Do you think this will be the last expansion for GW2?

[Freya.9075]

3 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Not in a fashion that feels like a natural development that makes sense, and that assessment has nothing to do with people wanting the game to be like GW1. It mixes not only genres but also time periods that cannot co-exist in a credible way.

This post sums it up nicely:

 

It might not feel natural for you but that doesn’t mean it’s not natural. That’s the beauty of fantasy games. It doesn’t have to make perfect sense. Anet wants gw2 to go that direction and some ppl will hate it, some ppl will love it and some will be neutral about it. 
 

gw2 is 250 years after gw1. Look at the changes 250 years ago compared to today. The difference is huge. And the technology that evolved only the past 50 years. Imagine how it will be in another 50 years. Maybe gw2 had a similar spike in technology. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Freya.9075

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Kossage.9072 said:

As long as the company earns enough revenue and the powers that be decide to keep developing the game (even if/when other projects emerge from the studio), we should keep getting expansions. If older games such as EverQuest 2 and even the original EverQuest still get expansions, I don't see why ANet can't deliver such even if some far future expansions might end up being smaller in scope due to resource allocation reasons.

Everquest and Everquest 2 keep getting expansions because they have significantly lower development costs due to their ages/lower graphical standards.

1 hour ago, Kossage.9072 said:

Cutting up and sacrificing the sadly rushed Icebrood Saga in favor of End of Dragons is enough proof that the suits who gifted the devs the opportunity to work on an expansion (while seemingly wanting the expac done now rather than allowing the saga to run its natural course with additional zones before leading the story to EoD) aren't happy with just the living world model's revenue and player interest, and it makes sense financially. While I would've been thrilled to have a 20+ episode Icebrood Saga (as there definitely was more than enough charr, norn, asura, dwarf, dredge, skritt, jotun, quaggan, centaur, human etc. lore and recurring characters as well as newcomer heroes and villains for the planned Jormag and Primordus storyline) to truly flesh out the Far Shiverpeaks, charr lands, the Tarnished Coast, Woodland Cascades, and the Depths of Tyria and allow us players to receive said content for "free" over the span of many years, many (if not most) players preferred the true and tested paid box expansion model with living world seasons in between, so here we are.

There was never going to be a 20 episodes IBS. IBS was going to be 4 more major releases, and likely one more Vision of the Past, for a total number of 11 releases. a 2 parter map(ala Bjora or Drizzlewood) in the Centaur homelands for Primordus' invasion, and another 2 parter map around Avil Rock for Dragonstorm And, like, the Norn, Charr, Asura, and Dawrf, stuff was done before Champions even started.

1 hour ago, Kossage.9072 said:

Who's to say that more Bangars, Jokos and Faolains can't emerge from the shadows? Will Aurene's ever-expanding Crystal Bloom religious cult turn fanatical in their worship of her as certain IRL religions became (imagine if Sons of Svanir start gradually viewing Aurene as the new Dragon and the mightiest predator on Tyria despite her being a "girly" dragon, and they start killing people in her name to honor her?), will we see new balancers rising to protect the All and each of these Elder Dragon replacements gathering similar cults around themselves?

There is only one Elder Dragon replacement, Aurene. Not multiple, and only one "cult" which isn't even a cult.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Fueki.4753]

9 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

Wow classic might have had a good start indeed. Many ppl went for the nostalgic feeling it gave. However if you check the 2021 November player count it’s clear it lost the player base and basically flopped. Ppl realized it’s not the same anymore. The changes to the game made the classic game feel slow and boring.

A great deal of people also dropped their subscriptions and boycott World of Warcraft due to the overall state of Blizzard (and Activision Blizzard King in general) with all the allegations, mostly mistreatment of women (and even theft of mother's milk).

This means, recent player numbers don't actually reflect the viability of WoW (classic) as a product.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Kossage.9072]

12 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Everquest and Everquest 2 keep getting expansions because they have significantly lower development costs due to their ages/lower graphical standards.

Indeed, but that doesn't mean ANet can't adapt a similar approach in the far future; they've shown during the Icebrood Saga that they can get stuff done even with a smaller dev crew as they gradually siphoned people to work on EoD while still managing to deliver maps with new enemies like Bjora Marches, Drizzlewood Coast, Forging Steel, Darkrime Delves, and Dragonstorm. Given the typical GW2 expansion development of 2-3 or so years and how each expansion has had at least four zones (packed with events, collections, minidungeons etc. as well as some major features like a new class, elite specs, gliding, mounts, skiffs, fishing), they can reduce the workload for future stuff if they only ship some future expansions with just, say, three zones at most, which cuts away needed dev time for creating a fourth detailed zone and use that saved work force for living world content or other content like raids/fractals/strikes/drms/etc if needed. If they keep the main storyline for future expansions short like the HoT story path was with its few and mostly short instances, they don't even have to worry about that complex story instances either (whereas EoD seems to ship with some major story instance blockbuster setpieces based on dev teases). As long as the devs manage to find a decent enough balance with repeatable and rewarding enough map-wide meta events and other features (e.g. collections, side quests tied to Arborstone and Sun's Refuge type of upgradeable instance stuff etc.) to encourage people to return to the zones for several years, as well as allowing some single player oriented exploration and safe areas in these zones for people to marvel at map art and ambient worldbuilding without being attacked every other second by resilient armies of mobs with a huge aggro radius, they'll do fine.

The biggest issue I'd see them facing under such a scenario are the huge voice actor costs (and the resulting localization and translation fees) because almost everything needs to be voiced in GW2 which is packed with dialogue worth of several dozen novels (due to the living open world and focus on events with a lot of ambient dialogue) as opposed to many of the older and even more recent MMOs (such as FFXIV which, even after its budget increase for more voiced stuff for Shadowbringers and Endwalker story content, still delivers much of the story in text only form and even in many voiceless cutscenes without having to worry about using 10 high profile VAs like Nolan North per language to voice the main character as the Warrior of Light is "mute"). If they can figure out where to cut their VA budget to reduce those costs while still making the world feel alive and the story coherent enough for those players who only focus on voiced story content over written story content, they'll have things covered cost-wise for the most part.

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There was never going to be a 20 episodes IBS. IBS was going to be 4 more major releases, and likely one more Vision of the Past, for a total number of 11 releases. a 2 parter map(ala Bjora or Drizzlewood) in the Centaur homelands for Primordus' invasion, and another 2 parter map around Avil Rock for Dragonstorm And, like, the Norn, Charr, Asura, and Dawrf, stuff was done before Champions even started.

Yeah, even under the best possible financial and development circumstances I doubt we'd have ever gotten 20+ episodes worth of story and lore and worldbuilding for the Icebrood Saga because that's not how ANet has historically operated with story releases. Joko and Kralkatorrik could've easily had a season each instead of half a season (although the devs' hands were forced on that issue as they were unsure if GW2 would continue after S4 so they needed to wrap the post-PoF loose ends with the given timeframe as stated by Jessica Price and Tom Abernathy), and the White Mantle and human civil war stuff with mursaat involvement and Livia could've easily been the only focus of Season 3 if they had wanted to (but they had to involve other plots there too in order to set up the PoF story premise as revealed by Scott McGough and Matthew Medina).

However, the saga was shaping up to be longer than the typical six-episode season given the teases (the confirmed cut centaur content that likely would've encompassed at least one half of a two-episode zone, the teased krait and norn naval content in the saga announcement trailer, and the same trailer teasing some conflict at the Eye of the North and how there was even a datamined map of a bigger zone encompassing EotN and Gwen's Garden with a frozen lake area somewhat similar to Dragonstorm's icy lake which makes me wonder if that was their original planned location for Dragonstorm given Aurene's teases in Ep2 of huge magical confluence at the Scrying Pool that attracted her there), and curiously Episode 4 even ended with an instance titled "Epilogue" in EotN coinciding with Jormag's awakening and Aurene's foreboding words of the future before we were rushed to the shortened Champions that served as an extended Episode 5 integrating other planned episodes' content into its runtime. It would be fascinating to learn what the devs' original plans were for the saga before the budget cuts, and if we would've indeed only gotten 4 more episodes (and if the krait and norn naval content would've been integrated into the second half of that planned centaur zone, or if it actually teased the possible inclusion of the Sea of Desperation zone and the ruins of icebrood-infested Gunnar's Hold as GW1 fanservice) to set up and conclude Primordus and Jormag stuff or if they were intending for there to be Acts 2 and 3 (with 4-ish zones each) because saga prologue to Ep4 felt only like the first act (hence the Ep4 "Epilogue") of a three act story structure to me for a total of 12 or so episodes with two or so visions of the past (one being Braham's Primal Kiln adventure, and the other vision possibly being a flashback of the spirit-empowered Asgeir's confrontation with Jormag and Owl's vision of hope to set up the later Spirit of the Wild stuff).

All I'm saying is that theoretically there was enough lore to easily support a 20+ episode storyline with all the races and teased subplots (from GW1 to GW2 personal story all the way to the recent festival updates and earliest Icebrood Saga episodes setting stuff up such as the emergence of female norn followers of Jormag to challenge the Svanir), not that ANet would ever have tackled that content in such depth even in optimal circumstances because historically living world seasons have never been that lengthy to begin with and playerbase likely wouldn't have tolerated several years of living world content before the studio tackled another expansion.

Interestingly many of the Depths of Tyria, Far Shiverpeaks and charr plots can technically still be visited later if the writers decide to do so, they just have to do it without the Jormag and Primordus influence and instead show these locations post-Dragonstorm as we witness asuran and norn resettlement efforts and charr recovery process as we run into new threats from the inside (e.g. High Councillor Flax's plans for asuran world domination in a post-dragon world once he gets his hands on the lost knowledge of Quora Sum etc.) and the outside (if High Inquisitor Maut or someone else leads the Inquest which is the only evil organization from core Tyria whose leadership we haven't really defeated yet, the power vacuum among the Spirits of the Wild while the Four Great Spirits are weakened and recovering, and if the ominous prophecy surrounding Knut Whitebear and his family comes to pass, and the fate of the fire bow which Ryland hid somewhere and which Braham swore to get back someday as seen in Champions, the resurgence of the Separatists as teased by Malice, and the return of Adelbern so he can use the weakened charr state to launch a massive ghost invasion, to mention a few of the loose plot threads the devs could follow up on).

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There is only one Elder Dragon replacement, Aurene. Not multiple, and only one "cult" which isn't even a cult.

This is a topic better suited to be discussed in the other thread that already explores the idea of the balance of the All and what it means, as well as Aurene's role in it, but I'll write my reply here for anyone curious enough who doesn't want to jump between threads as it and the emergence of "dragon guilds" technically still fits into the topic of this thread as it could be the key to exploring new expansion and living world stories as I suggested in my earlier post.

While Champions discussed the balance between Jormag and Primordus and how neither one could be allowed to gain the upper hand in their empowered state lest we suffer a worse repeat of the Zhaitan-Mordremoth imbalance (hence our need to kill both rather than just one), earlier story all the way from Season 2 to PoF suggested that the balance of the Antikytheria system is far more complex than just keeping the opposite pairs of dragons equal.

The Apostate, one of Abaddon's Margonite followers who went rogue and had access to some of the god's deepest secrets which led to the fellow being hunted by his fellow Margonites, basically explained that the All and the balance (consisting of the cosmic Antikytheria mechanism which is tied to the six balancers) requires the magnetic push/pull of opposites to keep spinning, or else Tyria will fall off into the void. Think of the Antikytheria as a perpetual motion machine of unfathomable complexity; however, this machine needs the magnets that pull towards each other and reject one another in an endless dance to keep the perpetual motion going. If too many of these magnets (i.e. balancers tied to the six Tyrian "spirit realms" with two or more spheres of influence each) are removed, the motion starts to get shaky as it can no longer be properly balanced. If all the magnets are reduced to just one (Aurene), there's no opposite force to push back against her, and thus the Antikytheria stops moving, will tilt, and all life will fall into the void.

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If you're not mistaken, this ancient tome was written by someone known as the Apostate. It appears to describe something similar to what you saw in your vision of the Eternal Alchemy.
The author calls it the Antikytheria, describing it as a cosmic mechanism made of many parts, all spinning around a central body known in ancient Krytan as Thyria.
Six large bodies orbit the world, existing in primal symbiosis. The energies move with the push and pull of positive and negative, ever in motion.
The Apostate says one thing that is especially troubling... "Should the energies become imbalanced, the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void." It's probably a metaphor. (Source)

Now, interestingly Taimi theorized back in Season 3 and PoF that the world couldn't suffer a third Elder Dragon's death without a replacement, hence our need to stop Balthazar. Of course the interesting thing here is that Balthy would've just consumed the dragon(s') magic and then hopped off into the Mists, and we know that an elder balancer's or their replacement's extended stay in the Mists doesn't destabilize Tyria as long as the balancer isn't killed there and the magic leaks out (as stated in War Eternal), otherwise Kralk's extended Mists trip would've doomed Tyria back in Season 4. The bigger problem may have been Balthy's intention to drain at least two dragons of magic simultaneously, but even that is put into question given how the world has seemingly survived the demises of Jormag and Primordus without replacements.

There's a possibility that Glint, the Forgotten, the Exalted, the Apostate, Taimi, Ogden, and the gods were wrong all along and it is alright to kill as many balancers as we want as long as at least one pair of opposites remains in the system to keep the Antikytheria spinning. This might be why the deep sea dragon isn't a problem we can solve with violence without a replacement as there's a likely possibility that DSD is Aurene/Kralk's opposite in the All (just like Prim and Jormy were confirmed to be, and Zhaity and Mordy were heavily teased to be based on the unstable abomination's reactions to Zhaity and Mordy-infused grubs' explosions in its vicinity) and is that negative effect to counter her positive effect. This might be one of the reasons why EoD logo depicts two dragons in the logo as yin/yang symbology: not only could DSD actually be twins who are one if they want to tie into the Lyssa analogue (after all, each GW2 expansion logo has always depicted the main dragon antagonist, so why include two dragons when one of those dragons doesn't even resemble Aurene, unless there's more to DSD than meets the eye?), but it shows that the world needs that constant push/pull to stay alive.

Glint never intended Aurene to be the "be all and end all" solution to the problem, and Glint had the gift of prophecy that extended so far that she already saw the optimal outcome for the Dragonstorm conundrum and thus couldn't reveal the truth in order to not upset the optimal timeline Dr. Strange style (as explained by the Exalted envoy Dulann in EotN); in short, Glint had had a prophecy and knew a scion (Aurene or otherwise) would absorb multiple dragons' magics and replace Kralk but only him to fulfill one part of the Legacy. Jormag likewise only calls Aurene the Crystal Dragon like Kralkatorrik and not as whatever an amalgamation of Death, Plant and Crystal would be, which suggests that Zhaity and Mordy's magics are still out there, unclaimed by potential successors...we don't even know where the HoT end cinematic's western ley line of Mordy magic went from Dragon's Stand although the Priory world map indicates it might've hit the so far unseen western Sunrise Crest continent (Doern Velazquez's potential homeland as the continent had naval trade routes to Battle Isles and thus to Cantha and other continents?) across the ocean.

Taimi already discussed the multiple replacements idea during the Living World Return content, mirroring what Sadizi had said, and even foreshadows the deep sea dragon stuff as a counter to Aurene.

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Taimi: The Exalted believed Glint's scions—plural—would shoulder the burden, but we only have Aurene now. But we're still here. Either she can handle it, or something else is out there. Or time is limited.

Perhaps the reason why Aurene couldn't consume most of the magic unleashed from Dragonstorm (when typically Elder Dragons can do so as seen with Kralk absorbing the majority of Balthy's magic at ground zero) was not because of her Prismatic nature that might've prevented proper magic absorption but it could also have to deal with the Antikytheria mechanism panicking about losing two balancers at once and forcibly redirecting the magic (with or without Joon's influence depending on what significance those six tubes lighting up with dragonjade energy have in the EoD trailer) to Aurene's opposite all the way south to balance the scales and keep the magnetic positive and negative energies in motion.

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Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.

Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.

Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.

Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.

Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose. (Source)

What's notable about the speech above is that Sadizi uses not only a plural term for future balancers but the term "entity" rather than "scion"; he had used the latter earlier in the instance to discuss Glint's offspring specifically. So at least Sadizi and his Forgotten masters (who collaborated with Glint) seem to have intended there to be multiple balancers, some of whom might not even be Glint's offspring but other worthy beings as long as such beings can connect with a mortal champion (or champions) to share the burden of magic with and to empathize with their "lessers" whom they must safeguard.

Likewise, the last Forgotten's speech in Tarir suggests the Legacy is more than just Glint's offspring.

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"We do not have the divine resources needed to imbue a new Bloodstone with enough magic to prevent Tyria from declining into a state of primitive adversity.

And so we allied with Glaust, a magical being of great power, to find a way.

Glaust has been known by many names, and even we do not know her true name. She is called Glint in these modern times and she entrusted us with using her legacy for Tyria.
We, however, have no guarantee—only hope—that by her legacy we will save Tyria from the desiccation of its magic. [...]
Glint's legacy is far more than just her offspring, and you must protect it all.

The legacy's potential will only be realized in the fullness of time when all its pieces have developed and become defined in response to the world around them.

The legacy's most essential elements will seed the new dawn of civilization. This is the precious treasure we leave in your hands. You must preserve it with no expectation of laurels.
You do it to ensure that this world you love continues on after you're gone. Glint's dream of a harmonious future can come to pass. Now you carry the torch of her benevolence." (Source)

The speech mentions that the legacy has "essential elements" and that "all its pieces" (plural) must develop and become defined. This could refer to more babies bonding with a champion like Aurene or just some enlightenment for already mature beings (if, say, the Pale Tree, Malyck's Tree, Kuunavang, Albax or Shiny could become new replacements) as the wording is ambiguous there. If the EoD story reveals the saltsprays to be scions of the deep sea dragon somehow (as there is lore about the legend of a "dragon king" who wanted "his" saltspray children to be safe from humans via a pact with Luxons) and if the anniversary art book's curious phrase of the Pale Tree being the "sapling of Mordremoth" also suggests some scion shenanigans, these could be potential other replacements depending on the rules of what beings can safely replace Elder Dragons without either dying or going mad from the influx of so much magic into their bodies. If Aurene, or Vlast, were ever intended to be the sole solution(s) to the problem (as Glint foresaw the future to a great extent all the way to the present day of End of Dragons if not beyond, and the prophecy was apparently unavoidable as seen with Kralk and Primordus and Jormag's fates), Glint and the Forgotten would never have discussed the need for multiple replacements.

We still don't even know the fate of the other eggs as there were dozens in GW1 time as we only know the fates of Aurene and Vlast from their dozens of siblings. Given how Factions suggested that there had been a Forgotten presence in Cantha, how the first Zephyrites formed from Elonians and Canthans specifically, and how many regions with heavy Forgotten activity had been shown with nurseries near slumbering Elder Dragons to rear Glint's scions in (Tarir in Maguuma to contain Aurene to replace Mordremoth with; Kesho in the Crystal Desert to contain Vlast likely to replace Zhaitan with; no word on any nurseries near Kralkatorrik, Primordus and Jormag but not impossible as we know from charr lore that Forgotten also lived in Ascalon and battled the charr successfully before the Forgotten worldwide were recalled to the desert, and we never explored the Depths of Tyria and Far Shiverpeaks in full to know if some Exalted hadn't built nurseries near the slumbering dragons there in the past 250 years just like the Exalted had a presence at Thunderhead Keep). It wouldn't surprise me if the Master of Peace's visit to Cantha that coincided with him fetching Aurene from someone with a deep voice (Vlast or someone else) could've also been not just about establishing trade contact with Cantha but also about delivering another egg, the third scion of Glint, to Cantha to be looked after by some Exalted until it's time to put the next phase of the Legacy plan in motion. After all, it is curious to me that Taimi brings up the plan for Glint's multiple scions for the Legacy in the recent dialogue (despite Sadizi's speech suggesting that more than the scions could be involved) when we only ever knew of Vlast and Aurene...unless it's foreshadowing that we'll finally learn about the fates of the other eggs. Perhaps Kuunavang and Albax, if they were ever in contact with Glint before the latter's demise, can share some knowledge on this matter with us. 🙂

And this leads us to why the future "dragon guild" idea may not be as farfetched as it may seem. We've had multiple sources, now even Taimi, suggesting the idea of multiple replacements. If the theory holds true that Tyria needs at least one opposing magnetic pair for the Antikytheria to function, and if the deep sea dragon must die as per Glint's Legacy plan (even if the deep sea dragon could turn out to be an even more tragic antagonist than Jormag if we explore the forming of Torment and how Aurene may succumb to it too based on Tom Abernathy's teases and Glint's dire warnings about how important it is to share the burden with champions), that means that the rise of another replacemet is inevitable unless there will be more reveals in EoD about how this might not be the case. Regardless of how the dragon saga ends, Aurene has established a cult around herself that is now forming into a proper religion with the integration of the Zaishen who essentially view as a neo-Balthazar of sorts. I for one hope that, regardless of if we only have Aurene or multiple replacements by the time of the fourth expansion, we get to explore the trappings of such widespread religious ideologies and how some unsavory people may try to benefit from it for their own ends and we see schisms forming in this new church (similar to the Orthodox and Catholic divide for Christianity, and the Shia and Sunni divide for Islam, among many others) and how Aurene will handle mortal ambitions, misunderstandings, fears and greed and whether she will try to not get too involved or stomp her foot down to tell them to get along. It could lead to some fascinating discussion about the pros and cons of zealous faith and how the rest of the world reacts to this international "megaguild" centering on Aurene and if more influential people than just Bangar are starting to get uneasy about one organization holding so much military and political power on Tyria and if this utopian "dawn of a new civilization" will be beneficial in the long run or if we're one step away from benevolent dictatorship, especially as we now know that prophecies have been written in advance (although we don't know the source) and that these prophecies are unavoidable (as seen with the fate surrounding Aurene's inevitable ascension) so free will no longer exists.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Kossage.9072

[Ashantara.8731]

14 hours ago, Freya.9075 said:

It might not feel natural for you but that doesn’t mean it’s not natural.

Did you even care to read the post I linked?

Do that so we can stop running in circles.

[Sobx.1758]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:54 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

@OP: No, but likely the last one I bought. My characters simply aren't dressed properly for a cyberpunk world - a shame.

Putting the whole "it doesn't fit!" argument, here's what I don't exactly understand:

You claim "this is likely the last one you buy because your character isn't dressed properly for a cyperpunk world" (not even taking that literally, you just don't like the direction of the theme/style -ok, w/e,  to each their own). But... you're already complaining about upcomming expansion being "cyberpunk-ish" and yet you're buying it. Where's the logic here? The style is either enough to make you not buy the expansion or it isn't, how can it be both?

Edited December 19, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Ashantara.8731]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Putting the whole "it doesn't fit!" argument, here's what I don't exactly understand:

You claim "this is likely the last one you buy because your character isn't dressed properly for a cyperpunk world" [...]

No sense of humor? I was merely taunting.

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But... you're already complaining about upcomming expansion being "cyberpunk-ish" and yet you're buying it.

I bought it. Past tense. That was before I knew it would have that design factor.

And yes, I am going to play it, since I have paid for it. It can still be an okay expansion, perhaps even good story-wise. I loved the Arborstone preview.

What I am complaining about is one aspect, and what I said is that, if that aspect becomes the game's world design future, I will likely not participate in further such content.

You have to learn to differentiate, like I do.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[Sobx.1758]

43 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

No sense of humor? I was merely taunting.

"...(not even taking that literally, you just don't like the direction of the theme/style -ok, w/e,  to each their own)"

Convenient quote cutting job, meanwhile I was merely explaining what I was about to comment on, while making sure it's clear I'm not taking that literally 😄 

Quote

I bought it. Past tense. That was before I knew it would have that design factor.

Ok. EoD trailer kind of "warned" you here though:

https://youtu.be/KiNpIbd5jeE?t=35

And to be clear, I'm not even talking about "your children would be trapped in the past" voiceover, just about visuals. More at 1:37.

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And yes, I am going to play it, since I have paid for it. It can still be an okay expansion, perhaps even good story-wise. I loved the Arborstone preview.

What I am complaining about is one aspect, and what I said is that, if that aspect becomes the game's world design future, I will likely not participate in further such content.

You have to learn to differentiate, like I do.

I mean, it's already the game's future, that content along with its especs won't suddenly go anywhere, but ok, thanks for the explanation 😉  

Edited December 19, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Freya.9075]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Did you even care to read the post I linked?

Do that so we can stop running in circles.

I did read it. It doesn’t change what I said. And I still didn’t see anything wrong with the way the game is going. You don’t have to like it but the game is a fantasy game. It goes the direction anet wants it.
 

As I said before, if you don’t like it maybe it’s time to move on. There is no need to run in circles since all of this is just opinions. Your opinion is not more valuable then the ones liking the game for what it is and where it’s going. It goes both ways and in the end it’s upto anet what they do with the game. 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

You can always get a refund, if you find it that distasteful.  Having 'already bought it' is no excuse. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, Kossage.9072 said:

Snip

To keep this from spiraling into an ever increasing quote wall.

I don't think adopting a EQ style design system would world for Anet, or GW2. Anet set a certain bar of expectations, not just with the original release of GW2, but the subsequent LW seasons and expansions. We've already seen the, IMO rather silly, backlash over EoD supposedly not having the same game changing feature like HoT had with gliders, or PoF had with mounts. Imagine them trying to release an expansion with even less maps, less features, less big set piece moments. GW2's playerbase, and even just the overall MMO playerbase, has certain expectations when it comes to spending money on something like an Xpack, and what you suggest just isn't it. Again, EQ can get away with it because its age gives it a certain expectation. That sort of design doesn't transfer to newer games with different expectations.

I would also disagree with most of your comments about things like Joko, or Kralk, or the White Mantel Civil War, getting a whole season.

• By the time LWS4 begins we have already run train across Joko's northern territories, killing numerous high ranking officials, laying waste to some major forts, and even helped the Sunspears get a new base for their order. With the events in Istan causing a massive uprising against Joko there, and our subsequent trips to the Sandswept Isles, and Kourna, and similar events there, even if Joko had survived the assault on Gandara the only place he could have gone to is Jahai, but even then he would have been surrounded on all sides by an Elona in open revolt against him. And any attack on Jahai would just be what we did at Gandara, but a 2nd time for the same reason. You would have to stretch it pretty hard to make Joko a realistic threat for another 3-4 episodes.
• The same is true of Kralk. By the time PoF was over we had pretty much done all the lore bits related to Kralk. Glint, Vlast, the Dragonsblood Spear, etc. Had we not broken the Spear in PoF we could have just taken it, and stabbed him, and ended it right there. This is why most of the 2nd half of LWS4 wasn't about Kralk, it was about Aurene, and her issues. Kralk's story was largely done before LWS4 even started. It wouldn't make sense for him to get a whole season because there really wouldn't be much to do/learn, since we already did it/learned it back in PoF or earlier.
• The White Mantle was a largely inept group that had spent the last 200+ years to try to take Kryta, and failed. They weren't some massive army on the scale of the Krytan army, they were a comparatively small rebel group who only got as far as they did because they got hyped up on bloodstone dust. Even if they were a larger force, by the time we get to that point the five major races had already entered into a larger alliance, and would have helped Kryta out in defeating the Mantle . The Mantle would have never lasted very long, regardless of size, because they are so dwarfed by the opposing forces.

This leads into a bigger problem, not just in GW2, but in fandoms in general, where people latch onto certain aspects of a fictional universe, and then build ever increasingly larger, and more grandiose, ideas of how that thing should turn out, even if that thing was never portrayed as being anything near that level. This inevitably leads to self created disappointment when the writers, who are going by how they actually set it up, and not these over expectations, write it in a much more mundane way.

I think this ties a lot into what you say about the Icebrood Saga. The Icebrood Saga trailer was metaphorical, not literal. We never saw the Charr homelands on fire, we never saw Kodan being pushed out to sea on Icebergs, etc. It was a non literal tease of some larger plot points in the IBS, not a 1:1 depiction.  The "norn naval combat" could very easily just have been a reference to Drizzlewood, home to a former Norn settlement that got wiped out by Bangar's armies where there is now a larger war taking place, and some sunken subs in the water. Likewise, we don't see the EoTN in the IBS trailer, we see Rytlock, Jhavi, and Braham standing in front of a generic norn building in some mountains, which could be some settlement near Anvil Rock in GW2's time. The larger data-mined EoTN map is there because we can see otuside the EoTN if we are on a mount, so they need a map out there. The ice lake was a feature in GW1, and can be seen outside the EOTN in GW2 if you stand on the Asura portal and look out.

As for Asgeir, and the Spirit stuff, that was already covered in the first half of IBS. We got to go to the place where Asgeir fought Frostfang and Jormag, and we found his journal detailing the trust of that event, and the Norn's exodus south. We can also use the Raven Lens to see a vision of his haling away Jormag's tooth. The Spirits played a large role in Bjora and Drizzlewood. Raven in chapter 1, Wolf in chapter 2, Ox, Eagle, and Wolverine, in chapters 2 and 4. The whole main focus of Chapter 2 was the Spirits guiding Braham to become what he needed to in order to defeat Jormag, with chapter ending with Braham using the power of the spirits, and a Jotun magic infused weapon, to kill a major champion of Jormag as Asgeir did. Which pretty much brings a close to the whole Asgeir/Braham symbolism plotline. The only thing left for Braham to do was realize he needed to become Primordus' champion, which we saw happen in Champions with his development of the Destroyer sense, him getting Owl's wisdom, and then him getting the protection fo the Spirits when he went into the volcano. I really don't think there was much more for the spirits left to do in IBS before Champions began, and doubt there was some massive Spirit plotline cut from Champions that would have been in the original 4 episodes.

And IBS was planned to essentially be a 12 part story. Bound by Blood, Bjora 1/2, Steel and Fire, Drizzlewood 1/2, Centaur 1/2, Braham VoP, Anvil Rock 1/2. That makes 11 different narrative parts.

I also don't think most of the things you think are loose plotlines are.

• The Charr Civil War is over and done. Bangar is dead, Smodur is dead, the remaining Imperators all kind of agree the whole Khan-Ur thing is dumb, and leads to more problems then it solves, and don't seem interested in it. The Flame Legion has been brought back into the fold, and the United Legions have begun talks with the Olmakhan, essentially reuniting the Charr species.
• The Far Shiverpeaks stuff is also pretty much done. We went back to the old Norn lands, visited many of their GW1 settlements, saw where Asgier fought Frostfang and Jormag, found the secrets behind that encounter, killed the Fraenir, the highest ranking Svanir. We helped Jahvi kill Drakkar, and earn some measure of revenge for what it did to her family. We discovered what happened to the lost Spirits of the Wild, Braham completed his big Asgir parallel, and completed the Norn's prophecy of killing Jormag. We already see in Dragon Bash that its so over the Norn are sending people up north to begin resettlement efforts its THAT over.
• There isn't a power vacuum in the Spirits of the Wild. They don't fight each other for top pick or anything. That's never been how they operate.
• The Separatists aren't resurging, and even if they were the events of the Ebonhawke DRM pretty much killed any standing they had left since the Charr, and a Charr impterator, came into the city, and fought alongside its citizens to save them from the Destroyers. Which itself is just building on a years long storyline of human-charr peace.
• We did the depths stuff back in HoT and LWS3. We went underground(in Tangled Depths), found a lost Asuran city(Rata Novus), learned about what happened to the Asura who stayed underground to keep fighting Primordus while the rest of their kind went to the surface(the Rata Novans), we found technology/research/magic they developed to fight Primordus(Dragon Lab at Rata Novus), used it to find a weakness in Primordus(Taimi's research into the dragons in LWS3), used that to kill Primordus(first with Taimi's machine, then in IBS), and stopped the Inquest from stealing these ancient secrets(Inquest presence/events at Rata Arcanum in Draconis Mons)
• Same thing with the Dwarves. By the time Champions begun we had explored all the old Dwarven lands, interacted with the last two known living Dwarves, found the legacy of the Dwarves(Dragonsblood weapon forge), and used it to kill Kralkatorrik. We found out what happened to the Stone Summit, and killed the last of their number. We got to explore several ancient Dwarven ruins filled with monsters(including Destroyers). We were able to find pieces of, and recreate, a limited set of ancient Dwarven weapons, and a limited dwarven armor set. The Dragonsblood weapon collection had us recreate the deeds, and learn the stories of, the ancient dwarven heroes. We had huge interactions with the Dredge, the successors to the Dwarves' empire, helped them begin their revolution against their oppressive government, and eventually made peace with some of them, who lent us their technology and manpower against the Elder Dragons.

Before Champions begun pretty much all of these stories/areas had been wrapped up in a nice little bow, which is why they played little part in Champions, and likely would have played little part in the original 4 chapters of IBS they had planned for after Jormag Rising.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Ashantara.8731]

9 hours ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

You can always get a refund, if you find it that distasteful.  Having 'already bought it' is no excuse. 

I haven't played for all these years only to quit the game right before its story arc of nine and a half years comes to an end. That would be extremely stupid, don't you think?

It would be like never finishing the final season of Game of Thrones just because it sucked, or never watching the Star Wars finale because of the majorly disappointing and incredibly cheesy prequels and the simply abysmal writing of the sequels. You have to know how it ends, regardless.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

For some, I suppose. 🤷‍♂️

For myself, if I don't like something, I don't engage.  But, you do you. 

[Sobx.1758]

5 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I haven't played for all these years only to quit the game right before its story arc of nine and a half years comes to an end. That would be extremely stupid, don't you think?

It would be like never finishing the final season of Game of Thrones just because it sucked, or never watching the Star Wars finale because of the majorly disappointing and incredibly cheesy prequels and the simply abysmal writing of the sequels. You have to know how it ends, regardless.

But... but you said "you are going to play it, since you have paid for it [before knowing it will be cyberpunkish]"? So I guess in the end it's not enough for you to not buy the next expansions, because you can still like the gameplay/story provided. At this point, why even say that when at the same time you show it's not true? 😉 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Zekent.3652]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:40 AM, Thon.3780 said:

Imo

it is quite challenge for ANET coz all dragon already use up.

if we reviewed gw1.  The remaining possible 

1. resurrection of abaddon. ( maybe) underworld contest , realm of torment 

2. civil war

3. Replacement of new god instead of Balthazar.

4. New map and content?….. no idea coz backgrounds and world  refer to gw1  almost use up

 

 

Yeah, humans are not the only race of tyria, the others also needs some lore love lol.

[Gibson.4036]

Kinda funny to choose "I'm not dressed for cyberpunk" when almost the entire medium weight skin catalog has looked like it was inspired by the Matrix since launch. 😄

9 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

 

It would be like never finishing the final season of Game of Thrones just because it sucked,

Well, I've never watched Game of Thrones. I did read the Song of Ice and Fire books. Unfortunately, I've never read the last two because Martin apparently got too wealthy not finishing the series. 🙄

Pretty sure I'll never know how it turns out. 😞

 

[piitb.7635]

As per the title of the topic, I think there will be at least one more expansion.

 

There is still a lot of spots in the map to still be filled in.  Plus there is a continent to the west that has never been in game.

[AusarViled.7106]

My view on this is that no, we will get one more expansion after EOD, aka we will get living season 7. That will be the final expansion of GW2. Why do I think this?

 

1) MMOs usually have a life cycle of 12-15 years. If ArenaNet make an expansion every 3-4 years, next expansion will be in Q4 2025 to Q1 of 2026. That would make the game 12 years? That leaves them exactly 2-3 years to finish up the final living season and go out with an extinction level mega event like FF14 did. 

2) It takes around 8 years to develop a mmo and not have it end like AGS New World. If they begin to develop it after EOD launches, GW3 would launch 2-3 years after final living season launched. This is effective usage of resources and money. Since expansion bank rolls the third game.

 

3) marketing had been vary bad for GW2. I played game on launch, and left but completely forgot about the game until 2021. I suspect ArenaNet want to cut their losses and attempt again. 
 

These would be my reasons, I would continue this idea in a later post this week, what I would want GW3 to look like. Once it’s done I will post it. 

 

[Gibson.4036]

FFXIV was nuked because it failed and they had to completely retool it and rerelease.

You wouldn’t do that to a game that was successful for a twelve year run. You’d leave the lights on even after you made the decision to stop developing as long as players continued to buy enough cash shop items to keep an income coming in.

[Ashantara.8731]

On 12/30/2021 at 5:18 AM, AusarViled.7106 said:

1) MMOs usually have a life cycle of 12-15 years. If ArenaNet make an expansion every 3-4 years, next expansion will be in Q4 2025 to Q1 of 2026. That would make the game 12 years? That leaves them exactly 2-3 years to finish up the final living season and go out with an extinction level mega event like FF14 did.

Errr... Your logic is flawed.

First off, there are MMOs that have lasted longer (see WoW). Second, there is no magic formula that automatically applies to each MMO.

On 12/30/2021 at 5:18 AM, AusarViled.7106 said:

2) It takes around 8 years to develop a mmo and not have it end like AGS New World. If they begin to develop it after EOD launches, GW3 would launch 2-3 years after final living season launched. This is effective usage of resources and money. Since expansion bank rolls the third game.

They have no resources for another game. Everyone was pulled from all other projects two years ago, it was a big mayhem (apparently, you missed that?). People were fired (or "encouraged" to quit), and the devs that remained were to focus only on GW2.

Furthermore, we were told repeatedly in the last couple of live streams that there are "great things" in the making after EoD and that the devs looked forward to at least another nine years of GW2.

And last, but not least: the reason the game gets ported to DX11 is for making future content even better. If they had planned only another Living World season after EoD, this would be a totally stupid move as it is a lot of work to rewrite the engine in parts (the final release of the DX11 version won't release anytime soon, that's for sure).

Sorry to say this, but all your arguments make no sense whatsoever.

P.S.

On 12/30/2021 at 5:18 AM, AusarViled.7106 said:

3) marketing had been vary bad for GW2. I played game on launch, and left but completely forgot about the game until 2021. I suspect ArenaNet want to cut their losses and attempt again. 

Marketing for GW1 was just as meager. It's how ArenaNet wants it to be, obviously, so that's no valid proof for anything, either.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[AusarViled.7106]

10 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Errr... Your logic is flawed.

First off, there are MMOs that have lasted longer (see WoW). Second, there is no magic formula that automatically applies to each MMO.

They have no resources for another game. Everyone was pulled from all other projects two years ago, it was a big mayhem (apparently, you missed that?). People were fired (or "encouraged" to quit), and the devs that remained were to focus only on GW2.

Furthermore, we were told repeatedly in the last couple of live streams that there are "great things" in the making after EoD and that the devs looked forward to at least another nine years of GW2.

And last, but not least: the reason the game gets ported to DX11 is for making future content even better. If they had planned only another Living World season after EoD, this would be a totally stupid move as it is a lot of work to rewrite the engine in parts (the final release of the DX11 version won't release anytime soon, that's for sure).

Sorry to say this, but all your arguments make no sense whatsoever.

P.S.

Marketing for GW1 was just as meager. It's how ArenaNet wants it to be, obviously, so that's no valid proof for anything, either.

I think you miss read my post. I clearly specified that one expansion after end of dragons, not that end of dragons is the last expansion.  Read the time line I propose, if we get 1 expansion every 4-5 years, we get exactly one more expansion after EOD, and one full season of living story. That’s usually takes around 2 years to produce. That is your 8 years of time you mentioned.

 

Regarding the internals of GW2, I did not know about that, your argument is fair.  I play almost 7 mmos at same time so do not know the specifics of what is going with any team.

1) swtor 

2) GW2

3) ESO

4) FF14

5) BnS

6-8) what ever new mmos release, or I feel returning to 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by AusarViled.7106

[Ashantara.8731]

3 hours ago, AusarViled.7106 said:

I think you miss read my post. I clearly specified that one expansion after end of dragons, not that end of dragons is the last expansion.  Read the time line I propose, if we get 1 expansion every 4-5 years, we get exactly one more expansion after EOD, and one full season of living story. That’s usually takes around 2 years to produce. That is your 8 years of time you mentioned.

It doesn't matter, it still makes no sense in the light of things (DX11 upgrade, etc). The only reason they will cancel further content after your estimated time would be for the game to no longer perform successfully enough (i.e., no longer earn them enough money), not because "It is time to put it to rest and start working on the next Guild Wars game." (They would have to do this parallely, and they just don't have the workpower to do so.)

A steep decline in earnings is possible (because games like Ashes of Creation will certainly blow people away and a lot might migrate to it from other MMORPGs). However, I assume there will still be enough people left who will stay in GW2, either for sentimental reasons, for having invested a lot into the game for a decade, or for not wanting to switch to a game with a monthly subscription fee (all fair reasons).

Therefore, I do not believe that GW2 will be put to rest in the near future (nor after the next expansion), and certainly not in order to produce GW3 - if anything, my assumption is that the end of GW2 will mean the end of the GW franchise as a whole, because they will never be able to compete with the likes of AoC, unless NCsoft goes, "Hey, guys, listen: we are going to provide you with the money to hire 200 to 300 additional employees so you can start working on a new Guild Wars game that'll redefine the MMORPG genre!" - Just not going to happen, IMO.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Ashantara.8731

[AusarViled.7106]

9 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

It doesn't matter, it still makes no sense in the light of things (DX11 upgrade, etc). The only reason they will cancel further content after your estimated time would be for the game to no longer perform successfully enough (i.e., no longer earn them enough money), not because "It is time to put it to rest and start working on the next Guild Wars game." (They would have to do this parallely, and they just don't have the workpower to do so.)

A steep decline in earnings is possible (because games like Ashes of Creation will certainly blow people away and a lot might migrate to it from other MMORPGs). However, I assume there will still be enough people left who will stay in GW2, either for sentimental reasons, for having invested a lot into the game for a decade, or for not wanting to switch to a game with a monthly subscription fee (all fair reasons).

Therefore, I do not believe that GW2 will be put to rest in the near future (nor after the next expansion), and certainly not in order to produce GW3 - if anything, my assumption is that the end of GW2 will mean the end of the GW franchise as a whole, because they will never be able to compete with the likes of AoC, unless NCsoft goes, "Hey, guys, listen: we are going to provide you with the money to hire 200 to 300 additional employees so you can start working on a new Guild Wars game that'll redefine the MMORPG genre!" - Just not going to happen, IMO.

I do not want to rain on your parade with ashes or creation, but as a MMO player I do not understand the hype of ashes at all, the game is a abysmal failure in my eyes.

 

1) a small A company can not create something that a studio of 200+ people with many many attempts failed to create.  Ashes is an example of FOMO at its maximum. The game is at best an old school mmo, look at Josh Strife Hayes video. He explains consumers no longer want old school mmos.

 

2) The game objectively looks like a play station 2 game. It looks like it was just bought with unity assets and stringed together. With no graphical pipeline in game, and no cohesion in art style, the game will be a shambled mess

 

3) it’s a subscription based mmo, those do not do well anymore. Ashes will likely go f2p 3 months after its launch, and be dead in 6 months after that.

 

enjoy it if you want, but do not follow the hype. Trust me, as I played mmos for 15+ years can tell you. These MMOs ALWAYS FAIL, the hype is NEVER paid of. 

[Sobx.1758]

We didn't even play the nearest expansion yet, it's almost certain there will be another LW season after that. There will be something new to do in the game for some time, whether it will be last expansion or not is almost impossible to tell right now, so why even attempt to make these completely blind guesses 🤷‍♂️ 

[Gibson.4036]

I don’t understand how anyone can declare an MMO still in production to be the next big MMO. Not if you have any experience with them. The last decade and a half, at least, is littered with amazing new MMOs that crashed and burned. Not a few didn’t even make it to launch in spite of all their promise and hype.