What are you supposed to do when a Theif/Deadeye is skirmishing next to a Castle ?

[Dawanarth.4601]

Yesterday a Deadeye was playing with our nerves and just attacking and rapidly retreating into stealth/further away, as we didn't want to get picked off we remained near the gate but it was still quite annoying till the Deadeye slipped up and got hit by some stun and got quickly downed

[Dawdler.8521]

Uh... ignore him and go out another side?

[Bingus.4236]

Call it out on team chat and gank them with 10+ players. Jump up and down on their stupid dead corpse.

[GoldenPants.1870]

Use a reveal trap/trick and have high enough mobility to lock the thief down.

[Boh.4568]

Since the thief gameplay relies on being annoying and picking players away from the pack, you are perfectly entitled to counterplay and gank the thief with your group. Basically what Bingus said.

You will rely on a lucky stun in the same way the thief relies on a lucky backstab.

[Skynet.7201]

Welcome to WvW! Are you talking about Middle Fort (SMC) or other structures? Just asking, because you said "a" castle in the thread title. Either way, you have several choices.

-WP and go do something else (most obvious)
-Stare at them (a great counter annoyance, if you have the time)
-Engage, and learn from the losses (footage helps)
-Build 5,928 ACs and fire them off (I'm not a fan, but hey, it's an option)
-Call in the cavalry (yawn)

The majority of thiefs aren't as good as they'd like to think they are (though there are maybe 20-30% that are really and truly good). It just happens to be a class that's ridiculously easy to accommodate those that prefer a gank playstyle. The problem is that most players don't know much about the class or how to play it, and therefore don't know how to time their own interrupts or counters against them. Once you figure that out, you'll live to fight another 1v1, and your win ratio will improve significantly.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Skynet.7201

[Xenesis.6389]

We had a deadeye all up in our earth keep last night for like 3 hours. People would report him but couldn't catch him I guess. I saw him once under the north platforms to port in, fired some eng mortar at their spot and they were gone, completely from sight and scan, but then they showed up again somewhere else as scout reports kept coming in and the zergs on the map ignored it.

Giving them dodge stealth and portal was such a mistake, but hey it's anet.

[kash.9213]

Post it in chat so everyone gets the heads up, pinging hot spots and sketchy stuff on map for people is always helpful. It sounds like Control skills got him so you already have a good answer. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

7 hours ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

Yesterday a Deadeye was playing with our nerves and just attacking and rapidly retreating into stealth/further away, as we didn't want to get picked off we remained near the gate but it was still quite annoying till the Deadeye slipped up and got hit by some stun and got quickly downed

Gank it. Don't waste your time to chase that broken mechanic alone, write on map chat that stealth bag is at xyz position and wait for help or just go in different direction.
Don't play on their rules, play on your own.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

6 hours ago, Boh.4568 said:

Since the thief gameplay relies on being annoying and picking players away from the pack, you are perfectly entitled to counterplay and gank the thief with your group. Basically what Bingus said.

You will rely on a lucky stun in the same way the thief relies on a lucky backstab.

Pretty much this. I'd either get chased off by a group, or I'd carry on picking you off as and when you give me opportunity. 

2 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Giving them dodge stealth and portal was such a mistake, but hey it's anet.

Yup lol. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

7 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

We had a deadeye all up in our earth keep last night for like 3 hours. People would report him but couldn't catch him I guess. I saw him once under the north platforms to port in, fired some eng mortar at their spot and they were gone, completely from sight and scan, but then they showed up again somewhere else as scout reports kept coming in and the zergs on the map ignored it.

Giving them dodge stealth and portal was such a mistake, but hey it's anet.

Portal really isn't bad, but dodge stealth is bad because it allows long-term stealth without dropping down visible smoke fields. I've actually managed permastealth on DE without a single smoke field/finisher, which is problematic because there's no way to ever know where that Thief  is. unless they get tired of pressing buttons.

 

Core Thief and Daredevil are relatively balanced. Nearly every time you get this problem its a Deadeye. (The Elite skill contributes too, but I won't go into that here.)

Edited November 25, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[kash.9213]

33 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Portal really isn't bad, but dodge stealth is bad because it allows long-term stealth without dropping down visible smoke fields. I've actually managed permastealth on DE without a single smoke field/finisher, which is problematic because there's no way to ever know where that Thief  is. unless they get tired of pressing buttons.

 

Core Thief and Daredevil are relatively balanced. Nearly every time you get this problem its a Deadeye. (The Elite skill contributes too, but I won't go into that here.)

The Dodge Stealth is weird because it's not even using up Initiative or a Utility cooldown. It's perfect for anyone using those problematic builds but then I think it's annoying otherwise in the same way the Stealth on Heal can Stealth you at a bad time or bust up fluidity, but that Precision trait is hard to pass up for how dated or redundant the other two are. I like Kneel and use it fine but a lot of people have trouble with it and it's not at all fluid for most and Stealthing off of Snipers Cover a lot isn't realistic. 

I'm still in favor of Silent Scope and Shadow Meld being re-worked into something that aids you while in Kneel stance so we don't have to scramble into stealth every time going into Kneel or setting up Snipers Cover paints a big kitten target on our heads. 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by kash.9213

[HazyDaisy.4107]

Kill them with a cannon of course.  It's called actively participating!

[ASP.8093]

17 hours ago, Dawanarth.4601 said:

got hit by some stun and got quickly downed

I feel like you have already solved your own problem.

Edited November 25, 2021 by ASP.8093

[SweetPotato.7456]

23 hours ago, Bingus.4236 said:

Call it out on team chat and gank them with 10+ players. Jump up and down on their stupid dead corpse.

You will died and leaves a dumb corpse lol

[Skynet.7201]

On 11/24/2021 at 6:58 AM, Bingus.4236 said:

Call it out on team chat and gank them with 10+ players. Jump up and down on their stupid dead corpse.

I'm boujie and throw guild siege on them, to let them know how special they are. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

12 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

The Dodge Stealth is weird because it's not even using up Initiative or a Utility cooldown. It's perfect for anyone using those problematic builds but then I think it's annoying otherwise in the same way the Stealth on Heal can Stealth you at a bad time or bust up fluidity, but that Precision trait is hard to pass up for how dated or redundant the other two are. I like Kneel and use it fine but a lot of people have trouble with it and it's not at all fluid for most and Stealthing off of Snipers Cover a lot isn't realistic. 

I'm still in favor of Silent Scope and Shadow Meld being re-worked into something that aids you while in Kneel stance so we don't have to scramble into stealth every time going into Kneel or setting up Snipers Cover paints a big kitten target on our heads. 

 

Tbh I'm half expecting the stealth on dodge to get reworked after End of Dragons arrives, it seems to be the pattern that the previous spec gets brought in line and this is the main trait that causes a lot of annoyance for anyone fighting a deadeye. That said I have no idea what they should rework it into, rifle needs some sort of stealth access outside of stolen skills and it needs to have counterplay so a smart opponent can counter it. 

 

If it was me I'd probably redesign rifle again since most thieves avoid using rifle 3 in any capacity, it can only be an improvement imo. I'd do something like make standing rifle 3 a single shot that works like ranger longbow 3 so you have to hit something to get the stealth, keep it at 5-6 ini as well if you like to prevent spamming. I'd put death's judgement back on kneeling rifle 3 so you can cast it without stealth but it keeps the self reveal and it still consumes malice for the damage scaling, I'd replace the sneak attack with cursed bullet, give the skill a reveal when used and have it consume malice for boonrip, and return to kneeling for stealth with an ammo count. That way you get more and better utility, you clean up the skills that nobody uses and you give 3 ways of getting stealth (standing rifle 3, kneel and stolen items) that all have counterplay. That's my two cents anyways. 

[Simonoly.4352]

Just get a Sic'em Soulbeast to machine gun it down 

[kash.9213]

2 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Tbh I'm half expecting the stealth on dodge to get reworked after End of Dragons arrives, it seems to be the pattern that the previous spec gets brought in line and this is the main trait that causes a lot of annoyance for anyone fighting a deadeye. That said I have no idea what they should rework it into, rifle needs some sort of stealth access outside of stolen skills and it needs to have counterplay so a smart opponent can counter it. 

 

If it was me I'd probably redesign rifle again since most thieves avoid using rifle 3 in any capacity, it can only be an improvement imo. I'd do something like make standing rifle 3 a single shot that works like ranger longbow 3 so you have to hit something to get the stealth, keep it at 5-6 ini as well if you like to prevent spamming. I'd put death's judgement back on kneeling rifle 3 so you can cast it without stealth but it keeps the self reveal and it still consumes malice for the damage scaling, I'd replace the sneak attack with cursed bullet, give the skill a reveal when used and have it consume malice for boonrip, and return to kneeling for stealth with an ammo count. That way you get more and better utility, you clean up the skills that nobody uses and you give 3 ways of getting stealth (standing rifle 3, kneel and stolen items) that all have counterplay. That's my two cents anyways. 

That's a nice roll out and Cursed Bullet would be great to time combo with stuff again. If it had some mitigation or trickery to cover you a bit while in Kneel then we could post up and prep some interesting plays with the way Death's Judgment would work. Or if not a little mitigation then allow you to slowly crouch walk to adjust your position or edge out of circles. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

19 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

That's a nice roll out and Cursed Bullet would be great to time combo with stuff again. If it had some mitigation or trickery to cover you a bit while in Kneel then we could post up and prep some interesting plays with the way Death's Judgment would work. Or if not a little mitigation then allow you to slowly crouch walk to adjust your position or edge out of circles. 

Well, you'd still have sniper's cover which is pretty immense as well. But yeah, I'm thinking mobility and utility while standing, damage and bunker-ness when knelt, and cursed bullet to set up spikes. I don't have a problem with moving slowly while knelt, but I usually run withdraw, roll for ini and shadowstep,. so I don't have that much problem kiting either. 

[nativity.3057]

23 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Giving them dodge stealth and portal was such a mistake, but hey it's anet.

 

Wasn't Deadeye a community brainstormed specialization that Anet brought to life? 

I remember everyone going "Ghillie sniper would be so cool!" before PoF. 

[Xenesis.6389]

2 minutes ago, nativity.3057 said:

 

Wasn't Deadeye a community brainstormed specialization that Anet brought to life? 

I remember everyone going "Ghillie sniper would be so cool!" before PoF. 

 They should have gave them stealth in bushes and trees not on dodge then lmao.

 

Mirage isn't even allowed two dodges on their spec, yet deadeye keeps two and daredevil gets three, biased much anerf... 🙄

[kash.9213]

12 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Well, you'd still have sniper's cover which is pretty immense as well. But yeah, I'm thinking mobility and utility while standing, damage and bunker-ness when knelt, and cursed bullet to set up spikes. I don't have a problem with moving slowly while knelt, but I usually run withdraw, roll for ini and shadowstep,. so I don't have that much problem kiting either. 

It should still be a slow crouched walk but basically still bunker mode. I'm just thinking about how a group or squad pivots and nudges a lot, especially in the OPs setting. I wouldn't mind keeping that as it is though if crossing Snipers Cover while in Kneel refilled my Endurance some. I kite in place sometimes rolling over and shooting through Snipers Cover but that gases out pretty fast. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by kash.9213

[ArchonWing.9480]

Well, if they don't want to fight, then don't fight them. Instead grab the pesticide. I just build a ballista on the wall  usually and then build 2nd ballista that is covered by the first.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[GoldenPants.1870]

22 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

. I'd put death's judgement back on kneeling rifle 3 so you can cast it without stealth but it keeps the self reveal and it still consumes malice for the damage scaling, I'd replace the sneak attack with cursed bullet, give the skill a reveal when used and have it consume malice for boonrip, and return to kneeling for stealth with an ammo count.

This sounds like an absolute fustercluck in PvE, infact it’d probably remove Deadeye viability at all from it. So this really doesn’t seem like a plausible change.

Edited November 26, 2021 by GoldenPants.1870