What are the trade offs for each Elite Specialization?

[VocalThought.9835]

After the release of PoF, ANet stated that each Elite Specialization would have a penalty from it's Core State to keep the Core State viable and avoid the Elite from being "the better version". So what are the trade offs for each elite? Shouldn't it be stated in the minor adapt trait for the trait line? If you know what they are or have an idea of what it should be, please let me know.

Edited October 25, 2021 by VocalThought.9835
Grammar

[Dadnir.5038]

What's lost:

Virtuoso: No clone, so the mesmer won't be able to capitalize on the deception that the clones can create.

Harbinger: No 2nd health bar and blight reducing max health by up to 50%.

Willbender: Virtues passive is baked into the active which mean there is no longer a "passive" effect. (or at least it's how I understand it)

Vindicator: The spec capitalize on the dodge which is not a traditional one.

Bladesworn: Lose traditional bursts and have a mandatory weaponset.

Catalyst: No trade-off only powercreep and it's not even enough to make it a 'strong elementalist'.

Specter: Lose access to F1 mobility, F2 bundle and have reduced initiative.

Untamed: Same as Catalyst. Ah... Let's be generous and say that you lose a bit of control over your pet.

Mechanist: No toolbelt skills and a crippling CD on the mech if you don't make sure it take no damage.

What's gained:

Virtuoso: Your shatter ressource is no longer tied to a specific target.

Harbinger: LF to health regen and some instant mobility.

Willbender: Lot of instant mobility.

Vindicator: A new OP dodge.

Bladesworn: A strong mandatory weapon with gameplay defining burst.

Catalyst: a shiny AoE on it's F key and a few unique self-buffs that aren't boons.

Specter: a "shroud" and access to barrier (most of it is restricted to a single allie thought...).

Untamed: Potent wide area skills at melee range.

Mechanist: A pet that inherit some of your stats.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Dadnir.5038

Forgot this, loses:

IP

Instant shatters

Shatter damage

Distortion

Trackable shatters

Gain:

1200 range

One block

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

30 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Dadnir.5038

Forgot this, loses:

IP

Instant shatters

Shatter damage

Distortion

Trackable shatters

Gain:

1200 range

One block

You're exagerating, shatters weren't exactly "instant" as the illusion were predictably moving toward their target before shattering. The shatter on virtuoso deal damage, but yes there is no longer clones to applys some conditions. You don't "lose distorsion", you get a 3 second block and a channeled distorsion on the utility skills (if anything, between the block frame, many aegis and the channeled distorsion, the virtuoso have a lot more "damage nullifying" potential than any other mesmer spec).

I would say that the issue is that the devs have accustomed the mesmer players to have shatters skills that are relatively similar accross spec and you now think "The skill is different, I lose something" while in fact you don't.

Fondamentally, a mesmer complaining that virtuoso "lose distorsion" with virtuoso is like a Necromancer complaining that he "lose tainted shackle" with reaper, the new skill have the same "purpose" but a different mechanism, that's all.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

18 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're exagerating, shatters weren't exactly "instant" as the illusion were predictably moving toward their target before shattering. The shatter on virtuoso deal damage, but yes there is no longer clones to applys some conditions. You don't "lose distorsion", you get a 3 second block and a channeled distorsion on the utility skills (if anything, between the block frame, many aegis and the channeled distorsion, the virtuoso have a lot more "damage nullifying" potential than any other mesmer spec).

I would say that the issue is that the devs have accustomed the mesmer players to have shatters skills that are relatively similar accross spec and you now think "The skill is different, I lose something" while in fact you don't.

Fondamentally, a mesmer complaining that virtuoso "lose distorsion" with virtuoso is like a Necromancer complaining that he "lose tainted shackle" with reaper, the new skill have the same "purpose" but a different mechanism, that's all.

Core shatters were instant cast in the sense that they could be cast while CCed or while using other skills, which Virtuoso ones can't.

 

Also, the channeled, interruptible block and channeled distortion are nowhere near as powerful as core distortion. For a start, one of them requires you to give up a utility skill to use and doesn't let you use other skills when it's active, because it's channeled, but the other has a cast time, cannot be activated when CCed or while casting other skills, does not let you use other skills when it's active, and can be interrupted by unblockable CC. The new F4 shatter is nowhere near as strong as core F4.

 

Personally, I don't even like the way that core F4 works, I think it's probably badly designed for the game and should have some drawback like all other invulns, but to say that Virtuoso F4 is on the same level as core F4 is laughable. The small damage you gain is nothing in comparison to the sheer number of things you lose.

[Adamixos.6785]

Willbender is straight-up worse than core guard. You forgot to add that.  What you describe as mobility gain is actually clunky animations and more animation locks. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Adamixos.6785

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Personally, I don't even like the way that core F4 works, I think it's probably badly designed for the game and should have some drawback like all other invulns, but to say that Virtuoso F4 is on the same level as core F4 is laughable. The small damage you gain is nothing in comparison to the sheer number of things you lose.

I didn't say it was on the same level, I said it serve the same purpose.

Like I said, mesmers are used to e-spec that grant them shatters that are very similar if not the same as core shatter and they can't stand the fact that a new e-spec "shatter" this prejudice. It's not a "drawback" to have new skills, a drawback is losing the "clone mechanism" (which attach itself to a specific target) in favor of the "blade mechanism" who can outlive the target it was built on.

Virtuoso F4 is balanced for what it does, you have a 3s block frame with some aoe damage on 3/5th of the CD of distorsion that give 1 to 4s evade frame (nothing more nothing less).

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, Adamixos.6785 said:

Willbender is straight-up worse than core guard. You forgot to add that.  What you describe as mobility gain is actually clunky animations and more animation locks. 

Being straight up worse isn't a drawback, it's poor balance.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

19 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I didn't say it was on the same level, I said it serve the same purpose.

Like I said, mesmers are used to e-spec that grant them shatters that are very similar if not the same as core shatter and they can't stand the fact that a new e-spec "shatter" this prejudice. It's not a "drawback" to have new skills, a drawback is losing the "clone mechanism" (which attach itself to a specific target) in favor of the "blade mechanism" who can outlive the target it was built on.

Virtuoso F4 is balanced for what it does, you have a 3s block frame with some aoe damage on 3/5th of the CD of distorsion that give 1 to 4s evade frame (nothing more nothing less).

But if it serves the same purpose, how does it not have massive drawbacks compared to core?

 

A drawback is a disadvantage or inconvenience, which in this case means something that one skill can't do that its replacement/former skill can. And since we agree that they serve the same purpose, it is completely fair to compare the skills directly.

So looking at the drawbacks on Core F4:
- Does not do damage

- Has longer cooldown

Looking at the drawbacks on Virtuoso F4:

- Does not provide condition immunity

- Can be interrupted

- Can't be cast while CCed or casting skills

- Doesn't let you use actions for half of the cast time

- Doesn't protect against unblockable CC or attacks

 

As a tool to be used, Core F4 is clearly much stronger than Virtuoso. It's not just different, it's significantly weaker in what it provides. It can be used more frequently that's true, but unblockable CC is just so abundant in the game (and particularly in the meta) that you don't get any significant value out of this defensive (and the pulsing damage around you can actually work against you, because it means that engis and eles can interrupt you with shield and shocking aura lol).

 

Also, how is replacing clones with blades a pure drawback? The thing you mention (blades outlasting their target while clones don't) is a pure upside in my opinion. If anything replacing clones with blades was a tradeoff done fairly (since it gives back fairly for what it takes), whereas the new shatters you get are tradeoffs done unfairly, as they have significant drawbacks compared to their core variants (not being able to use them while CCed is such a significant drawback).

[Loading.4503]

Have you not seen warrior? The trade off is you dont get to play the game while you charge up for 3 days

[ShadowInTheVoid.9183]

12 hours ago, Loading.4503 said:

Have you not seen warrior? The trade off is you dont get to play the game while you charge up for 3 days

Warrior wasn't too bad. It was a slow charge but with a decent payoff.
Catalyst was a joke, nothing lives long enough to charge up energy and even if you got a serious fight and did build it up their orb lasted 2 seconds and did nothing.

Warrior could be tweaked, Catalyst needed a fundamental change.

[DemonCrypto.6792]

decent payoff ? seriously in pvp dragon trigger is the biggest "hey come and cc me pls" i have ever seen in this game. 
there is no other class who have that kind of long windup for 1 strike and loose everything if it fails.(compared to all war specs and core, there is not one of them who loose all for one burst)

Edited October 26, 2021 by DemonCrypto.6792

[Raolin Soulherder.3195]

Mechanist- practically everything

No toolbelts. lose 1/2 of stunbreaks and a ton of other functionality. lose Elite, because you have to dedicate it to re-summoning the Mech once the Mech gets melted. lose 1/3 traits once Mech goes down. 90% of utilities are handicapped w/o toolbelt. Lose control abilities, since so much positioning and damage is outsourced to the mech, which has stupid AI.  Lose responsiveness since mech attacks are so slow (especially projectiles). Lose fight-initiative since mech won't follow you off of WvW walls until you're very far away from it. Lose build customization. Lose sanity w/ the continuous hovering sound-effect. 

not to mention what all engi's have already lost, which is weapon swaps. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Raolin Soulherder.3195

[oscuro.9720]

Warrior Loses:

Weapon Swap 

Burst skills on one weapon

70 more adrenaline required for burst skill

Stationary charging required for using burst skill

Warrior Gains:

Gun Saber as second weapon set

Dragon trigger kit when in gun saber

 

Warrior bros, am I forgetting anything?

[Substance E.4852]

Untamed's trade off is that it's somehow worse than the base class

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Substance E.4852

[Clockless.2503]

On 10/25/2021 at 9:00 PM, Loading.4503 said:

Have you not seen warrior? The trade off is you dont get to play the game while you charge up for 3 days

That's only if you are looking to use the full charge.  It seemed to work pretty well if you were willing to accept a smaller payoff and more frequent shots.

[Arklite.4013]

I understand a lot of the frustration with the new elite specs being underwhelming, but I think it's good for the game for some of them to be worse than core. If core specs are worse than every elite spec, there's no reason to play them.

[Shadowflare.2759]

5 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

I understand a lot of the frustration with the new elite specs being underwhelming, but I think it's good for the game for some of them to be worse than core. If core specs are worse than every elite spec, there's no reason to play them.

if new elite specs are straight up worse than core, as opposed to just being different via trade-offs, then there's literally no reason to have those elite specs.

[Arklite.4013]

59 minutes ago, Shadowflare.2759 said:

if new elite specs are straight up worse than core, as opposed to just being different via trade-offs, then there's literally no reason to have those elite specs.

 

I never said they couldn't have trade-offs. People will still compare them and call one worse than the other, even if they're fundamentally different via trade-offs. What matters is that they offer a different way to play the game, and fortunately the forum users are the vocal minority and don't represent the opinions of the bulk of the playerbase

[Shadowflare.2759]

6 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

 

I never said they couldn't have trade-offs. People will still compare them and call one worse than the other, even if they're fundamentally different via trade-offs. What matters is that they offer a different way to play the game, and fortunately the forum users are the vocal minority and don't represent the opinions of the bulk of the playerbase

you literally said

Quote

I think it's good for the game for some of them to be worse than core.

Being worse than core means worse, not just different because of trade offs.

 

There is literally no reason an elite spec should ever be worse than a core spec. at worst it should be equal. So I'm not sure why you'd be happy that some of them could be worse than core.

[Arklite.4013]

4 hours ago, Shadowflare.2759 said:

you literally said

Being worse than core means worse, not just different because of trade offs.

 

There is literally no reason an elite spec should ever be worse than a core spec. at worst it should be equal. So I'm not sure why you'd be happy that some of them could be worse than core.

You don't think the specs being equal is a little ambitious? Dragonhunter and core guard actually have very similar fractal performance, but nobody ever asks for core guard. The margins can be as slim as they want but people will always say you're at a disadvantage for not playing the best available spec, so why not make the best available spec the one that's available to everyone, or at least don't make it the worst one

[Shadowflare.2759]

19 hours ago, Arklite.4013 said:

You don't think the specs being equal is a little ambitious? Dragonhunter and core guard actually have very similar fractal performance, but nobody ever asks for core guard. The margins can be as slim as they want but people will always say you're at a disadvantage for not playing the best available spec, so why not make the best available spec the one that's available to everyone, or at least don't make it the worst one

You're talking about something a bit different. The reality for the past 2 expansions is that at the end of the day, Anet wants to sell as much of the expansion packs as possible,  so they have an interest in making the elite specs better to incentivize players to buy them instead of just sticking to the core specs that they give away for free.

 

What I'm saying is that even if they didn't have that financial interest, why would they ever release something new that is worse? Players definitely won't be interested in playing a kitten spec (as you yourself pointed out with your example), so what benefit would there be for anyone for Anet to spend all those hours and effort working on a strictly worse spec for an expansion?

 

A strictly worse spec has no reason to exist.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

On 10/27/2021 at 6:28 AM, oscuro.9720 said:

Warrior Loses:

Weapon Swap 

Burst skills on one weapon

70 more adrenaline required for burst skill

Stationary charging required for using burst skill

Warrior Gains:

Gun Saber as second weapon set

Dragon trigger kit when in gun saber

 

Warrior bros, am I forgetting anything?

Right on the mark brother 

[Mik.3401]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:11 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

You're exagerating, shatters weren't exactly "instant" as the illusion were predictably moving toward their target before shattering. The shatter on virtuoso deal damage, but yes there is no longer clones to applys some conditions. You don't "lose distorsion", you get a 3 second block and a channeled distorsion on the utility skills (if anything, between the block frame, many aegis and the channeled distorsion, the virtuoso have a lot more "damage nullifying" potential than any other mesmer spec).

I would say that the issue is that the devs have accustomed the mesmer players to have shatters skills that are relatively similar accross spec and you now think "The skill is different, I lose something" while in fact you don't.

Fondamentally, a mesmer complaining that virtuoso "lose distorsion" with virtuoso is like a Necromancer complaining that he "lose tainted shackle" with reaper, the new skill have the same "purpose" but a different mechanism, that's all.

Accounting for illusions running towards a target is a bad use of illusions. If you go for a spike you do it in melee range and then go back to safe range. That’s the unique play style Mesmer offers.

Virtuoso does not have this instant spike capability. Just as other Mesmers it doesn’t have reliable sustained damage either in competitive. So at the end it is just worse, just at range using only projectiles which can be reflected - that’s the cherry on top.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

22 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

Accounting for illusions running towards a target is a bad use of illusions. If you go for a spike you do it in melee range and then go back to safe range. That’s the unique play style Mesmer offers.

Virtuoso does not have this instant spike capability. Just as other Mesmers it doesn’t have reliable sustained damage either in competitive. So at the end it is just worse, just at range using only projectiles which can be reflected - that’s the cherry on top.

Not only that. 

The block he refers too is a 1sec and half block, not 3sec. The 3sec part is the offensive part. 

The animation is so disconnected that you think you're blocking and you're not. 

It's one of the worse if not the worst blocks in game due to that offensive yet garbage damage part which will get you revealed, stun, etc. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735