 1 reason could be that most classes have no big aoe damage. Scourge has a lot aoes and firebrand too. Scourge has sand shades, utility skills are also all aoes and scepter and dagger skills too. (except scepter auto attack and skill 3)
Firebrand has symbols while r aoe. Utility skills are all aoe anyway. And f1 tome skills are also all aoe.

The last reason that comes in my mind is that both scourge and firebrand have not very hard rotas, actually they r very easy. So I ll just use myself as example again. Condi holo uses 3 kits and has 5 skills in holo forge. And it swaps between melee and ranged dps for lot of skills. For example bomb kit is melee, Grenade kit is ranged and flamethrower is halfway melee. Pistols are ranged and halfway melee and holo forge is melee.
But the point is: classes like condi holo and weaver doing a heck of a rota so its hard to bring it in a real fight bc u have to dodge and so on. A golem is one point, but a real fight is totally different.
I mean weaver doing 37-38k dps with sword on golem but try to bring that rota clean on an enemy that hits u 8k per hit when u have 11.6k hp.
And then the 37k scourge dps with slightly over 19k hp and 5% dmg reduction per sand shade (just to mention, i have 0 dmg reductions in my build) and a lot of self barrier.
And the rota is also easier. Also scourge is nearly fully ranged so it doesnt even have to facetank hits even if it could.

At the end i wanna say that i dont hate scourge or firebrand. I just find that they r faaaar better than other classes. The amount of self sustain while dealing such a dps is kinda unfair if u look at other classes.

I also dont want nerfs for scourge or firebrand, i want that other classes can stay at least a bit on par with them. Atm balance between necro, firebrand and other classes is trash af (imo).

[Touchme.1097]

They are both very good at cleaving adds, you shouldn't take cleave into consideration when comparing each profession's DPS. Benchmarks are done on single targets.

You can cleave even with very selfish profession specializations and top the DPS meters, for example hitting Rifle 2 with a Deadeye on a stacked group of adds while kneeling, as you can see cleave is objectively not very relevant when comparing DPS.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Touchme.1097
Additional info

[Sunshine.5014]

Dodge is a DPS loss. A huge one

Guardian and Necro have mechanics that they can keep DPS without having to dodge/heal much. For Scourge, their heal is actually even a DPS increase.

When I play my Ele in Fractal CM, I have to dodge aggressively. Any hit can be a potential downstate. If I got a hit (and didn't go down in one hit), I have to immediately use my heal skill, or swap to Water to heal. That's a very big DPS loss.

When I play my Scourge in Fractal CM, I basically don't care at all. I spam DPS skills, which provides huge barrier by default. Only the biggest one-hit-ko from boss that I need to care about. Anything else just a dent to my barrier sponge. I can focus 100% on DPS rotation (and it's much simpler than Ele).

That's the secret to DPS.

[Jski.6180]

The 2 classes are favored above all others by anet or at least that what i am going with.

[KrHome.1920]

What do you think is the answer, when the OP speaks about 40k dps and the benchmark under perfect conditions is only 36k? 

He clearly speaks about scenarios with a lot of adds to cleave. Not quite representative for the speed clear folks.

Edited October 3, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[SeTect.5918]

11 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

What do you think is the answer, when the OP speaks about 40k dps and the benchmark under perfect conditions is only 36k? 

He clearly speaks about scenarios with a lot of adds to cleave. Not quite representative for the speed clear folks.

He mentioned fractals. In fractals u get 15% bonus dmg by pots which is already 40k and then there is fractal god which is 7% too. 

The boss in thaumanova is Single target and i saw a scourge with 38k dps there just a few days ago. 

Cleave can also be a reason but i think its more like the movement and dodge uptime of other classes is far higher. Its not a secret that scourge can Facetank far more than some other classes. 

 

2 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

Dodge is a DPS loss. A huge one

Guardian and Necro have mechanics that they can keep DPS without having to dodge/heal much. For Scourge, their heal is actually even a DPS increase.

When I play my Ele in Fractal CM, I have to dodge aggressively. Any hit can be a potential downstate. If I got a hit (and didn't go down in one hit), I have to immediately use my heal skill, or swap to Water to heal. That's a very big DPS loss.

When I play my Scourge in Fractal CM, I basically don't care at all. I spam DPS skills, which provides huge barrier by default. Only the biggest one-hit-ko from boss that I need to care about. Anything else just a dent to my barrier sponge. I can focus 100% on DPS rotation (and it's much simpler than Ele).

That's the secret to DPS.

This described it pretty well. 

Edited October 3, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Infusion.7149]

As I posted here
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/101789-proposal-of-fractal-changes/?do=findComment&comment=1466977

If you're talking about fractals specifically scourge and CFB are not the top DPS, condi renegade is. However, it is far easier to pull off top DPS on scourge due to DPS uptime or the firebrand due to forgiving rotation (especially with additional enemies due to F1 resets).

Edited October 4, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Emberheart.8426]

3 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

He mentioned fractals. In fractals u get 15% bonus dmg by pots which is already 40k and then there is fractal god which is 7% too. 

The boss in thaumanova is Single target and i saw a scourge with 38k dps there just a few days ago. 

Cleave can also be a reason but i think its more like the movement and dodge uptime of other classes is far higher. Its not a secret that scourge can Facetank far more than some other classes. 

 

This described it pretty well. 

Don't forget exposed favoring condi too. That helps increase the dps even more.

[SeTect.5918]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

As I posted here
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/101789-proposal-of-fractal-changes/?do=findComment&comment=1466977

If you're talking about fractals specifically scourge and CFB are not the top DPS, condi renegade is. However, it is far easier to pull off top DPS on scourge due to DPS uptime or the firebrand due to forgiving rotation (especially with additional enemies due to F1 resets).

While i agree, i also have to disagree. There are also other factors in fractals that can lead to cfb or scourge being better. Here i have 3:

1: Firebrand has massive self boons, so if your support does an error, you will still deal full dps while others cant.

2. Scourge has massive....argh i ll just quote someone.

9 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

Dodge is a DPS loss. A huge one

Guardian and Necro have mechanics that they can keep DPS without having to dodge/heal much. For Scourge, their heal is actually even a DPS increase.

When I play my Ele in Fractal CM, I have to dodge aggressively. Any hit can be a potential downstate. If I got a hit (and didn't go down in one hit), I have to immediately use my heal skill, or swap to Water to heal. That's a very big DPS loss.

When I play my Scourge in Fractal CM, I basically don't care at all. I spam DPS skills, which provides huge barrier by default. Only the biggest one-hit-ko from boss that I need to care about. Anything else just a dent to my barrier sponge. I can focus 100% on DPS rotation (and it's much simpler than Ele).

That's the secret to DPS.

 

3: Firebrand shines especially in short fights. While condi firebrand has good constant dps, the burst dmg coming from burning is massive. Enemies with low hp are a welcomed enemy for firebrand. 

 

These points paired together are the reason why they r often on top. 

Tho condi renegade is also a class with a lot of sustain due to devastation. So it can compete with them or even be better. But ranger, thief, engi, warrior, mesmer and ele just cant stay on par with them. 

Cleaving is also a reason but i wanted to keep it on Single target. But yes they have massive aoe damage. I did 80k dps on boss in sirens reef when i played fb. And that was even with qfb. None of my other classes is able to even come close to this.

Edited October 4, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Noodle Ant.1605]

in fracs, youre playing with:

• mist potions which not only grants 15% outgoing dmg, but an unlisted +15% condi dmg stat bonus that also applies to +condi dmg food and some weirdly specific +condi dmg traits
• more frequently appearing breakbars which give power only a 30% dmg boost, but 100% for condi
• a non-raiding environment where certain bench buffs are missing due to 5man role compression, where condi builds appear to rely on a lesser number of these buffs

this gives condi a very wild advantage in terms of sustained dps, and is likely to show on any non-speedrun comps. it becomes particularly bad in the more 'average' groups, where power is strictly inferior outside of bursting trash and t1/t2 bosses

 

but condi builds are not equal. a range of complicated interactions - such as differing playstyles, ramp times, certain broken trait/skill interactions, scaling of different condis, and a concept i call "condi dmg purity" (looking at 70% condi builds vs 95% condi builds) - are why some condi builds are far more popular than others.

 

in retrospect, the idea of 'buffing condi' shows great misunderstanding when the problem was probably better defined as 'ramping dps not being given time to ramp'

 

i dont raid very often, but i would expect competition there to be somewhat more fair, however

[LKEY.9567]

On 10/3/2021 at 5:09 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I don't mean what snow crow reports, I really mean realistic damage in raids and fractals.
Both cFireBrand and cScourge are normally top dps and by a lot. I see them sometimes spike at about 40k dps.

 

Well, i quess you play with unexperienced groups where easy classes such as cFB or cScourge can pull ahead (talking about raids). More experienced players with different classes usually thrashes these two by a lot.

[Cuks.8241]

FB tome resets on trash.

[Touchme.1097]

One of the Chrono Mesmers I played with in fractal was dealing 100k cleave on T4 Siren's Reef last boss before the big balance patch, by the logic of those claiming Guardians and Necromancers to be the favoured professions Mesmers should be considered the top favoured child of Anet. The reality is some professions are better at cleaving, others are not. Cleave DPS is not considered relevant by raiders when benchmarking a profession. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Touchme.1097
Grammar correction

[Buran.3796]

   Forget about the not very relevant piñata golem:  at soling legendary bounties condi Renegade and condi Mirage are pretty much on par if not better than condi Necro and superior to condi Firebrand.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Forget about the not very relevant piñata golem:  at soling legendary bounties condi Renegade and condi Mirage are pretty much on par if not better than condi Necro and superior to condi Firebrand.

Yeah I do well in bounties on my mirage but fractals I can barely keep up. It seems like I put so much more effort into my rotation only to be worse.