The Virtuoso in comparison to the other Elite Specs (Discussion)

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

What with ele then? why is it still dog kitten after at least 2 years?

You have to ask Anet but it's not out of the question that your conclusion about it's performance doesn't match the reality of how it's played or how it works ... things not working how you think is not evidence they need to be changed. 

You aren't listening to what I'm saying. It seems to me based on Anet's communication in the patch notes, they DO make changes to classes based on the classes working how they want them to work and people playing them in sufficient amounts. Whether they perform to some level or not in some game mode ... those changes require playtime ... and more than a BETA amount as well.

Furthermore, these changes are not based on speculation. So you and everyone can speculate how trash it is and how no one will play it and it's the worst ever ... doesn't seem to me that's a compelling argument to change it. I mean ... if that's the best feedback you and others can muster, then you deserve everything Anet's version of Virtuoso has to offer. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Leonidrex.5649]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You have to ask Anet but it's not out of the question that your conclusion about it's performance doesn't match the reality of how it's played or how it works ... things not working how you think is not evidence they need to be changed. 

You aren't listening to what I'm saying. It seems to me based on Anet's communication in the patch notes, they DO make changes to classes based on the classes working how they want them to work and people playing them in sufficient amounts. Whether they perform to some level or not in some game mode ... those changes require playtime ... and more than a BETA amount as well.

Furthermore, these changes are not based on speculation. So you and everyone can speculate how trash it is and how no one will play it and it's the worst ever ... doesn't seem to me that's a compelling argument to change it. I mean ... if that's the best feedback you and others can muster, then you deserve everything Anet's version of Virtuoso has to offer. 

you are listening to their word. its PR talk.
They get paid to lie to you, its in their job description, its what they do.
Look at the actions and not the words.
They also said chaotic interuption is powerfull trait. 
Next patch they added animation to it as " its strong we just dont see it proc "
nobody has every seen it used after the changes as its useless.
CmC promised to give his feedback to balance feedback post made by jazz, where is he now?
Ah right, making fun on stream off 1 dodge mirage.
As I said, actions will betray who you are, words are filled with lies.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Leonidrex.5649

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

you are listening to their word. its PR talk.
They get paid to lie to you, its in their job description, its what they do.

That doesn't make sense. Anet is not sitting there telling me what their process is and I'm pretty sure if they did, they have little reason to lie about. I'm simply seeing what they are doing and their explanations of why they do it. If you are just going to assume that everything Anet tells you is a lie ... then you have little reason to believe they are listening to what you have to say anyways. Obviously you wouldn't be here if you believe that ... so it's pretty ironic that you accuse Anet of this ... when it's exactly what you are doing right here. 

Anyways ... you can believe what you like, but the fact is that Anet is going to do what they like and rationally act on good feedback. If you want to influence that, you better choose a new direction because telling Anet they are liars isn't a pretty big turnoff to get them to take you seriously. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Senqu.8054]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. Anet is not sitting there telling me what their process is and I'm pretty sure if they did, they have little reason to lie about.

 

ANet is the WORST company when it comes PR talk and followed decisions. They have a reputation of literally deleting skills since 2008 and giving a kitten about afterwards. And kitten don’t get me started on gw1 but do I really have to remember you of every single skill and trait we have lost over the past years? No a Single attempet to mechanical balance was made there. All the traits that went through the same procedure as Smithers boon? One dodge? Guess now whole classes get smither booned with especs like virtuoso.

Do I have to remember you about:

 

1. HoT

2. PoF

3. Living World season 1

4. Living World season 2

(^ worst things that could happen to this game in this exact order btw)

It was always the same Marketing bla bla that you heard from them and it got worst every single time. They lost track of the problems they had and created new ones like „yes, we can!“. Looks similar to one but worse if you ask me. But anyways, when the old devs all left, they had seriously no idea what to do anymore and made the decision to go Smithers boon over the whole game. GG
 

What money driven kitten company! 16 years customer and I have never seen such a kitten ever before. Is it now to much asked for to play a MESMER when you select a mesmer? My mind can’t comprehend how people can still defend such cheap ways of milking a product. I guess it’s the next “generation“ we have to pass on. From highly tactical innovative fighting system and defined classes with specialized skill mechanics to effect overload and spam to casual gaming fun, love it!
 

When people ask me if they should start gw2 I tell them „hell no“. This is how far it came.

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

 

ANet is the WORST company when it comes PR talk and followed decisions.

Again, if you are just assuming that Anet is all about lying to you ... then what are doing here arguing with me? If you don't believe what they have to say, what makes you think anything you say matters to them in the first place? you wouldn't.

You don't have to remember me anything ... because what is relevant here is that I can see a process at work where Anet makes changes to classes for reasons they say they are in the patch notes ... and that's not based on people's thinly veiled attempts to use speculative assessments of performance to do that or me not believing in the nonsense you are spouting about how Anet is just the worst at PR/marketing and supporting the idea they are paid to lie to us. That's just absurd. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Chrolo.8536]

I mean, you have to understand a bit where people are coming from. Of course it doesnt help and is unfair to be hyperbolic and accuse people of stuff. I am sure the devs at Anet love the game and try to make it as good as they can. But it also seems obvious that there is not enough effort going into balancing and working on the classes. Despite sometimes really good feedback things stay the same for years and that frustrates people. We already know, that a lot of the EoD Specs will be released exactly like they are now and you can't hope for more than a few bugfixes. Hopefully balancing will happen throughout 2022 but you still know that you have to deal with the mess that we have now. I am not really looking forward to Virtuoso at release and I am also not just switching my class, because I like to play on my main. Anet does a lot, but it takes them a long, long time to do so. Of course, they will do changes "based on their data" as you suggest, but it's frustrating to know that Virtuoso will eventually be fun in 2023.

Of course it is very difficult for them to even know what to change. A lot of the negative feedback comes from the fact, that everyone of us only spends a limited time playing the chars during the beta week and naturally some of the frustrations are just because we are not yet used to them. And other things are really due to bad design. Its difficult for the devs to understand what is what and which changes to make. Therefore they have to be very careful with what they change. Also, if they change a lot on one class and not another you will also alienate some players because they think its unfair.

Some of the things we critisise on Virtusso, like cast time on Bladesongs, may be perfectly fine and we just need to get used to it. Others, like the completely uninspired and boring trait design, are pretty obvious - IMO - and its good we give our feedback. Thats also what most of the criticism is as far as I can see.

When you look at Specter for example, almost every trait changes how you play the class. On Virtouso there is not a single trait that does this. You just pick the traits based on if you play a power, condi, or "duelist build" and use your skills as you would do without them. That's objectively not good design, sorry.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Its quite hilarious how they wanted to stray away from "AI" but here we are with more AI that are much stronger then what we have before (competitive play that is).

And truth be told necro got robbed by the specter its literally necro with insane mobility.

Its clear to see which classes got more work on fundamental wise and which ones were not. In terms of visual graphics they worked hard for all specs but it has nothing to do with how badly the class performs. 

Its funny when people go "good visuals = they put much thought into the class". 

 

Come be it white knights come tell me that we don't know how hard ANET has worked on blah blah this and that but based on skill effects, traits, and utilities, its fcking night and day.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

46 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its quite hilarious how they wanted to stray away from "AI" but here we are with more AI that are much stronger then what we have before (competitive play that is).

And truth be told necro got robbed by the specter its literally necro with insane mobility.

Its clear to see which classes got more work on fundamental wise and which ones were not. In terms of visual graphics they worked hard for all specs but it has nothing to do with how badly the class performs. 

Its funny when people go "good visuals = they put much thought into the class". 

 

Come be it white knights come tell me that we don't know how hard ANET has worked on blah blah this and that but based on skill effects, traits, and utilities, its fcking night and day.

You don't even have to go that far. 

Some elite specs have a clear thematic, some don't even have that. 

Every time I see someone saying the thematic they like the most is Virt I can't help but grin. 

[Senqu.8054]

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, if you are just assuming that Anet is all about lying to you ... then what are doing here arguing with me? If you don't believe what they have to say, what makes you think anything you say matters to them in the first place? you wouldn't.

You don't have to remember me anything ... because what is relevant here is that I can see a process at work where Anet makes changes to classes for reasons they say they are in the patch notes ... and that's not based on people's thinly veiled attempts to use speculative assessments of performance to do that or me not believing in the nonsense you are spouting about how Anet is just the worst at PR/marketing and supporting the idea they are paid to lie to us. That's just absurd. 

Company’s are there to make money, not to be our friends. They will tell the player base what fits, to a) keep the playerbase  and b) don’t lose their credibility as a company. At this point you are the one making assumptions. My statement is: this company kittened up since 2008, is known for it’s practice to delete game content if they have no idea what to do and in special kittened up after they lost the whole original dev team.<- no assumption, it’s a kitten fact.  You are talking out of your behind:. „I can see a process at work“ ??? Have you been to the headquarters or where did you receive this information from?
 

We had by far more competent developers in charge of the last two extensions and we have seen what happened. But let me tell it to you otherwise. A restaurant served you new food, you have been able to eat it but it didn’t taste as good as the standard menu. Now the cook changes and even the standard menu tastes like kitten now. What do you think. How will the new food taste? But the best part is: they told you to serve Parmesan but in reality it’s industrial produced analog cheese. And you defend them because, why should they lie to you honest soul. 

 

Company’s do not lie, lmaooo

Edited October 27, 2021 by Senqu.8054

[desu.2514]

there is a point to make with overly flashy choreographed skill's being to easy to dodge, one concern i have is the hugely obvious skill animation plus cast time on blade-songs but i will agree that it will require more play to really figure out if its a issue. the main one is how the entire kit is projectile, and relatively slow moving, that will be an issue especially with the complete lack of unblockable. once again its somewhat subject to meta, but it does mean 1200 range is just a number and in actuality the usable range is more in the 600-900 ballpark and skill 2/3 are much closer, melee - 600 and provide no utility aka no block, ranging tools aka movement or cc. once again not game ending but its adding to the issues.

traits as has been said, first tier aegis on bladesong and 7% damage under 600 isnt too bad. but 1 second of bleed on crit is pathetic serving no purpose or practical use for condi, its simply too short of a duration and locked into crit capping, its such a low damage that ferocity provides more damage.

minor 2, vuln on crit with blades, steps on dom tree's toes a little but that's ok for a minor but realistically could of just been part of dagger's skills anyhow.

tier 2 - duelist reversal, not bad for wvw/pvp but useless in pve, the other 2 phant launch a blade and grant fury when they complete their attack. sounds good until you realize it does 100 damage and requires them to complete their attack, not be dodged, not reflected or blocked, fury is in abundance, and lol 100 dmg? and then fury gives expertise for a spec with no use of expertise as it simply lacks the kit for it, no clones to apply condi, no tank ability to out sustain, no mobility offered to kite, no cc or slowing effects offered to kite, etc etc. poorly thought out.

minor 3 - best trait in virt

tier 3 - all need reworking, provide very little for virt or any mesmer. compare them to any GM trait on any line and they are laughable, they are essentially clone gen, but since we no longer have clones that can be killed our need to excess clone gen is made redundant, these should be master tier at most. if not outright replaced.

 

the list can go on, its never been an issue with what they want virt to be, the issue is with the design being implemented without due thought to the mechanics of mesmer. its taken a oh this is cool approach and skipped the but does it work and is it effective steps. which leaves the option of balancing by numbers that will end up as leave a skill useless or have it so OP in raw damage that it requires nerfing to once be useless again

 

 

 

 

[Borked.6824]

On 10/23/2021 at 10:44 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Thematically and visually, I still like Virtuoso more than the other eight.

From the first two beta batches, I still like how Virtuoso feels to play best (with Harmbinger being a close second).

I'd rather have Virtuoso remain as simple and neat as it is, than having it be stuffed full of mechanics just for the sake of it.

This is where I'm at.  Given the responses to some of the other specs, it seems that keeping things close to the chest is the way to go.  And I agree.  I'm traditionally not a Mesmer player, but after seeing all of the new library of specs, Virt. is really the only solid spec I know won't really create disappointment and dread to play.  But as someone who normally plays Thief, this spec is gorgeous and snappy!

Edited October 27, 2021 by Borked.6824

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

Company’s are there to make money, not to be our friends.

OK ... but that doesn't mean Anet needs to lie to us EVEN if they aren't there to be our friends so they can make money. That's absurd. Listen to what you just posted ... Anet lies to players ... to maintain credibility. Really? Is lying to people how you maintain credibility with them? That doesn't make sense. It's not even clear how these accusations are even related to Virtuoso ... but I'm sure that you are willing to take your irrational "Anet lies" justification in any direction you want right?

Anyways, you can believe what you like but accusing Anet of lying is certainly not going to accomplish anything for you, including getting changes to Virtuoso. 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[zealex.9410]

On 10/23/2021 at 7:09 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Virtuoso probably won't be unusable (outside fractals which are condi-focused right now, as well as a few condi raids where you would run mirage). At the end of the day it brings 42K+ DPS in its current iteration with boon rip on sword autos at the very least as well as focus pulls. Unlike chrono the 10% crit chance is easy to attain , you just need fury ; ferocity comes from vitality so you could even run marauder with lower penalty in competitive modes if the projectile nature of bladesongs is addressed.

see Tipcat's mesmer sheet v2.0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uXN-8fBdasAYcFKjgyBGuV8XUvqHk81YywbtJP78tsU

Once the novelty wears off and initial nerfs happen I don't think people will rave about Bladesworn (literal one trick pony ... if it's <45K DPS or <80K burst expect it to be unused), Untamed (pet spec with 5 target hammer), Mechanist (pet spec with toughness that is borderline troll if you are in toughness tanking raid for example), or Catalyst (needs so much work it's incredible , don't let the 45K condi bench fool you when it is 30-32K on small hitbox). Vindicator DPS is not up to par with Virtuoso at all and self boons (might/fury) are scarcer as far as uptime. Willbender doesn't shake any meta classes and feels under-tuned even in its intended environment (competitive modes) as it has no support aspects (and traps on DH give you higher burst). Harbinger is a glassier quickness variant of CQB at best if the 45K cDPS is nerfed. By far the most promising spec is specter because it gives healing a single target (a designated raid tank for example) a new prospect while providing some alacrity on wells and torment output on scepter.

I think few ppl doubt its viability but most likely have issues with its design, like how deceptively similar it is to mesmer just without some of the upsides of clones and how the traits are the most boring kitten.

[zealex.9410]

On 10/23/2021 at 5:45 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Yes blades are boring but if you're moving from trash mob to trash mob as the majority of the player-base plays it is a huge QoL improvement. Meanwhile it still pulls top tier DPS on golem so any bosses can be dealt with in similar fashion.

As an example look at misterred's Boneskinner / Deimos / Samarog / CA videos or tipcat's Vale Guardian video:

  Reveal hidden contents

"Virtuoso seems to work very well on sama dps wise, it has a good burst."

 

 

 

 

In PVE at least I don't see major flaws with it considering how most of the userbase plays. You would probably not run it in T4 fractals but that is more due to the exposed change than anything else , the ability to burst things in lower tier or even in phased fights with pre-stocked blades is going to be a plus. The coefficients and the projectile nature of dagger and bladesongs in general however are quite poor in competitive modes.

Question why move from trash mov to trash mob and not instead tag everything and group them for aoe shatters?

[zealex.9410]

On 10/26/2021 at 11:07 PM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

What with ele then? why is it still dog kitten after at least 2 years?
What about firebrand, I vividly remember having 3-4 FB comps 2 years ago, and we still have them now in fractals.
In pvp we have 4-5 necros in each game for the past 2 years too, not much change huh?
Why does one class get to be played in every single fractal team to the point it has something stupid like 50% representation while another has 0,1%. FOR 2 YEARS.
Point me to a patch where they at least tried to fix ele? Last thing I remember was a nerf lol.
And fb? they go out of their way with ners to make sure they remain OP as kitten, I know. I play one.

 

Ele is dog kitten? Last time i check weaver was high up the list of dps.

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, zealex.9410 said:

Question why move from trash mov to trash mob and not instead tag everything and group them for aoe shatters?

With the way shatters work currently you would need them to retarget and there's still going to be a target cap. That's why mesmers usually use focus pulls already.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[zealex.9410]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

With the way shatters work currently you would need them to retarget and there's still going to be a target cap. That's why mesmers usually use focus pulls already.

Well the need to retarget isnt really an issue if you aoe them but sure tho not sure whats the crazy value of carryover shatters exceot that you can prepare them in advance.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but that doesn't mean Anet needs to lie to us EVEN if they aren't there to be our friends so they can make money. That's absurd. Listen to what you just posted ... Anet lies to players ... to maintain credibility. Really? Is lying to people how you maintain credibility with them? That doesn't make sense.

 

Are you new to the world? Companies do it all the time. They can't come out and say "Sorry, we actually have no idea what we're doing and just implemented this change on a hunch to test things out"; they'll come up with some fake thought process to justify a hunch or a misinterpretation of data, or later on to save face when a bad decision blows up on their face.

The entire point of a PR department is to spin pretty lies to make them look better, because making a bad decision but justifying it in a pretty way maintains more credibility than making a bad decision and justifying in an honest way that acknowledges it was a bad decision in the first place.

[Obtena.7952]

26 minutes ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

 

Are you new to the world?

I'm not debating with you or anyone if Anet lies to us. It's stupid. If you assume the worst about Anet's intentions towards the game and it's customers, you're doing so in bad faith anyways. There is no reason for anyone to waste time on people that think like that. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Zenith.7301]

Virtuoso:

1- A single mainhand weapon with only 3 new skills. All of them just do damage, nothing else.

2- Shatters do the same thing, except to a single target only in exchange for not dealing with the core flaws of clone ramp up and despawn on target death.

3- One utility skill that is an elementalist mist form equivalent, rest are aoe nukes, one does more damage to rooted targets while the other one applies vulnerability that will be capped anyways in raids, so wasted.

4- An undertuned elite.

 

Specter:

1- 5 actual new weapon skills. different utility+damage wells that are also a blink and buff allies.

2- Steal effect still in place, applies slow uptime better than baseline chronomancer despite slow being the iconic chronomancer exclusive condition.

3- Specter shroud with another 5 new skills.

 

And somehow Anet deems this a comparable investment of design resources....

[Leonidrex.5649]

6 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Ele is dog kitten? Last time i check weaver was high up the list of dps.

Ele is about same dps as firebrand more or less.
In return it
1 is less tanky
2 is much harder to play
3 has no real team utility outside of proj denial
4 grants no boons ( fb can also give might, quickness )
5 has less CC
6 FB mantra is broken, keeps entire team alive to a point where nobody even has to dodge anything when you have several
Ele can compare only against a golem which is why there is 1000x less of them then firebrands 
 

[Levetty.1279]

11 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Question why move from trash mov to trash mob and not instead tag everything and group them for aoe shatters?

Even if you can't for some reason GS2 to shatter is more then enough damage to delete trashmobs and that isn't even the only clone generation we have and it can be done quicker then the cast time of a bladesong. I don't know why people claim taking blades from one fight to the next is some massive game changer. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Even if you can't for some reason GS2 to shatter is more then enough damage to delete trashmobs and that isn't even the only clone generation we have and it can be done quicker then the cast time of a bladesong. I don't know why people claim taking blades from one fight to the next is some massive game changer. 

Because people don't actually play mesmer. 

It is slower to kill on Virt than it is on core since shatters on core have a small aoe radius instead of single target and it is easier to get enough resources to kill on core but w/e. People will keep spreading misinformation in order to get Virt to stay the kitten it is. 

[Infusion.7149]

You're also forgetting dagger hits 5  targets every auto and its 2 skill (Bladecall) is on 5 cooldown. Virtuoso has major issues in competitive modes , but claiming virtuoso is unplayable in PVE is kind of perplexing. Dagger auto + 5 cooldown AOE  blacecall is far shorter cooldown than shatters and on top of that you aren't reliant on slow for crit chance , you just need fury which is a gamechanger against trash mobs. Unlike "maximum tagging" power mirage it doesn't do shoddy sustained power damage either. I'm pretty sure you'd rather be stuck on dagger mainhand for 9s rather than greatsword after weapon swap too. All bladesongs have 5 target cap so I have no idea where people get the idea that it is single target.

That's why I linked Tipcat and Misterred's PVE videos on Virtuoso for context.
 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[zealex.9410]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You're also forgetting dagger hits 5  targets every auto and its 2 skill (Bladecall) is on 5 cooldown. Virtuoso has major issues in competitive modes , but claiming virtuoso is unplayable in PVE is kind of perplexing. Dagger auto + 5 cooldown AOE  blacecall is far shorter cooldown than shatters and on top of that you aren't reliant on slow for crit chance , you just need fury which is a gamechanger against trash mobs. Unlike "maximum tagging" power mirage it doesn't do shoddy sustained power damage either. I'm pretty sure you'd rather be stuck on dagger mainhand for 9s rather than greatsword after weapon swap too. All bladesongs have 5 target cap so I have no idea where people get the idea that it is single target.

That's why I linked Tipcat and Misterred's PVE videos on Virtuoso for context.
 

By dagger auto you mean the slow kitten projectile that travels ina straight line? I dont quite see the difference with just tagging everything with gs aa. Also nobody is saying its weak, but i very much believe other than parsing on golem its not in oractice that stronger than other mesmers.

 

Also while true the shatters can hit 5 targets the aoe for that is a line pierce which  is smaller than the clone shatter aoe, a pack of mobs need to be practically focus pulled to hit them all with your f1, thats not the case with the clone aoe.

Its why i suggested that f1 shoud be a ground targeted aoe skill instead of a mob targeted line pierce one.