Are Elementalists supposed to be "Mages"?

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

You're confusing technical term of mages with the fantasy term. In MMOs and many other games, the technical term is always used--a squishy player with access to lots of skills, usually with high cast times and/or other tradeoff like mana cost.

 

The mechanical mage trades off the ability to just facetank everything like a melee would in exchange for being able to either lay down some serious damage, CC, or support the team and are generally a priority to target in battles.

 

Ele fits the bar perfectly.

Your mixing up Roll playing in a game for effects in a game (where you can do any thing you want and the roll should not be something you just image up). You just described a roge class more then a mages class with squishy and access to a lot of skills. Mages are caster with high cast times and limited use skills.

Boon stacking and the need to boons stack kill any roll beyond imagination base rolls of class types of mages solder and adventurer the rolls of gw2.

The animation fit perfectly i guess but your fire ball is not burning at all. Is it fire is it magic or is it just light made to look like fire.

[draxynnic.3719]

Yeah, claiming a build 'isn't ranged' because it stays in the boonball in raids/fractals is a bit unfair.

 

A better yardstick is whether it relies on being in close for a significant portion of its damage. Pretty much every DPS tempest build does because if you aren't overloading, why are you playing tempest? While Primordial Stance weavers are...borderline at best. 

 

Need to judge it against situations where being at range is actually practical or even necessary. Stacking in the boonball in raids and fractals is really an encounter design issue, not an issue with any specific profession. Now, I don't think one weaver build addresses all criticism, but if it's viable and not reliant on being in close to work (noting that sceptre builds often are for mightstacking using fire field combos), it's a valid example.

 

As for this whole thing about a 'magic damage type' - most people have accepted that GW2 doesn't have damage types. There's a reason why this thread is in the elementalist forum rather than mesmer or necromancer.

[Jski.6180]

Just now, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, claiming a build 'isn't ranged' because it stays in the boonball in raids/fractals is a bit unfair.

 

A better yardstick is whether it relies on being in close for a significant portion of its damage. Pretty much every DPS tempest build does because if you aren't overloading, why are you playing tempest? While Primordial Stance weavers are...borderline at best. 

 

Need to judge it against situations where being at range is actually practical or even necessary. Stacking in the boonball in raids and fractals is really an encounter design issue, not an issue with any specific profession. Now, I don't think one weaver build addresses all criticism, but if it's viable and not reliant on being in close to work (noting that sceptre builds often are for mightstacking using fire field combos), it's a valid example.

 

As for this whole thing about a 'magic damage type' - most people have accepted that GW2 doesn't have damage types. There's a reason why this thread is in the elementalist forum rather than mesmer or necromancer.

Some how the overloading is magic some how because?

Tell me why would you call any class a ranged caster when they are not using ranged or casting or having any real different between what it casting and what is use of an skill.

 

You guys want the game to look like ppl are using magic but with out being magic if any one comes by and points out that non of this is magic it only looks like magic in both use and balancing why go on and on about the game is made to not be played as if there magic in the game in the first places?

[draxynnic.3719]

8 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Some how the overloading is magic some how because?

Tell me why would you call any class a ranged caster when they are not using ranged or casting or having any real different between what it casting and what is use of an skill.

 

You guys want the game to look like ppl are using magic but with out being magic if any one comes by and points out that non of this is magic it only looks like magic in both use and balancing why go on and on about the game is made to not be played as if there magic in the game in the first places?

Most people judge 'mage' based on playstyle rather than the presence or absence of a damage type. GW1 had elemental damage types. Most of the time, it didn't matter unless you were fighting a warrior or a ranger.

 

Magic has a variety of properties beyond damage types. It offers more exotic utility effects than available to purely physical classes, along with a greater variety in their offensive skills and a higher focus on area attacks while mundane classes are generally focused on melee and/or single-target attacks unless they have access to near-modern technology. GW2 follows that metric, if you consider that most elite specialisations are using overt magic even if the core profession doesn't.

 

The problem is that people are looking for a 'classic mage' playstyle, which also implies a certain stand-off capability, while since 2015 pretty much everything ArenaNet has done for elementalist has been oriented toward close combat apart from the relatively token effort of adding dual skills to sceptre and staff for weaver.

 

Again, there's a reason this thread is in the elementalist forum rather than the mesmer, necromancer, or general profession forum. You're trying to hijack a thread discussing elementalist specifically to air a grievance you have over the game design as a whole.

[Jski.6180]

14 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Most people judge 'mage' based on playstyle rather than the presence or absence of a damage type. GW1 had elemental damage types. Most of the time, it didn't matter unless you were fighting a warrior or a ranger.

 

Magic has a variety of properties beyond damage types. It offers more exotic utility effects than available to purely physical classes, along with a greater variety in their offensive skills and a higher focus on area attacks while mundane classes are generally focused on melee and/or single-target attacks unless they have access to near-modern technology. GW2 follows that metric, if you consider that most elite specialisations are using overt magic even if the core profession doesn't.

 

The problem is that people are looking for a 'classic mage' playstyle, which also implies a certain stand-off capability, while since 2015 pretty much everything ArenaNet has done for elementalist has been oriented toward close combat apart from the relatively token effort of adding dual skills to sceptre and staff for weaver.

 

Again, there's a reason this thread is in the elementalist forum rather than the mesmer, necromancer, or general profession forum. You're trying to hijack a thread discussing elementalist specifically to air a grievance you have over the game design as a whole.

But your not playing it like a mages in the game your playing it like "stander" dps sitting in a boon ball.

Magic still has the effect of the skill type though if you dont have burning on things like fire balls then its not realty a fire ball its just for show. Technology if it uses a "fire ball" some how it would burn what ever it hits it was a major complete for flame thrower not having burn on it. There countless "magic" skills ele has that do nothing more then dmg numbers they dont even have means of being unblockable or some means of bypassing def in any real way.

The game not set up for mage play-style and its best not to play as a mage because its not a mages it only looks like one.

You dont see these on mes or necro forms because they talk about missing unblockable effects (you will see for mez due to the elite spec from EoD) and necro HAS magic attk though wells being unblockable with boon strips as well as many means of counter dmg mitigation. If you took these things from necro or from mez you would see them blow up. You do see these things but its more a talk about classes missing effects. The ideal of "mage" is tide to these added effects or you know your just fire arrows at targets that look like they are magic.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Jski.6180

[draxynnic.3719]

Again, boon balls are a problem with encounter design rather than profession design. If we had an endgame boss where it was impossible or highly impractical to melee them, we'd see which ranged builds are really practical in that environment. Otherwise, you can judge a profession's ranged potential in other environments, such as open world, solo instances, and competitive.

 

Thing is, you don't see these threads in mesmer or necromancer because those professions do have solid ranged options. They have decent ranged weapons that haven't been nerfed to death like elementalist staff, and elite specialisations that aren't oriented towards fighting enemies that are 360 units or less away, and the core profession for each is significantly more competitive than elementalist core. That's why you don't see this sort of complaint in those forums. Obviously, they do have other complaints, but the lack of a magic damage type is not one of them.

 

As for other aspects of your argument - elementalism is ultimately a more 'physical' form of magic than mesmerism or necromancy, since it's based around the manipulation of material elements. That was the case in GW1 just as it is now. We didn't have this sort of complaint in GW1, since playing GW1 elementalist as the typical "stand of and blast" mage was not only viable but the default, while since 2015 ArenaNet has been pushing GW2 elementalist into a close-in battlemage while the ranged version has only received nerfs and table scraps.

 

Ultimately, the contention you're arguing is not what this thread is about.

Edited December 25, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Again, boon balls are a problem with encounter design rather than profession design. If we had an endgame boss where it was impossible or highly impractical to melee them, we'd see which ranged builds are really practical in that environment. Otherwise, you can judge a profession's ranged potential in other environments, such as open world, solo instances, and competitive.

 

Thing is, you don't see these threads in mesmer or necromancer because those professions do have solid ranged options. They have decent ranged weapons that haven't been nerfed to death like elementalist staff, and elite specialisations that aren't oriented towards fighting enemies that are 360 units or less away, and the core profession for each is significantly more competitive than elementalist core. That's why you don't see this sort of complaint in those forums. Obviously, they do have other complaints, but the lack of a magic damage type is not one of them.

 

As for other aspects of your argument - elementalism is ultimately a more 'physical' form of magic than mesmerism or necromancy, since it's based around the manipulation of material elements. That was the case in GW1 just as it is now. We didn't have this sort of complaint in GW1, since playing GW1 elementalist as the typical "stand of and blast" mage was not only viable but the default, while since 2015 ArenaNet has been pushing GW2 elementalist into a close-in battlemage while the ranged version has only received nerfs and table scraps.

 

Ultimately, the contention you're arguing is not what this thread is about.

Its not like these boon balls are new its been 2 expansion at this point where they have been a problem nothing getting fixed if any thing it seems like they are getting worst. It realty takes out the flavor of the game and classes.

They have the effects that one could call "magic" and realy having skills that cant be reflected is a major effect for a mages class. But to have spells reflected back just kills it for the ideal of magic. Mez dose not realy use elemental magic nor dose necro (though a lot of necro death spells do have condis and soft cc tide to them so there is reason to ask for ele skills to have at the very least elemental effect to the skill they are using). I already see a lot of EoD expansion talk about reflection for mez and even necro elite spec being a major problem (necro exliser can be reflected could be a bug of a fetcher).

My main argument is the lack of counter dmg mitigation and element skills not having elemental effects. Counter dmg mitigation means nothing in pve most of the time sadly just spvp/wvw. The elemental skills not having elemental effects is a very valid issues that fits here and is a problem in pve as well wvw/spvp. I just want a FIRE ball to set things on fire is it that hard to ask for? Even back in the day Glyph of Elemental Power lets you take the element you where in on casting to give you added effect for the full duration of the effect not some charge on hit effect mess we have now. That a 2015 anet was pushing till May 16, 2017 when it was removed for what it is now. So i suggest anet back then wanted ele element to at the least have some "on hit" effect full time but Anet of 2017 killed magic.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

30 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Its not like these boon balls are new its been 2 expansion at this point where they have been a problem nothing getting fixed if any thing it seems like they are getting worst. It realty takes out the flavor of the game and classes.

They have the effects that one could call "magic" and realy having skills that cant be reflected is a major effect for a mages class. But to have spells reflected back just kills it for the ideal of magic. Mez dose not realy use elemental magic nor dose necro (though a lot of necro death spells do have condis and soft cc tide to them so there is reason to ask for ele skills to have at the very least elemental effect to the skill they are using). I already see a lot of EoD expansion talk about reflection for mez and even necro elite spec being a major problem (necro exliser can be reflected could be a bug of a fetcher).

You know "spell reflection" has been a thing in D&D since the 80s at the latest, right? While arrow reflection is quite a bit less common in fantasy?

 

Elementalist does have the ability to get around projectile hate, though. Apart from fireball and phoenix, for instance, pretty much every ranged fire skill is a non-projectile.

Quote

My main argument is the lack of counter dmg mitigation and element skills not having elemental effects. Counter dmg mitigation means nothing in pve most of the time sadly just spvp/wvw. The elemental skills not having elemental effects is a very valid issues that fits here and is a problem in pve as well wvw/spvp. I just want a FIRE ball to set things on fire is it that hard to ask for? Even back in the day Glyph of Elemental Power lets you take the element you where in on casting to give you added effect for the full duration of the effect not some charge on hit effect mess we have now. That a 2015 anet was pushing till May 16, 2017 when it was removed for what it is now. So i suggest anet back then wanted ele element to at the least have some "on hit" effect full time but Anet of 2017 killed magic.

 

You want Burning Precision. Sure, it doesn't apply burning on every hit, but neither does flamethrower. It's also another fantasy staple that "fireball" doesn't set things on fire unless they're really flammable - in D&D, for instance, it'll destroy paper and the like, but it won't set enemies on fire unless they're already covered in oil or there's some other factor which in the DM's discretion increases their flammability.

 

Don't think I haven't noticed that you've shifted the argument away from your earlier focus on damage types. While I'd agree in principle that a system having damage types would be deeper than one without, ArenaNet's decided that it's not worth the overhead, and I'm not convinced that I disagree on that. 

 

Elementalist damage is, fundamentally, physical effects conjured by magic. If damage types WERE introduced, elementalists would have the same types as engineers. Fire. Lightning. Cold. Earth is basically a combination of blunt, sharp, and abrasive grit (hello shotgun). The difference is that engineers can only do what is believable to do with technology - which usually means projectiles or relatively short-ranged effects - while elementalists can call lightning from the sky, trigger eruptions beneath someone's feet, or set the air around somebody aflame. But ultimately, it's still a physical attack, and therefore a physical attack that you can defend against through insulation and/or armour. The difference between fire created through technological means and magical means is immaterial in terms of the effect it has on the target - if anything, technological means are probably more dangerous, since they usually involve some form of burning material that will continue to burn after hitting the target, while something like a fireball is just a burst of heat and then it's gone. 'Course, elementalists aren't exactly lacking in the ability to inflict burning. It's just that it's generally most effective at close ranges... and now we return back to the topic.

Edited December 26, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Jski.6180]

4 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You know "spell reflection" has been a thing in D&D since the 80s at the latest, right? While arrow reflection is quite a bit less common in fantasy?

 

Elementalist does have the ability to get around projectile hate, though. Apart from fireball and phoenix, for instance, pretty much every ranged fire skill is a non-projectile.

You want Burning Precision. Sure, it doesn't apply burning on every hit, but neither does flamethrower. It's also another fantasy staple that "fireball" doesn't set things on fire unless they're really flammable - in D&D, for instance, it'll destroy paper and the like, but it won't set enemies on fire unless they're already covered in oil or there's some other factor which in the DM's discretion increases their flammability.

 

Don't think I haven't noticed that you've shifted the argument away from your earlier focus on damage types. While I'd agree in principle that a system having damage types would be deeper than one without, ArenaNet's decided that it's not worth the overhead, and I'm not convinced that I disagree on that. 

 

Elementalist damage is, fundamentally, physical effects conjured by magic. If damage types WERE introduced, elementalists would have the same types as engineers. Fire. Lightning. Cold. Earth is basically a combination of blunt, sharp, and abrasive grit (hello shotgun). The difference is that engineers can only do what is believable to do with technology - which usually means projectiles or relatively short-ranged effects - while elementalists can call lightning from the sky, trigger eruptions beneath someone's feet, or set the air around somebody aflame. But ultimately, it's still a physical attack, and therefore a physical attack that you can defend against through insulation and/or armour. The difference between fire created through technological means and magical means is immaterial in terms of the effect it has on the target - if anything, technological means are probably more dangerous, since they usually involve some form of burning material that will continue to burn after hitting the target, while something like a fireball is just a burst of heat and then it's gone. 'Course, elementalists aren't exactly lacking in the ability to inflict burning. It's just that it's generally most effective at close ranges... and now we return back to the topic.

There is but the effect would not stop physical attks see the issues is trying to add some spration from a fire ball and an arrow so you can mix things up for fights. If its just "dmg skill here" then its not important what going on and there just no reason to play different classes. Your often not a mage your a stander dps class.

Fire ball is very much blockable phoenix is not ( i have a feeling that has more to do with the boon nacher of the skill tide to it) but phoenix has burning on it fire ball dose not.

That just burning though and only though crits you can and should be able to get effects out side of crit effects by simply being and using the element of skills.

Its the same argument magic attks vs physical attks magic attks being counter dmg mitigation and the elemental of the attks holding the elements added effect.

Anet throws away content as they add it in there view on worth of updates to older or even not the last thing added seems very flawed.

Why dose fire often not burn lighting often dose not shock cold dose not chill or water make wet and earth dose not seem to bash or cut. The atument system feels more like simply swapping out animations of skill not there effects. Look i am doing RED dmg vs PURPLE dmg vs BLUE dmg vs YELLOW dmg. Ele is just not a mage.

[Vilin.8056]

11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

@Jski.6180

From description : "Pretty nice build considering your entire damage is ranged (except transmute fire aura). "
and then you post "none of them are ranged" ...
They're in melee for boons, but it doesn't make the build melee. That's like saying condi scourge is a melee build.

 

It's a melee build, as long as the rotation remain limited in the radius of Lighting hammer, FGS, overload Lighting/Fire.

[frareanselm.1925]

On 12/24/2021 at 9:39 PM, Artemis.8034 said:

Im upset i bought this game only to find out there are no ranged mage like classes. When they clearly show magic casters in the previews. But everything is melee, even the casters. They are tone deaf to the players, i have seen many posting on ranged caster for elementalist , but looking at all the elite specs and reading what people say its all melee. To me that means they dont know how to balance a game properly, where is the variety, the class fantasy? Stack here and swing weapon ----> just isnt going to make me happy its awkward and boring.

I feel you. I other mmos I loved the kind of mage that casted long but powerful balls of fire, I used to use some food or potion to accelerate the casting times and this was like an archance cannoneer. The most similar that we got in GW2 after the staff nerf is power scepter but most bosses move too much to be hit by Dragon's tooth.

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

It's a melee build, as long as the rotation remain limited in the radius of Lighting hammer, FGS, overload Lighting/Fire.

The scepter weaver is not.

If you call 300 range melee range I don't know what to say, it's midline at the very least. That's why aura tempest is midline aura tempest. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Midline_Auramancer

There's also nothing stopping someone from swapping Lightning Hammer for arcane Blast for example.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Infusion.7149]

18 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

Good effort trying to convince people.

However, you cannot convince those who argue in bad faith, and refuse to acknowledge balance and video evidence.

Many people complain with an ulterior motive. They believe by leaving dishonest feedback, they can mislead and nudge balance into giving them certain buffs, and weapon choices.

Others simply cannot accept when they simply fail at a class, so they blame balance instead, as a a coping mechanism.

Some simply have an internal roleplay they want to force onto the game. Such as the whole argument about Ele not being "mage"-enough, since some people want to replicate a carbon copy of their childhood experiences from other games. (Like those who insist on calling Ranger "Hunter" and blasting it for not having Rifle, like a certain other game...)

It's worse than that, it gets classes buffs that are meaningless performance-wise for actual content (i.e. instanced PVE, WVW, PVP) , when people complain about non-issues. If someone is going to RP a mage or something then staff (as a support weapon in PVE or DPS in WVW) or scepter is more than fine.

Let's say ele gets a stronger staff like in pre-2018 era when tempest was doing 70K DPS on large hitbox. All that will happen is people will stack tempest on large hitbox and get it nerfed everywhere. Range is supposed to be less sustained damage than melee because it is inherently less risky , the exception is meteor shower which has a huge drawback of cast time and self-root.

Even now in the WvW forum, rangers players are complaining about reflects when there is an obvious solution of not playing a useless projectile only build and actually paying attention.

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The scepter weaver is not.

If you call 300 range melee range I don't know what to say, it's midline at the very least. That's why aura tempest is midline aura tempest. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Midline_Auramancer

There's also nothing stopping someone from swapping Lightning Hammer for arcane Blast for example.

If we go with anet point of view 600 its "ranged" seeing that the ranged on catalyes hammer.

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

If we go with anet point of view 600 its "ranged" seeing that the ranged on catalyes hammer.

600 range is ranged, it just isn't competitive in WVW and PVP.

If PVE mobs for example have a phase shift ring or the Nightmare 98CM rings that cascade out, 600 is "ranged".

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The scepter weaver is not.

If you call 300 range melee range I don't know what to say, it's midline at the very least. That's why aura tempest is midline aura tempest. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Midline_Auramancer

There's also nothing stopping someone from swapping Lightning Hammer for arcane Blast for example.

300 range is melee though or melee+, but it's not mid range.
Midline in this case doesn't stand for max range, but for a flexible role that can cover different ranges.
Like you have this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Frontline_Aurashare and the only thing that has really changed from your linked one is weapon.

 

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

300 range is melee though or melee+, but it's not mid range.
Midline in this case doesn't stand for max range, but for a flexible role that can cover different ranges.
Like you have this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Tempest_-_Frontline_Aurashare and the only thing that has really changed from your linked one is weapon.

 

I guess you are living up to your username by trolling and saying a staff is not "midline". Frontline aurashare uses a dagger so really of course it is more of a frontliner as air auto is 240 range, fire/water are 400-600, and earth is just bad generally due to bleeding and 300 range. Drake's Breath and Cone of Cold both are 400 range.

As an analogy you might as well say shortbow soulbeast is not ranged because  the only difference is dagger+torch uses a different weaponset.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

10 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

600 range is ranged, it just isn't competitive in WVW and PVP.

If PVE mobs for example have a phase shift ring or the Nightmare 98CM rings that cascade out, 600 is "ranged".

I get the feeling it was just pve aimed though the orb is only 200 ranged so it is still a melee effect. Anets point of view what you should be doing in a pve fight seems very flawed.

If ele was a "true" mages and realty all true ranged classes should be able to stand comply on there own buff and boons should be more for classes who must go into melee. I realty think the game needs to move away from dps boons as an support tool and just simple put dps boons on the "ranged" dps classes for self only.

[Infusion.7149]

9 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I get the feeling it was just pve aimed though the orb is only 200 ranged so it is still a melee effect. Anets point of view what you should be doing in a pve fight seems very flawed.

If ele was a "true" mages and realty all true ranged classes should be able to stand comply on there own buff and boons should be more for classes who must go into melee. I realty think the game needs to move away from dps boons as an support tool and just simple put dps boons on the "ranged" dps classes for self only.

They have that, go pylon on QtP.

For a short while people tried to pylon on Boneskinner and realized it is worse than stacking and healing even when it was bugged , see "Boneskinner 3.0" clears.

Also with catalyst putting out quickness you could probably run staff mirage / shrotbow ren for alac and full range Deimos like inexp groups that don't want to melee Deimos.

At the end of the day unless you want Arenanet to make bosses that can one shot people at range it is unlikely that melee tanking will change.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

27 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I guess you are living up to your username by trolling and saying a staff is not "midline". Frontline aurashare uses a dagger so really of course it is more of a frontliner as air auto is 240 range, fire/water are 400-600, and earth is just bad generally due to bleeding and 300 range. Drake's Breath and Cone of Cold both are 400 range.

As an analogy you might as well say shortbow soulbeast is not ranged because  the only difference is dagger+torch uses a different weaponset.

I can't.
Staff is 1200 range, meaning it's long range, meaning it SHOULD be mostly used as a backline role. It can be used as midline, but it doesn't make it "midline weapon", get real. 
Midline is a role within zerg groups, it's not "max possible range" of a class indicator...

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I can't.
Staff is 1200 range, meaning it's long range, meaning it SHOULD be mostly used as a backline role. It can be used as midline, but it doesn't make it "midline weapon", get real. 
Midline is a role within zerg groups, it's not "max possible range" of a class indicator...

I'm pretty sure nobody runs minstrel backline.

If it was backline it would be far glassier and running marauder or something like magi.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

17 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm pretty sure nobody runs minstrel backline.

If it was backline it would be far glassier and running marauder or something like magi.

There is a lack of an "mage" support class often you are a tankly support who may just happen to have 1,200 ranged.

[Shiyo.3578]

Staff = mage. Other weapons = not mage.

Sword Weaver = Blue mage.

Hammer Catalyst = enhancement shaman.

D/D base ele = FFXI dancer.

[draxynnic.3719]

~300 range is basically melee. Sure, it's just out of reach of most 'I swing my sword' attacks, but PBAOES on melee weapons often extend out that far. Elementalist dagger is a case in point. This goes double when an effect is centered on the player, like overloads - hitting multiple targets with a 360 radius air overload, let alone a 180 radius fire overload, usually means you have at least one enemy within sword's length.

 

Personally, I don't think anything can realistically be called 'ranged' until it's at least 400.

 

Any tempest that uses overloads offensively is effectively going into melee. The difference between a dagger tempest and a scepter/staff tempest is whether they stay there or it's an in-and-out routine.

[fuzzyp.6295]

This is such a ridiculous argument to be having, yes of course Elementalist is a mage. Mage does not mean they stand in the back, shoot fireballs and do nothing else. Honestly though, why are we even still trying to apply the definition of other games and universes to GW2? If they said Warrior was a mage because adrenaline was a magical resource, then its a mage.