So er, are people content with Core Legends being dogshit in Competitive? A Shiro discussion.

[Jobber.6348]

I feel like Shiro has been progressively being gutted then forgotten forever. 
We even have had nerfs to the main outlier of Power Herald which is Pulsing Fury + Incensed Response, but no reverts were made to put some power back into Shiro, or at least QoL or a mini rework. 

People have also gradually stopped talking about making Shiro better. Are we just ignoring the fact a Core Legend is just poo poo bad now? 
 

I think Shiro needs either a small revert or rework. 
For one, Impossible Odds cost too much to be used in competitive. The energy cost of Riposting Shadows is also really high for no other reason than because it's a bloated skill. 
 

I think a rework may be more effective in rebalancing Shiro's power while making him more usable. 

 

Current Shiro: 
Enchanted Daggers - 5 Daggers with minor initial heal, heals and damage for each dagger. 5 Energy

Riposting Shadows - Breaks stun, restores 15 Endurance, removes movement condi, gives Fury, 40 Energy

Phase Traversal - Deals damage, 1200 teleport, unblockable, next 2 strikes are unblockable, 30 Energy

Impossible Odds - Enables a second strike (can critically strike), increases move speed by 50%, -6 WvW -8 PvP

Jade Winds - Stuns, deals damage (?), applies vuln, 50 Energy 

Let's discuss how to make Shiro better, or suggest some changes. 

 

[Jobber.6348]

I think Anet could at least make Impossible Odds the same drain between WvW and PvP, and at the same time rebalance its double striking so it doesn't deal so much damage. 

I think it would be nice if Shiro has more innate sustain due to how his Enchanted Daggers aren't so much a heal skill than a damage skill, and it would be thematically fitting if Impossible Odds stole health like GW1 Shiro. 

I'm suggesting that Shiro's Impossible Odds damage be changed to a Siphon instead, dealing uncritable damage and has a base heal. I think 300 damage and 150 heal is pretty reasonable for the Energy drain. 

 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Honestly I think Shiro is fine in WvW. The nerfs are definitely still noticeable on Herald since you can't take Charged Mists, but I never really feel like Shiro is weak or in need of buffs when I play it. I am not opposed to them taking off some of the bloat from RS to bring down its energy cost, but I believe ANet intends on wanting to keep it at 40e to prevent it from being spammed more. It was essentially Rev's version of getting cooldown increases on its stunbreak skills.

 

I imagine the PvE community would riot if IO got changed to lifesteal as that would be a massive dps loss. The current iteration is very strong, especially considering you can stack it with quickness, which was not possible on IO's previous iteration. 

 

I don't really have a problem with Shiro's heal at all either since the siphon does a lot of damage and core Rev's heals never got nerfed in the big balance patch, leaving them to be quite respectable. There is counterplay to the heals, but they still add up to a nice amount considering we have 2 heals.

 

Honestly the two things I think the core legends need are:

1. Make Ventari a bit more reactive/fluid in order to make the legend a more reliable support option.

2. Carve out a niche for Mallyx in regards to resistance and its condition management, which has been diluted and muddled since the resistance rework.

[Aeolus.3615]

Core legends m8 have  one or other skill that is a litle bit energy consuming, outside of that i dont think that its that bad, but  or Anet improve slighty the skill to make it worth the energy price or Anet would reduce energy consuption, imo this is the QoL that core rev  atm is needing.

[Silesium.5623]

I gone say is kitten me over all that reve and thife are energry classes but thife have harder hits and more flexy moves, yet reve use energy for all weapon/utility skills and they seem weak/nerfed to much. Also waiting for some balance changes to reve core as since retalation(resolution) and torment changes we still diden't have changes to traits. I bet that some rev main as me dont even use some traits cos they have no good use or are out dated. Some of it Replenishing Despair/Close Quarters/Versed in Stone/Resolute Evasion/Brutality. That the traits I never use cos they have not good use in any mode.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

The kit is still veryyyy strong in PvP, even with the high energy costs.  In WvW it's really only ever been used as a roamer legend and is still quite strong for that as well.  The only core legend that is truly lacking at the moment in competitive is Ventari.  Mallyx's condi resistance is bad, but the rest of the kit is still functional and Jalis's stability, taunt, heal, etc. are still amazing. 

I don't think Shiro is in a bad spot at the moment (the fact that all top tier teams are STILL using it on their power herald and renegade builds says something); it just has to be played like an actual Assassin now instead of like a melee brawler.

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Silesium.5623 said:

I gone say is kitten me over all that reve and thife are energry classes but thife have harder hits and more flexy moves, yet reve use energy for all weapon/utility skills and they seem weak/nerfed to much. Also waiting for some balance changes to reve core as since retalation(resolution) and torment changes we still diden't have changes to traits. I bet that some rev main as me dont even use some traits cos they have no good use or are out dated. Some of it Replenishing Despair/Close Quarters/Versed in Stone/Resolute Evasion/Brutality. That the traits I never use cos they have not good use in any mode.

 

Replenishing Despair it is  used on condi builds that transfer condis to target being from sigil or with the deamon trait skill that activates on legend swap, overtime will be a good chunk of torment on target, it a strong trait but its not for everyone to use, if u have a helper CC'ing ur target this trait is a nighmare for who is being atacked... this trait on the hands  of a decent group can open holes in the ground :)

Close Quarters, Versed in stone,  used in some revs that play very squishy on large gameplay, zerker hammer revs that offers damage and damage reductions to the party and CQ helps to cover the lack of armor from berzerker stats and alikes, versed in stone is nice to help resolution and other skills to reduce the condi bomb on pushing. Core berzerker rev its very  nice to play and some of this traits play its game.

 

Resolution Evasions is amazing for renegades and most WvW jalis zerkers another source of  reduce condi  damage,  renegades can get a good chunk of resolution with Kala legend trait  Wrought-Iron Will.

Brutality is mandatory for most power revs on pvp gameplay  quickness plus boon removal  and will remove stability always in 1st place, good trait for pvp.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Silesium.5623]

18 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Replenishing Despair it is  used on condi builds that transfer condis to target being from sigil or with the deamon trait skill that activates on legend swap, overtime will be a good chunk of torment on target, it a strong trait but its not for everyone to use, if u have a helper CC'ing ur target this trait is a nighmare for who is being atacked... this trait on the hands  of a decent group can open holes in the ground 🙂

Close Quarters, Versed in stone,  used in some revs that play very squishy on large gameplay, zerker hammer revs that offers damage and damage reductions to the party and CQ helps to cover the lack of armor from berzerker stats and alikes, versed in stone is nice to help resolution and other skills to reduce the condi bomb on pushing. Core berzerker rev its very  nice to play and some of this traits play its game.

 

Resolution Evasions is amazing for renegades and most WvW jalis zerkers another source of  reduce condi  damage,  renegades can get a good chunk of resolution with Kala legend trait  Wrought-Iron Will.

Brutality is mandatory for most power revs on pvp gameplay  quickness plus boon removal  and will remove stability always in 1st place, good trait for pvp.

 

Just saying that I don't use them and I bet like 70% of rev mains are the some. Also don't know if we talk about meta builds that dont use those traits as there is way better options.

[Buran.3796]

  I don't see the problem. Is playable; mostly unused due Herald and Renegade are better, but thats in part due Glint is well designed for PvP and the shortbow pisses on the ranged alternative core has (hammer).  But any Rev user has access to Herald, so as happens with Ventari, you just chose what it works and ditch the rest.

   Still, better than Vindicator.

[Curennos.9307]

I feel like (and am pretty confident this is the case) that anet crammed a bunch of stuff into legend utilities because that's **all** they get, so they have to be multi-purpose a lot of the time. Which is unfortunate when you don't need all that 100% of the time.

 

Context: I'm a sPvPer. I don't really touch wvw, and PvE sparingly. From a PvE perspective I'd say Impossible Odds needs to be equalized with Dwarf's Vengeful Hammers, as I've seen hammers used for DPS more and more

 

 

Riposting Shadows - Breaks stun, restores 15 Endurance, removes movement condi, gives Fury, 40 Energy, evade.

 

Couldn't anet just change the skill so that if it DOESN'T break a stun, the cost decreases? Or, probably easier but...the cost increases per extra thing it does. Base cost of like...30. Use it and don't break a stun? Costs 30 eng. End up breaking a stun? +10 cost. Etc. Could do the same for other parts of the skill - lower base cost, then increase cost if it removes movement impairing conditions. 

 

Having something that stunbreaks, evades, cleanses, and restores endurance would be amazing on other classes - and, to be fair, it's a strong skill on rev too, but the whole energy mechanic adds in a bit of complexity. I would divvy up the cost between the 'base' skill of evade + end restore + fury, then only have it increase in cost up to a max of 40 if the skill is used for the additional things - stunbreak, cleanse. 

 

My beef with Impossible Odds is similar - nice skill, makes autos hit like trucks, but because of the energy mechanic it's **boring**. I don't really find AAing stuff to death very fun, even if pretty number make monkey brain happy. I'd much prefer if they increases the risk/reward of the skill - costs more, but if you actually hit someone with it...idk, energy cost reduction/return? Energy return (not so much that the energy consumption is net-zero, but a decent amount) plus a stack of might?

 

My second idea is likely too convoluted but imma throw it out anyway - imagine if the skill added no dmg to your autos, but each auto hit that landed gave the rev a stacking buff, and using a skill could 'spend' the stacks when using a skill to add on a burst, instead of something more over-time. Challenge mode in that consecutive AAs have to land to maintain stacks. Miss one and they gone, or ya lose a stack. Ofc rev burst is already pretty high so this is....probably not the best idea I've ever come up with, but still. This is the kind of interactivity I hope anet eventually gets around to implementing. Whatever the case, make it better/more interactive then slap a short cooldown on it afterward so it can't be repeatedly activated/canceled if need be.

 

Mind, I don't have beef with the energy mechanic - I just wish anet took it into better consideration when designing utilities. There are a few easy (seemingly) changes to be made that could make things a lot more interesting. Just slap this concept onto Phase Traversal - landing the damage part of the gap closer gives some 'x' benefit, be it a boon, cost decrease, etc/missing has a downside. Admittedly for phase traversal I'd prefer they just remove the unblockable then decrease the cost, but that's just me. It sucks having a skill that does 'x', and being charged the energy cost for it, when you rarely ever actually benefit from the extra effect. I can't recall a time within the past couple months I actually noticed the unblockable on phase traversal. Maybe I just don't fight enough blocking opponents, who knows.

 

I also think part of the issue rev has is 'the other legend'. Shiro is a strong, but energy hungry legend. An AoE CC + vuln stacks, evade that's also a stunbreak and end restore, a teleport that does damage and is unblockable, something to make your AAs hit really hard...These are all really cool but energy hungry skills, and it's hard to run Charged Mists when Glint Facets aren't (imo) really worth upkeeping. You usually see revs fire off the Glint skills relatively quickly, as they're a lot more worthwhile than the boons. The only real decent upkeep one is the ult, which gives prot but is also attached to a strong AoE CC. Which, I suppose is a decent trade off, but Glint just doesn't consume enough energy to make Charged Mists worth it. And Shiro is so energy hungry it could be worth it, but then you really don't have anything to use that extra energy boost on in Glint. In pvp, anyway - I haven't kept up with rev's viability (or lack thereof) as a boon bot in PvE for a while.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I am not content with revenant being +1 class that can't really escape for kitten

[Aeolus.3615]

On 1/6/2022 at 5:17 PM, Silesium.5623 said:

Just saying that I don't use them and I bet like 70% of rev mains are the some. Also don't know if we talk about meta builds that dont use those traits as there is way better options.

Just because metabuilds  dont use them doesnt mean that those traits are bad or in bad state 🙂 , there are people that can play pretty well  w/o copy paste builds.

Ill keep sayign rev issue is enerngy price on some skills and i might add that  jalis elite and traited its just amazing... if people dont  realize how broken the mechanics involved on it and what this skill affects  on WvW, i wont  explain either.

atm i think the worse performing legend on rev m8 be herald that has been completelly swaped with renegades, core suffers from a bit of energy creep moments withing some skills that could be lessened on energy consumption, dont forget that skills on rev have both energy management and CD's.

 

3 hours ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

I am not content with revenant being +1 class that can't really escape for kitten

 

And that is why for rev playes the EoD expantion means End of Dodges....  runing away is for bendover guardian  spec...

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[ArthurDent.9538]

I would like energy costs across the board to go down also revert that stupid cool down increase on phase traversal. Frankly I would like most utility weapon skills across all classes to be brought back to where they were before that one February patch as high cool downs is slower pace but even more spammy especially with weapon skills as when everything is on cd the tendency is to just fire off whatever skill comes off cd next rather than using the most appropriate skill. And high utility cds just makes matchups more decided by what resources they still have available at the start. As an extreme example if I attack reaper with lich on cd he's dead way before it'll be available, but if he has lich then he wins just by using it unless i have good abusable terrain.

[Telgum.6071]

Shiro is good in WvW and "ok" in PvP, the Phase Traversal CD does not make sense imo.

I think Shiro shouldn't have so high energy cost, but it isn't dogshit at all.

Neither are Jalis or Mallyx.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Shiro is insanely strong and you want to buff it? Dwarf is very strong, Mallyx was nerfed because of resistance but aside from that its very strong. Only ventari is in a weird spot because its purely a support legend.

[Catchyfx.5768]

Shiro is somewhat mandatory because it provide you movement,evade frame, and stunbreak you dont have to cast. movement is modt important in pvp scenario. Shiro alone doesnt do dmg aside from jalis or mallyx, but makes you mobile.

 

If you take meta power shiro and change legend shiro to jalis,mallyx,ventari you became toothless, because most of classes will outrun you. You will keep teamfight boost for allies, that is true.

Back tI topic.

Shiro is in ok spot for me, only problem i have is upkeep cost and blink CD

[Aeolus.3615]

22 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

I would like energy costs across the board to go down also revert that stupid cool down increase on phase traversal. Frankly I would like most utility weapon skills across all classes to be brought back to where they were before that one February patch as high cool downs is slower pace but even more spammy especially with weapon skills as when everything is on cd the tendency is to just fire off whatever skill comes off cd next rather than using the most appropriate skill. And high utility cds just makes matchups more decided by what resources they still have available at the start. As an extreme example if I attack reaper with lich on cd he's dead way before it'll be available, but if he has lich then he wins just by using it unless i have good abusable terrain.

Meanwhile  that's al that the EoD rev spec is, low CD and low energy consuption lol.... 

teaming up the 3 canthan legends on the same build on very dps stats actually felt amazing, still weaker than PoF and HoT  gimicks  but still very fun.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Silesium.5623]

That times when impossible odds had quicknes and super speed ❤️

[Aeolus.3615]

36 minutes ago, Silesium.5623 said:

That times when impossible odds had quicknes and super speed ❤️

adding 1 or 2 secs of those back into the skill would be nice... its basicly a 40e cost skill costs almost  as much as shiro elite skill >_>

Shiro design should be costy skills i would be ok with that and i think that was the legend initial design, but should have REAL TRADE OFF's  for its half energy bar cost utilities.

It m8 be just  QoL a situation, but  theres so much  QoL to do in this game that Anet had to use "Dungeons  to store QoL situations".   

Edited January 8, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Zenith.7301]

Shiro is undertuned garbage in all content, not just PvP.

 

The entirety of revenant's core power weapons and legends are overnerfed.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Zenith.7301

[ArthurDent.9538]

4 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Meanwhile  that's al that the EoD rev spec is, low CD and low energy consuption lol.... 

teaming up the 3 canthan legends on the same build on very dps stats actually felt amazing, still weaker than PoF and HoT  gimicks  but still very fun.

I agree, I really liked the new alliance stance, not a big fan of the whole dodge mechanic but I definitely find vindicator more engaging than renegade over the betas, just hope the meta doesn't end up settling on jalis + shiro.

[Buran.3796]

3 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Shiro is undertuned garbage in all content, not just PvP.

 

The entirety of revenant's core power weapons and legends are overnerfed.

   Yep. ANet increased the energy cost, added cooldowns, removed the quickness and then nerfed Charged Mist in PvP so bad that no longer exists in that game mode.

   But is the same approach they took to every balance conflict they find: "oh, this amulet is too strong with some skils/classes, let's remove it" "oh, this elite skill pays so much, lets put a 300 seconds cooldown on it so in fact dissapears from the game" "oh this specs have nice things, let's remove evades, or 300 armor points, or one leg from the class so no one could call them op again -neither probably had the guts to-".

   Release GW2 combat gameplay = chess.

   2021 GW2 combat gameplay = chekers.

   2022 GW2 combat cameplay = tic tac toe.

[Shao.7236]

Stop asking for ridiculous buffs, Shiro is in a good position and doesn't need much of a change. Impossible Odds is at best the only thing that needs to be tweaked in the upkeep cost. Anything else is bug fixes that makes things such as IR Initial Stability/hitbox inconsistency or Aggressive Agility being inconsistent alongside not working with Phase Smash.

 

Mallyx is what really needs to be properly addressed. Charged Mists requires a complete rework and should be a plain increase in the energy cap to 75% rather than even have this stupid requirement.

 

Big L2P issues if you think Core Revenant is underpowered.

 

12 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Shiro is insanely strong and you want to buff it? Dwarf is very strong, Mallyx was nerfed because of resistance but aside from that its very strong. Only ventari is in a weird spot because its purely a support legend.

Ventari is good only if you team actually knows that spastically running around doesn't help them while healing unless it's getting out of an AoE. The legend could use an initial tether but is otherwise great with good teams.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Jobber.6348]

4 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Big L2P issues if you think Core Revenant is underpowered.

I didn't say Core Revenant was underpowered, but I'm merely bringing up the fact that Shiro right now is downright garbage. 
Most of the time, Shiro is being carried heavily by traitline passives and the other Legend. 

Shiro on its own is such a massive disadvantage that just swapping into it in combat is opening yourself up to so much counterplay it's not funny. Shiro needs a rebalance, not just leaving it as it is with high energy cost with bloated skills. This lack of consistency that Shiro has is what plauges its performance, not a matter of "is it overpowered or underpowered" 

People have been begging Anet to rebalance Shiro since forever but they kept pushing it away in favour of cheap and easy "balances" like increasing Energy costs and picking apart skill functionality, but then failing to rebalance the Energy cost after.
 

Example: Phase Traversal 

It was actually fairly balanced once they slapped away the 25% bonus damage but at the same time Rev was still powerful because Incensed Response has not yet been nerfed. 

Then even after Incensed was nerfed, they increased its cooldown to 12s. 7 whole seconds up from the 5s original cooldown ontop of the skill costing 35 energy already, which is 1/3 of your Energy or more than half of a fresh swap. Combined with the nerf to Charged Mists, simply using ANYTHING of Shiro's kit is a massive drain. 

I think it's high time Core Legends were all looked at and rebalanced, because Anet's balance team has totally stripped apart all of what makes Rev originally unique, turning them into basic cooldown based classes with an additional Energy mechanic to gate them. 

[Shao.7236]

3 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I didn't say Core Revenant was underpowered, but I'm merely bringing up the fact that Shiro right now is downright garbage. 
Most of the time, Shiro is being carried heavily by traitline passives and the other Legend. 

Shiro on its own is such a massive disadvantage that just swapping into it in combat is opening yourself up to so much counterplay it's not funny. Shiro needs a rebalance, not just leaving it as it is with high energy cost with bloated skills. This lack of consistency that Shiro has is what plauges its performance, not a matter of "is it overpowered or underpowered" 

People have been begging Anet to rebalance Shiro since forever but they kept pushing it away in favour of cheap and easy "balances" like increasing Energy costs and picking apart skill functionality, but then failing to rebalance the Energy cost after.
 

Example: Phase Traversal 

It was actually fairly balanced once they slapped away the 25% bonus damage but at the same time Rev was still powerful because Incensed Response has not yet been nerfed. 

Then even after Incensed was nerfed, they increased its cooldown to 12s. 7 whole seconds up from the 5s original cooldown ontop of the skill costing 35 energy already, which is 1/3 of your Energy or more than half of a fresh swap. Combined with the nerf to Charged Mists, simply using ANYTHING of Shiro's kit is a massive drain. 

I think it's high time Core Legends were all looked at and rebalanced, because Anet's balance team has totally stripped apart all of what makes Rev originally unique, turning them into basic cooldown based classes with an additional Energy mechanic to gate them. 

Shiro is fine and works perfectly the way it is other than IO. Everything is a drain because that's how Revenant works, not just "Shiro". All you mention is Shiro while completely ignoring everything else that takes just as much. The profession is already unique and wanting to shoehorn the idea that Revenant is not supposed to have cooldowns while using skills back and forth constantly at all is not going work.

 

Anet did a good job of nerfing Riposting Shadows and so the same for Phase Traversal, it's time to fix Deathstrike back to it's initial speed as well. Energy fits in perfectly and demands the player to make proper decisions rather than always having the best option in reach without a legend swap, you don't have an excess like Herald over there which has constantly too much Energy which strays so far away from what Revenant truly is, seeing the Energy completely maxed out is embarassing.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Shao.7236