Condi necro needs a nerf. Or condi needs to be looked at in PvP.

[Varnix.5204]

Ok enough is enough, Condi Necro is beyond a joke. You've literally got this class carrying the whole of PvP on its back. It needs a nerf. The rework to resistance has  rendered any point pumping it out useless. Resolution does not do nearly enough to negate the amount of damage the class puts out either. I'm sure a lot of people can agree with this also. In 3's right now, any down you try to grind out with a condi necro on the enemy team, will easily just tear you apart. There's not enough condi cleanses in the world for PvP. 

[ovenglove.9528]

There is too much cleanse in pvp. Power is really dominant at the moment, and if cleasne was nerfed it would allow condi builds to be more viable.

Damage wise I don't think condi necro is a problem, I think the problem is more with how tanky it is. Core necro is another spec with too much cleanse. Normally there is at least is condi transfer on staff, dagger offhand, curses trait, and cleanses on consume conditions, blood magic grandmaster. If you are condi and fighting a core necro they can stay alive way too long with how many cleanses they have. Players should die to condi in a reasonable time frame.

Edited December 8, 2021 by ovenglove.9528

[Zekent.3652]

People spam condi builds for a simple reason, they're easier than power builds, even if power builds are meta, a condi player is just more dominant and annoying on soloQ, but hard countered by a support.

[Vancho.8750]

7 minutes ago, ovenglove.9528 said:

There is too much cleanse in pvp. Power is really dominant at the moment, and if cleasne was nerfed it would allow condi builds to be more viable.

Damage wise I don't think condi necro is a problem, I think the problem is more with how tanky it is. Core necro is another spec with too much cleanse. Normally there is at least is condi transfer on staff, dagger offhand, curses trait, and cleanses on consume conditions, blood magic grandmaster. If you are condi and fighting a core necro they can stay alive way too long with how many cleanses they have. Players should die to condi in a reasonable time frame.

 

 

It is not even that tanky, it is just everyone is playing something tanky, and core necro is a THE profession of attrition (best condition management in the game receiving or applying) so it wins out the battles with other attrition builds. The spike damage builds win over necro since it has no good cc management, no blocks no extra dodges,  but are countered by the rest of the meta builds that have those. Playing high output builds is risky these days, cause people at least in ranked do not help each other.

Personally I think the worm port should be 60 second cd so it matches the rest disengage skills, so necro has to spend more time in fights, this will curb the tankines feel cause necro wouldn't be able to escape every kitten up.  

[Downstate.4697]

I think its more of an issue with their life force generation than their condis. Anet provided too from traits.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Vancho.8750 said:

It is not even that tanky, it is just everyone is playing something tanky, and core necro is a THE profession of attrition (best condition management in the game receiving or applying) so it wins out the battles with other attrition builds. The spike damage builds win over necro since it has no good cc management, no blocks no extra dodges,  but are countered by the rest of the meta builds that have those. Playing high output builds is risky these days, cause people at least in ranked do not help each other.

Personally I think the worm port should be 60 second cd so it matches the rest disengage skills, so necro has to spend more time in fights, this will curb the tankines feel cause necro wouldn't be able to escape every kitten up.  

dude, wurm doesnt need 60s cd, its fine as is.
If any skill deserves a nerf its spectral walk, as this skill alone charges 40% of their life force, while being more or less 10s of invulnerability against conditions.

[Vancho.8750]

Just now, Leonidrex.5649 said:

dude, wurm doesnt need 60s cd, its fine as is.
If any skill deserves a nerf its spectral walk, as this skill alone charges 40% of their life force, while being more or less 10s of invulnerability against conditions.

And you are the guy complaining that people are talking out of their kitten about mesmer and power block.
It removes a condition every 2 seconds meaning it removes 5 conditions in a span of 10. Also its max 20% life force if it removes 5 conditions.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spectral_Walk

Worm is meant to be an escape tool, but the short cd makes it clunky vertical shadowstep or blink which makes Necro really mobile, this is the main reason Necro feels tankier than it is, cause it skips its vulnerability phase by porting out. 

[RedAvenged.5217]

Ok so I play decent condi builds all the time- condi daredevil, trap ranger, burn guard etc.

they are good especially against a lot of our hard carry builds- like engi rev and dh all power, it’s good enough to where I can get kills on high rated players like naru or whomever but I have to put in a lot of effort.

 

however it barely scratches the surface of tanks like support guard and necro. Necro just has so much hp sustain, condi cleanse and even cc and damage.

 

my point is basically condi is far from bad, it’s just necro that is crazy over tuned. If I play any other condition build I have to put in a lot of effort for ok results, meanwhile necro never put in effort and is leagues above the rest.

[Morwath.9817]

2 hours ago, Varnix.5204 said:

Ok enough is enough, Condi Necro is beyond a joke. You've literally got this class carrying the whole of PvP on its back. It needs a nerf. The rework to resistance has  rendered any point pumping it out useless. Resolution does not do nearly enough to negate the amount of damage the class puts out either. I'm sure a lot of people can agree with this also. In 3's right now, any down you try to grind out with a condi necro on the enemy team, will easily just tear you apart. There's not enough condi cleanses in the world for PvP. 

I don't agree. It's not Necro who needs nerf, but rather outdated trait lines for other classes needs buffs.

 

Like in Flashbang thread I've compared it to Blinding Ashes (blind on burn apply 8s ICD on GM trait is just garbage, while it was pretty decent with 4s ICD in pre-HoT). If we talk about Resistance rework, probably not many people remember that Diamond Skin used to give condition immunity above health treshold, but got overnerfed and for some reason Elementalist doesn't have access to Resistance in any shape and form as well... Now if you think about Resolution Elementalist has no access to it as well.

 

It applies to many classes and traitslines, and instead of asking Anet to nerf Necros, we should ask them instead to UPDATE other classes based on mechanics changes that happened over the years. Would help a lot more in long run...

Edited December 8, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

5 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Ok so I play decent condi builds all the time- condi daredevil, trap ranger, burn guard etc.

they are good especially against a lot of our hard carry builds- like engi rev and dh all power, it’s good enough to where I can get kills on high rated players like naru or whomever but I have to put in a lot of effort.

 

however it barely scratches the surface of tanks like support guard and necro. Necro just has so much hp sustain, condi cleanse and even cc and damage.

 

my point is basically condi is far from bad, it’s just necro that is crazy over tuned. If I play any other condition build I have to put in a lot of effort for ok results, meanwhile necro never put in effort and is leagues above the rest.

This.

Just today I was playing condi berserker and 1v1d a (hate to say it) very bad Necro. The dude didn't even dodge. But despite essentially AFKing during our fight, it still took forever to kill him as he takes almost no condi damage in shroud. He face tanked my entire Berserker rotation and still had shroud to spare. I'm thinking the whole time, "glad I'm not playing a good player right now, cause apparently I don't have enough DPS for this."

 

I'm all for Necro being a tanky profession, but there's a problem if a Berserker can free cast on it and it still doesn't break shroud.

[Arheundel.6451]

5 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

I don't agree. It's not Necro who needs nerf, but rather outdated trait lines for other classes needs buffs.

 

Like in Flashbang thread I've compared it to Blinding Ashes (blind on burn apply 8s ICD on GM trait is just garbage, while it was pretty decent with 4s ICD in pre-HoT). If we talk about Resistance rework, probably not many people remember that Diamond Skin used to give condition immunity above health treshold, but got overnerfed and for some reason Elementalist doesn't have access to Resistance in any shape and form as well... Now if you think about Resolution Elementalist has no access to it as well.

 

It applies to many classes and traitslines, and instead of asking Anet to nerf Necros, we should ask them instead to UPDATE other classes based on mechanics changes that happened over the years. Would help a lot more in long run...

Diamond skin and Stone Heart were given to ele to give it a fightning chance against necros and thieves respectively, at the time of those 2 traits being introduced thanks to @Jon Peters, the necro and thief had been recently uber buffed with dhuumfire and s/d boon rip/perma dodge, the game at that point was truly kitten with 2-3 necros/thieves per match.

 

Before diamond skin, eles were getting hardcountered too much by necros due to chill spam and thieves with their 1200 teleport burst had too much free reign over other professions at the time.

 

The necro population was being kept in check somehow for the enjoyment of the whole game but sadly...as you'd expect after countless nerf threads by necros, literally crying blood, Diamond skin got nerfed down to the useless state it is now. There was warrior somehow being some sort of softcounter with Berseker's stance and .....after Jon Peters and Jon Sharp left for Amazon...the necro lovers devs got free reign .....they nerfed/removed all hard counters to necro...and that bring us to today.

 

Literally I started playing ranger due to necros ( only some time ago they introduced the cleansing sigil in wvw at least, so in wvw necro is still manageable on ele) and with post launch Druid I had the best time hunting down all those FOTM necros everywhere they'd show up, luckily they didn't (they couldn't ?!) nerf ranger to the ground like they did with ele, and that's the only reason why I am still playing this game since 2015.

 

These necro lovers at the helm...is what driving this game though the mud

[Myror.7521]

@ovenglove.9528 bruh you troll right? If something would need a nerf (outside of some Power creeped specs like herald/dh/soulbeast or just rangers/ hell even thiefs that playing on 2 defence lines and still dealing 4k+ damage while being not able to get killed) there are also some or better said most of the condition builds that could actually oneshot you (yes i mean oneshot and they sometimes would kill ya easily faster than any Power build if you wouldnt have some cleans left). The only reason why Power is meta is cause you cant cleans Power damage. You could aegis it ,blind it, dodge it, block it, or weakend it, BUT the now played Power classes are like Port in (stealthed or not) do your damage and run out  or other said you need to have a perfekt Reaktion time to not get instantly rekt. If thief and Revs wouldnt be there conditions would easy be meta by far.

[Spellhunter.9675]

11 hours ago, RedAvenged.5217 said:

Necro just has so much hp sustain

Necro has the lowest HP sustain of all meta classes in terms of HP per minute.

 

What actually should be done is shroud gen nerf for ~30%. So instead of 80% of shroud in 9 second it should be around 50%.
Also Eternal life trait is broken in it's design. It is unfun for both sides and impossible to balance. It should be reverted back to Foot in the Grave.

[Morwath.9817]

5 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Diamond skin and Stone Heart were given to ele to give it a fightning chance against necros and thieves respectively, at the time of those 2 traits being introduced thanks to @Jon Peters, the necro and thief had been recently uber buffed with dhuumfire and s/d boon rip/perma dodge, the game at that point was truly kitten with 2-3 necros/thieves per match.

 

Before diamond skin, eles were getting hardcountered too much by necros due to chill spam and thieves with their 1200 teleport burst had too much free reign over other professions at the time.

 

The necro population was being kept in check somehow for the enjoyment of the whole game but sadly...as you'd expect after countless nerf threads by necros, literally crying blood, Diamond skin got nerfed down to the useless state it is now. There was warrior somehow being some sort of softcounter with Berseker's stance and .....after Jon Peters and Jon Sharp left for Amazon...the necro lovers devs got free reign .....they nerfed/removed all hard counters to necro...and that bring us to today.

 

Literally I started playing ranger due to necros ( only some time ago they introduced the cleansing sigil in wvw at least, so in wvw necro is still manageable on ele) and with post launch Druid I had the best time hunting down all those FOTM necros everywhere they'd show up, luckily they didn't (they couldn't ?!) nerf ranger to the ground like they did with ele, and that's the only reason why I am still playing this game since 2015.

 

These necro lovers at the helm...is what driving this game though the mud

 

What you wrote is untrue, Diamond Skin was introduced in 2013 and Stone Heart in 2014. Necro was far from meta class until Reaper was introduced in HoT (2015), Thieves were never played in competitive more than one per team pre HoT, unlike Elementalists.

 

Anyway, the way Diamond Skin was nerfed into oblivion hasn't really fixed anything back then and only causes us balancing troubles today. Thats why im against nerfing Necro, as that won't "fix" Elementalist or other underplayed classes or specs anyhow. Today they were underpowered to Necro and rest of meta specs, and once you nerf Necro they still will be underpowered compared to other meta specs... 

 

What we actualy need is CMC to go past all underpowered stuff and buff it to top picks level, so we get actual choices while picking weapons, traits and skills.

[aelska.4609]

There is a huge difference between necros and condis themselves. Most of the condi builds actually require a buff, while condi necros definitely require some nerfs.

And weakness must disappear from the game.

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

What you wrote is untrue, Diamond Skin was introduced in 2013 and Stone Heart in 2014. Necro was far from meta class until Reaper was introduced in HoT (2015), Thieves were never played in competitive more than one per team pre HoT, unlike Elementalists.

 

Anyway, the way Diamond Skin was nerfed into oblivion hasn't really fixed anything back then and only causes us balancing troubles today. Thats why im against nerfing Necro, as that won't "fix" Elementalist or other underplayed classes or specs anyhow. Today they were underpowered to Necro and rest of meta specs, and once you nerf Necro they still will be underpowered compared to other meta specs... 

 

What we actualy need is CMC to go past all underpowered stuff and buff it to top picks level, so we get actual choices while picking weapons, traits and skills.

You could hope for a fair balance at this point if and only if they introduce a new set of devs to the game. Less biased, neutral and experienced individuals.....otherwise a single look and comparison between elementalist traitlines and those for professions like Necromancer and revenant and any sensible person would just drop the game for something else.

The bias against certain professions is unreal and unprofessional, they are the ones who made elementalist and yet....their balance is whacky, elementalist was supposed to be the boon centric class due to the lowest hp and armor and yet....everybody and his mom pumps 4xmore boons, have access to a wider range of boons and they cam easily be stacked for insane duration at the press of a single button....meanwhile on elementalist you need to execute some fancy combo to obtain even the most basic widespread boons and these combos mostly sit behind convoluted skills on medium/long CD.

If you want actual fair balance....then we need new less biased devs, otherwise for now...anything is wistful thinking 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Morwath.9817]

37 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

You could hope for a fair balance at this point if and only if they introduce a new set of devs to the game. Less biased, neutral and experienced individuals.....otherwise a single look and comparison between elementalist traitlines and those for professions like Necromancer and revenant and any sensible person would just drop the game for something else.

 

The bias against certain professions is unreal and unprofessional, they are the ones who made elementalist and yet....their balance is whacky, elementalist was supposed to be the boon centric class due to the lowest hp and armor and yet....everybody and his mom pumps 4xmore boons, have access to a wider range of boons and they cam easily be stacked for insane duration at the press of a single button....meanwhile on elementalist you to execute some fancy combo to obtain even the mosr widespread boons and these combos mostly sit behind convoluted skills on medium/long CD.

 

If you want actual fair balance....then we need new less biased devs, otherwise for now...anything is wistful thinking 

 

It's a reason I keep saying Necromancer is perfectly balanced class, as ALL trait lines have their uses, and rather than nerfing Necromancer they should focus on other classes until they reach same level of weapon, trait and utility viability as its in case of Necromancer. If we will go "nerf Necro" route we will just end up with more traits like Diamond Skin or Blinding Ashes, while Blinding Ashes and Diamond Skin still will be bad.

 

Edit: Ofc Lich Form has to go.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Axl.8924]

50 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

It's a reason I keep saying Necromancer is perfectly balanced class, as ALL trait lines have their uses, and rather than nerfing Necromancer they should focus on other classes until they reach same level of weapon, trait and utility viability as its in case of Necromancer. If we will go "nerf Necro" route we will just end up with more traits like Diamond Skin or Blinding Ashes, while Blinding Ashes and Diamond Skin still will be bad.

 

Edit: Ofc Lich Form has to go.

 

I'm personally and maybe its me find they should just make tempest go to spec for support since it already does heal for the ele specs weaver for condi maybe?  although it does strong power too i dunno. I think there is a workaround but maybe adding something unique that only ele can bring and make it useufl such as buff the auras give better boonshare of quickness alacricity maybe?

Edited December 9, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Morwath.9817]

35 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

I'm personally and maybe its me find they should just make tempest go to spec for support since it already does heal for the ele specs weaver for condi maybe?  although it does strong power too i dunno. I think there is a workaround but maybe adding something unique that only ele can bring and make it useufl such as buff the auras give better boonshare of quickness alacricity maybe?

They should aim to make Tempest viable support (as Guardian), Catalyst as team fight damage dealer and Weaver is pretty okay as side node spec, however that doesn't mean Weaver couldn't profit a bit from making Ele core trait lines better.

Edit: Tempest needs mostly group stability.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

Necro has the lowest HP sustain of all meta classes in terms of HP per minute.

What actually should be done is shroud gen nerf for ~30%. So instead of 80% of shroud in 9 second it should be around 50%.
Also Eternal life trait is broken in it's design. It is unfun for both sides and impossible to balance. It should be reverted back to Foot in the Grave.

1- Necro have a high "health pool sustain" simply because LF is health.

2- Nerfing LF gen will only nerf the dynamic of the spec. Want it or not, the necromancer is supposed to try to be in shroud every 10s, is everything point to this goal.

3- What need nerf is the LF pool capacity. As it stand, the LF pool capacity is 69% of the necromancer's health pool. Which mean that 1% LF is equivalent to 132.5 health. So, what need to be done is simply to reduce the amount of health that 1% LF represent by 33% in competitive modes as it would effectively nerf scourge's spammability and core and reaper shroud ability to absorb damage without impacting the dynamic of the profession.

[Morwath.9817]

16 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

1- Necro have a high "health pool sustain" simply because LF is health.

2- Nerfing LF gen will only nerf the dynamic of the spec. Want it or not, the necromancer is supposed to try to be in shroud every 10s, is everything point to this goal.

3- What need nerf is the LF pool capacity. As it stand, the LF pool capacity is 69% of the necromancer's health pool. Which mean that 1% LF is equivalent to 132.5 health. So, what need to be done is simply to reduce the amount of health that 1% LF represent by 33% in competitive modes as it would effectively nerf scourge's spammability and core and reaper shroud ability to absorb damage without impacting the dynamic of the profession.

 

...or rework classic shrouds to more like Harbringer shroud but with damage mitigation (e.g. half of damage would go on health pool and half on shroud, but you could heal Necromancer while hes in Shroud). 

[Dadnir.5038]

24 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

...or rework classic shrouds to more like Harbringer shroud but with damage mitigation (e.g. half of damage would go on health pool and half on shroud, but you could heal Necromancer while hes in Shroud). 

Why bother creating a new mechanism when they can just change a value in a line of code?

[Morwath.9817]

2 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Why bother creating a new mechanism when they can just change a value in a line of code?

Because current Shroud is annoying both for people fighting necro and people trying to support necro. Imho, poor design since beginning...

[Spellhunter.9675]

57 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

LF is health.

It isn't unless you unload all of your damage abilities into it. Which is like unloading all your damage into mist form.

[Dadnir.5038]

57 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Because current Shroud is annoying both for people fighting necro and people trying to support necro. Imho, poor design since beginning...

I don't disagree with the fact that it is poor design, yet I don't think it's likely for the devs to change it for core and reaper after close to a decade of the game being released.