delete thief

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

9 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Core necro is stronger than scourge. The MAT meta has been 2 core necros for months now.

Hmm. I don't take PvP that seriously (or seriously at all really). Though I think I've heard a quite a bit about that. People have been debating Condi builds and class stacking for a long time. Though Necro stacking does seem to have become popular recently. I don't generally play condi builds though, so I can't speak to that. 

 

 

[Math.5123]

4 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

Hmm. I don't take PvP that seriously (or seriously at all really). Though I think I've heard a quite a bit about that. People have been debating Condi builds and class stacking for a long time. Though Necro stacking does seem to have become popular recently. I don't generally play condi builds though, so I can't speak to that. 

 

 

Actual question. If you don't take pvp seriously and you've "heard a bit" about necros being oppressive while not having any first hand experience. Do you really feel you're qualified to partake in balance discussions? 

This is a serious question and I'm not trying to undermine you.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

6 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Actual question. If you don't take pvp seriously and you've "heard a bit" about necros being oppressive while not having any first hand experience. Do you really feel you're qualified to partake in balance discussions? 

This is a serious question and I'm not trying to undermine you.

And why does this question merit asking in a thread about Thief? I'd also like to know who gets to decide who is and isn't qualified to partake in balance discussions. Because if we arbitrarily start deciding who can or can't have opinions on balance, this entire board would be like, a single page long.

Edit: I also "don't take pvp seriously" because I run my own builds and play for fun, rather than copy-paste meta builds from snowcrows or metabattle, just to win.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047

[Math.5123]

Just now, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

And why does this question merit asking in a thread about Thief? I'd also like to know who gets to decide who is and isn't qualified to partake in balance discussions. Because if we arbitrarily start deciding who can or can't have opinions on balance, this entire board would be like, a single page long.

I would, broadly speaking; saying that people that are at least semi high rated with an understanding of how the game works are qualified. 

And it merits asking because your two previous posts show a clear lack of either engagement or understanding of the current meta and outliers.

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

3 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

I would, broadly speaking; saying that people that are at least semi high rated with an understanding of how the game works are qualified. 

And it merits asking because your two previous posts show a clear lack of either engagement or understanding of the current meta and outliers.

So  to summarize;

In a thread about thief, because I don't know as much about necromancer as I apparently should, I shouldn't have or voice an opinion about thief? 

😕

Edited January 29, 2022 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047

[Math.5123]

1 minute ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

So  to summarize;

In a thread about thief, because I don't know as much about necromancer as I apparently should, I shouldn't have or voice an opinion about thief? 

😕

You have to think of the intra-class dynamics of the game. If you nerf, say core guard. This would be an enormous nerf to necro as they would get ping ponged to death and would probably end the double necro meta.

 

Buffing thief would nerf mesmer and generally other sidenoders and revs.

Nerfing necro would buff both renegade and herald to a spot where we probably don't want them. 

 

So I guess this answers your question. 

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

Just now, Math.5123 said:

You have to think of the intra-class dynamics of the game. If you nerf, say core guard. This would be an enormous nerf to necro as they would get ping ponged to death and would probably end the double necro meta.

 

Buffing thief would nerf mesmer and generally other sidenoders and revs.

Nerfing necro would buff both renegade and herald to a spot where we probably don't want them. 

 

So I guess this answers your question. 

But this isn't about Necromancer, or Mesmer, or any other class. This thread is specifically about Thief. And I haven't called for buffing thief, but against arbitrarily Smiter's Booning the entire Shadow Arts traitline. Though Acrobatics could use a little love.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

I would say to not delete teef. Thief is very balanced now. Big difference between skillful and not skillful player, best class to master and deep in its gameplay. High risk high reward class and if we compared to necro which is low risk high reward we can all understand what needs deletion. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

33 minutes ago, Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 said:

But this isn't about Necromancer, or Mesmer, or any other class. This thread is specifically about Thief. And I haven't called for buffing thief, but against arbitrarily Smiter's Booning the entire Shadow Arts traitline. Though Acrobatics could use a little love.

You said you dont take pvp seriously, so i assume that means you dont follow the meta of ATs and ranked. That kind of suggests that you dont really understand why certain builds are meta. So it seems kind of odd that you would defend SA thief without really knowing why its so strong.

[Myror.7521]

@Sven Poizon XD.5268 If its not low risk to not get puished for a not dodged cc then yes. But acutally there is no real counter play to thief (aside of high aoe damage).

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

If it's broken beyond fixes, then yes, I want that class/elite spec/whatever to be removed from the game entirely and remade from scratch.
The balance of the game should be something that everyone should strive for, yet what we mostly see is people defending the most broken things in the game for their own merits, in this case busted stealth on a class with highest possible mobility in the entire game.

Quote

It's actually amazing how you just stretched out "giv buffs for nerfz sadof artz!". Teef doesn't need any compensations for nerfing clearly broken and unbalanced mechanics, get real. It has so many tools outside of shadow arts, yet people willingly choose it because it's the most cheesy one allowing for kitten load of mistakes. Evade teef will be also busted, but to a tiny lesser extent than stealth lover.

At least you have the cajónes to admit this is what you want, instead of hiding behind "thief should be fair its only this one thing 😇" like everyone else.

I like that. I respect that. Wear it on your chest if you believe it. 

I also assure you that the moment you step onto thief and see firsthand the road it takes to get to anywhere approaching "annoying" by another player that has fought thieves before, you will probably cease having that opinion. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

22 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

At least you have the cajónes to admit this is what you want, instead of hiding behind "thief should be fair its only this one thing 😇" like everyone else.

I like that. I respect that. Wear it on your chest if you believe it. 

I also assure you that the moment you step onto thief and see firsthand the road it takes to get to anywhere approaching "annoying" by another player that has fought thieves before, you will probably cease having that opinion. 

I don't get it? I'm not snowflake enough to understand it.
I mean, if it's something beyond any kind of fixes it should be replaced, it's kinda logical? If your car windshield gets smashed you just don't put band-aid over it and continue driving like nothing happened, right? You replace it. Same goes for broken mechanics in the game, if it can't be properly fixed/balanced, it should be removed and reworked/replaced.

It would take me few hours at most to become annoyance to other players on teef, that class is not rocket science to use and never was.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 hour ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I don't get it? I'm not snowflake enough to understand it.
I mean, if it's something beyond any kind of fixes it should be replaced, it's kinda logical? If your car windshield gets smashed you just don't put band-aid over it and continue driving like nothing happened, right? You replace it. Same goes for broken mechanics in the game, if it can't be properly fixed/balanced, it should be removed and reworked/replaced.

The mechanics aren't broken, though I am not arguing that. Shadow Arts thieves are the result of a thief that cannot do damage, take damage, or occupy a node being thrust into a bunker meta. They have no other capacity in which to impactfully affect the game other than inconveniencing a class that has fully committed to that bunker meta by making sure they have to babysit home. That traitline, and thief as a whole have lots of room to play around if you're not a warrior main. And if you -are- a warrior main, that interaction you have with thief is not due to thief being too strong, but warrior being incredibly weak post patch. 

Quote

It would take me few hours at most to become annoyance to other players on teef, that class is not rocket science to use and never was.

And this is why it's so difficult for you to understand why there's so much pushback on you arguing to rework Thief/Shadow Arts entirely. Not that the class is "not rocket science", but the fact that these arguments come from people who haven't even set foot on the class in any capacity, and don't fully understand how the class works or what stealth looks like on the other end. They stand to lose nothing even if their balance suggestions make the class unviable for play in any capacity, so they have no problem arguing as such.

Go do it. Go make a thief and fight a warrior that has object permanence, let alone classes you counter less. 

 

[cyberzombie.7348]

5 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

But acutally there is no real counter play to thief (aside of high aoe damage).

Sure if we forget all of the tethering skills, revealing traits/utilities, cc lock, weakness,  channeled skill tracking, and pattern recognition exist. The only form of build that doesn't have  any real counters against thief is, staff ele and that's due to the sluggish nature of the weapon.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

17 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I am attaching my post from the "Random Question" Thread here as well just to cover my bases.

 

 I took a look at this video and it seems like the main points of the nerf SA train they're trying to start are for the following (If I am incorrect about the main arguments, please correct me.) :

> The thief, being the most mobile class, should be either glass or a dodge bot. 

> The fact that thief can pressure me at sidenode with decaps so that I have to guess whether the thief is still at sidenode waiting for me to leave or is at mid bullying my team 5v4 is unfair. 

> Shadow arts carries thieves because they are essentially perma stealthed//It is difficult to distinguish between good or bad thieves because shadow arts exists.

>Thief is unfun to fight when it uses shadow arts

>Smokescreen is annoying because it covers thief pressure on the node. 

Let me address these one at a time. 

 

I would be inclined to agree with this, if not for the following:

> Thief has other weapons besides shortbow. Without shortbow, its mobility is significantly lessened.

> Both glass thief and dodge bot thief were attempted in the past, with both playstyles meeting similar levels (or greater levels) of disapproval. D/P , Staff, Sword Pistol and Acrobatics as a whole were nerfed because of this. If you want one of the above instead of the stealth spam, fine; but both of those are arguably less counterable and will also generate whine and you will have to either rework or buff the articles above to facilitate that playstyle. Mighty touched on the fact that "sure you could throw a ranger at it, but it doesn't provide team value". To which I say: Okay? working as intended. There are options out there for people to nuke thieves whether they are stealthed or not, but people want to be able to do both that -and- teamfight with no loss, while lamenting thieves minding their business decapping/+1ing. Take a step back and think about what you're asking for. If I'm not sane in my reasoning here, please correct me.

Further, if you feel thieves should be either glass or a dodge bot [explicitly because of shortbow] Then the weapon sets and dual skills that make thief less mobile should get more mitigation. That way thieves trying other weapon sets don't get shafted in this never-ending crusade to balance around shortbow mobility. 
 

Isn't this the whole point of the kitten class? It feels like people are upset that they're getting mindgamed. That tension about whether you should make a call for whether thief is still around or back at mid is part of the result of a good thief presence on sidenode. If you guess right, the thief is wasting time doing nothing. If you guess wrong, -you- are wasting time doing nothing. If you want something different, see above.

Also what thief just silently hangs around node without providing some kind of visual or audio indication in full stealth? You can hear when black powder gets dropped, you can see smokescreen dropped for linking. If a thief is silently hanging around at sidenode for long enough that you need to gamble on whether the thief is there or not, the thief is likely hanging out in some corner you cant see, and nerfing SA wont even fix that interaction. I respect Helseth's ability on mesmer, but I don't understand the rationale here.

I am inclined to agree that shadow arts does carry players that would probably crash and burn on another traitline. I also don't particularly enjoy the dipping in and out of stealth playstyle, but I have also watched these forums systematically argue for the nerfing of s/d, acro. D/P, S/P, Staff, Deadly Arts, vigor in general, shortbow, P/D, and possibly every iteration of condi thief. The thieves have to play something, something has to work. Because if the thieves can't play anything that core necro bunker meta everyone is enjoying is going to get several times more boring and stagnant with nobody to flip nodes. Itll be just like the ESports sprint we had where the meta was first team to run to the nodes and set up a guardian won. 

As for whether you personally have issue distinguishing between good or bad thieves, I have no reason to argue for or against any action relating to that. Good thieves do their job in conquest. I don't think displaying their caliber should really be a part of their build, that kind of tends to radiate from people that have it anyway.

I'd say this is subjective, but even if it isn't, good. As I mentioned elsewhere, nobody like fighting your sic'em soulbeast/DH/FT Scrapper/ Holo / necro/ insert other class here either. That's no excuse to lobby for butchering of traitlines, people have been pushed to run those because the other options are not serviceable. 

Fair. The radius should be reduced, and perhaps the blind pulse should be reduced as well. I wouldn't mind if this went back to a line. Yes, thieves need the option to have staying power if they trait for it, but that staying power should probably have some counterplay/not occupy the whole node.



Tl'dr: If you wanna nerf shadow arts, fine. Fix the other mitigation traitlines and thief damage in general like you claim you want. 

Great post, Azure. Thanks for your thoughts.

I think a core theme of the objections to thief raised by Helseth/Teapot/Rom in the video is twofold.

A) thief is able to do too much. It is able to decap almost at will, +1 better than almost anything else in the game, and even has several favorable 1v1 matchups (e.g warrior and rev). And it can do all of this while completely dictating the nature of the engagement via it's ability to disappear into stealth whenever it wants. The video argues that thief should essentially have to commit to its engagements and truly have more of a high risk, high reward playstyle rather than just resetting the fight constantly and/or being able to disengage whenever things aren't going their way. It's also important to note that nerfing SA wouldn't remove stealth or anything, just reduce access to it. Thief would still be thief, but it would be more incentivized to double down on damage or utility rather than Perma stealth.

B) currently the only way to effectively counter thief is to have a thief yourself. This is essentially bad for balance. Thief should be a capable roamer with significant side node presence that comes with unique advantages and drawbacks. It should be good at what it does, but it should not be irreplaceable. You should be reasonably able to replace thief with another side noder/roamer, albeit with its own flavor and trade-offs. Currently, thief is a lock on 20% of a conquest team comp (in high level AT play, at least) in a game where it is 11% of the professions. (This same troubling dynamic is seen with other irreplaceable classes like Necro and guard, too, btw, but they aren't the topic of this thread). The video opines that reducing thief's access to stealth will break open the meta more and allow other side noders/roamers to see more play--which would be a very, very good thing.

Edited January 29, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364
Formatting

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

13 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Great post, Azure. Thanks for your thoughts.

I think a core theme of the objections to thief raised by Helseth/Teapot/Rom in the video is twofold.

A) thief is able to do too much. It is able to decap almost at will, +1 better than almost anything else in the game, and even has several favorable 1v1 matchups (e.g warrior and rev). And it can do all of this while completely dictating the nature of the engagement via it's ability to disappear into stealth whenever it wants. The video argues that thief should essentially have to commit to its engagements and truly have more of a high risk, high reward playstyle rather than just resetting the fight constantly and/or being able to disengage whenever things aren't going their way. It's also important to note that nerfing SA wouldn't remove stealth or anything, just reduce access to it. Thief would still be thief, but it would be more incentivized to double down on damage or utility rather than Perma stealth.

B) currently the only way to effectively counter thief is to have a thief yourself. This is essentially bad for balance. Thief should be a capable roamer with significant side node presence that comes with unique advantages and drawbacks. It should be good at what it does, but it should not be irreplaceable. You should be reasonably able to replace thief with another side noder/roamer, albeit with its own flavor and trade-offs. Currently, thief is a lock on 20% of a conquest team comp (in high level AT play, at least) in a game where it is 11% of the professions. (This same troubling dynamic is seen with other irreplaceable classes like Necro and guard, too, btw, but they aren't the topic of this thread). The video opines that reducing thief's access to stealth will break open the meta more and allow other side noders/roamers to see more play--which would be a very, very good thing.

I responded to this in [Random question], adding it here for base covering again. Wherever you respond I'll just continue there, to prevent annoyance of Forum mods. 
 

Quote

has several favorable 1v1 matchups (e.g warrior and rev).

 

Warrior being a favorable matchup is due to warrior being hotdog water at the moment. That problem is standalone and needs to be resolved. Do thieves have a favorable matchup against rev? I don't think that's the case anymore.

Quote

 thief is able to do too much. It is able to decap almost at will, +1 better than almost anything else in the game-

Decapping and +1 is all the thief can do. That is the entirety of its role in conquest, and outside of that it has no utility. If people think that is too much,  then I need to hear suggestions for allowing thief to do teamfight/bruiser/glass/sidenode instead, in exchange for the stealth nerf. Otherwise it just comes off as punishing thieves for doing their job.

Quote

The video argues that thief should essentially have to commit to its engagements and truly have more of a high risk, high reward playstyle rather than just resetting the fight constantly and/or being able to disengage whenever things aren't going their way. It's also important to note that nerfing SA wouldn't remove stealth or anything, just reduce access to it. Thief would still be thief, but it would be more incentivized to double down on damage or utility rather than Perma stealth.

 The core premise of this is fine and I can agree to it. Committing to engagements, sure. High risk, high reward, sure. Let's talk about some of the nuance here that gets ignored though; namely, that:

-> Nerfing stealth will not fix "resetting the fight constantly/being able to disengage whenever things aren't going their way"

Those things are due in large part to shadowstep, shortbow, and pistol offhand. None of those things get affected in any meaningful way by having SA nerfed. 
I'd argue, in fact that nerfing SA will have the opposite effect and force people into D/P shortbow (again), by removing fringe builds that rely on SA to hold them together (like it did the last time).  

-> Nerfing SA further is both impractical and will not stop people from using it. I will elaborate on this further below, with the assistance of a quote from @Ashgar.3024.

Quote

B) currently the only way to effectively counter thief is to have a thief yourself. This is essentially bad for balance. Thief should be a capable roamer with significant side node presence that comes with unique advantages and drawbacks. It should be good at what it does, but it should not be irreplaceable.

Then other classes need to have options to give up staying power and damage for mobility and +1. I am in agreement that thief should not be irreplaceable on a team, but the way it's being argued implies that thief will not have a viable place at all. I'll elaborate below.

Quote

You should be reasonably able to replace thief with another side noder/roamer, albeit with its own flavor and trade-offs. Currently, thief is a lock on 20% of a conquest team comp (in high level AT play, at least) in a game where it is 11% of the professions. (This same troubling dynamic is seen with other irreplaceable classes like Necro and guard, too, btw, but they aren't the topic of this thread). The video opines that reducing thief's access to stealth will break open the meta more and allow other side noders/roamers to see more play--which would be a very, very good thing.

I argue the opposite. See @Ashgar.3024's post. 

Quote

You have it completely backwards. SA is a response to the current meta, not the other way around. In pretty much every meta i can think of since i play this game (started 5 years ago or so) running SA in SPvP was considered a meme and honestly still kinda is as far as regular soloq gameplay is concerned.

 

So what changed? Damage got overall neutered across the board on top of pretty much every builds Thieves ever had to pressure bunkers.

I agree with the nature of that argument, namely that: 

>thief should be interchangable with other classes rolewise.

>the meta should see some more variance.

but nerfing SA isn't the answer to both of those problems. Nerfing thief stealth in an effort to attain that isn't going to break open the meta more, as it currently stands. It's going to allow people to slot a 5th necro and nobody will move from node.  

As stated above, Damage got removed and thief cannot sidenode on its own, so it stands to reason that they'd lean into decap/+1 like everyone has been insisting they do. 

SA is STILL a meme. We used to actively shame thieves who ran SA, because it meant they were giving up time they could be standing on the node to contest it. That interaction has not changed, but they cannot push bunkers off node on their own, so now they're doing their job by exploiting the weakness of the bunkers theyd otherwise be unable to move - by  wasting their time making them guess where the thief is between home node and mid. 

If people want what they claim - that thief should be replaceable/there should be more options, then they should:

* buff thief mitigation/damage output on the variants that don't take shortbow:
* Allow thief an option to build as a damage dealer/teamfighter/support in exchange for that mobility
*Allow other classes to build as mobility in exchange for damage/staying power. 

All of which seem to be en route for EoD. 

[Sorry in advance if these threads get merged] 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Sylvia.4870]

On 1/18/2022 at 8:09 AM, noiwk.2760 said:

delete thief please !
or delete stealth .. 

    Is the Thief profession that much powerful? Why are there few players picking it up as the main, favorite profession in the game? Is stealth so scary while there are AOE damage skills, Revealed status from certain skills of specific professions', a useful tool from World versus World gamemode? There are things more frightening and worse than stealth. Play it long enough and you will see what I mean.

[Crab Fear.1624]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Great post, Azure. Thanks for your thoughts.

I think a core theme of the objections to thief raised by Helseth/Teapot/Rom in the video is twofold.

A) thief is able to do too much. It is able to decap almost at will, +1 better than almost anything else in the game, and even has several favorable 1v1 matchups (e.g warrior and rev). And it can do all of this while completely dictating the nature of the engagement via it's ability to disappear into stealth whenever it wants. The video argues that thief should essentially have to commit to its engagements and truly have more of a high risk, high reward playstyle rather than just resetting the fight constantly and/or being able to disengage whenever things aren't going their way. It's also important to note that nerfing SA wouldn't remove stealth or anything, just reduce access to it. Thief would still be thief, but it would be more incentivized to double down on damage or utility rather than Perma stealth.

B) currently the only way to effectively counter thief is to have a thief yourself. This is essentially bad for balance. Thief should be a capable roamer with significant side node presence that comes with unique advantages and drawbacks. It should be good at what it does, but it should not be irreplaceable. You should be reasonably able to replace thief with another side noder/roamer, albeit with its own flavor and trade-offs. Currently, thief is a lock on 20% of a conquest team comp (in high level AT play, at least) in a game where it is 11% of the professions. (This same troubling dynamic is seen with other irreplaceable classes like Necro and guard, too, btw, but they aren't the topic of this thread). The video opines that reducing thief's access to stealth will break open the meta more and allow other side noders/roamers to see more play--which would be a very, very good thing.

Thief was nerfed to be a decapper, they took away the tools to duel, and barely left the ones to decap.

But decap at will is mostly untrue today as any side noder can keep us away, and most roamers can chase us down, and the ones that can chase us down, are very unfavorable matchups.

You can counter a thief with any duelist/roamer.

---

1 hour ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

Sure if we forget all of the tethering skills, revealing traits/utilities, cc lock, weakness,  channeled skill tracking, and pattern recognition exist. The only form of build that doesn't have  any real counters against thief is, staff ele and that's due to the sluggish nature of the weapon.

More truth here than most of the anti-thief posts

---

3 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I don't get it? I'm not snowflake enough to understand it.
I mean, if it's something beyond any kind of fixes it should be replaced, it's kinda logical? If your car windshield gets smashed you just don't put band-aid over it and continue driving like nothing happened, right? You replace it. Same goes for broken mechanics in the game, if it can't be properly fixed/balanced, it should be removed and reworked/replaced.

It would take me few hours at most to become annoyance to other players on teef, that class is not rocket science to use and never was.

Thief is balanced by it's skill floor.

Most can not use it to the potential you imagine yourself capable of, but please go in game and get yourself farmed by the "annoying pro thieves" that seem to be ever prevalent.

---

No nerf comes without more nerfs to others, that is to be sure, but if you are in the thief food chain heirachy and you are above it, this will hurt you as it brings nerfs you don't want, and will likely put more predators into your own food chain.

 

Imagine if they remove stealth and compensated thief with something to make up for it, you call that Revenant.

 

If they delete thief, we will just move over and main that, and guess who is gonna be here on the forum chopping block next.

 

Realistically, if I was guessing they are going to probably nuke shadow arts and smokescreen, or change them for thief.

Necro will get a damage reduction nerf.

Weaver will get a might and barrier nerf.

Warrior will get nerfed.

Ranger will get another druid nerf.

Mesmer will get blurred inscription nerf.

Guardian will get probably nothing but soldier runes removed.

I don't think anyone else will get touched.

[Sylvia.4870]

2 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Thief was nerfed to be a decapper, they took away the tools to duel, and barely left the ones to decap.

But decap at will is mostly untrue today as any side noder can keep us away, and most roamers can chase us down, and the ones that can chase us down, are very unfavorable matchups.

You can counter a thief with any duelist/roamer.

---

More truth here than most of the anti-thief posts

---

Thief is balanced by it's skill floor.

Most can not use it to the potential you imagine yourself capable of, but please go in game and get yourself farmed by the "annoying pro thieves" that seem to be ever prevalent.

---

No nerf comes without more nerfs to others, that is to be sure, but if you are in the thief food chain heirachy and you are above it, this will hurt you as it brings nerfs you don't want, and will likely put more predators into your own food chain.

 

Imagine if they remove stealth and compensated thief with something to make up for it, you call that Revenant.

 

If they delete thief, we will just move over and main that, and guess who is gonna be here on the forum chopping block next.

 

Realistically, if I was guessing they are going to probably nuke shadow arts and smokescreen, or change them for thief.

Necro will get a damage reduction nerf.

Weaver will get a might and barrier nerf.

Warrior will get nerfed.

Ranger will get another druid nerf.

Mesmer will get blurred inscription nerf.

Guardian will get probably nothing but soldier runes removed.

I don't think anyone else will get touched.

    It seems Anti-Thief players are never satisfied enough and never will be until its complete disappearance from the game, I suppose.

[Ashgar.3024]

52 minutes ago, Sylvia.4870 said:

    It seems Anti-Thief players are never satisfied enough and never will be until its complete disappearance from the game, I suppose.

 

I mean same crap in every game that has a "playmaker" character really. WoW Rogues, Tracer/Genji in OW, Zed/Akali/Rengar/KZ in League and so on and so forth.

 

Which is why game devs don't really look a feedback from forums anymore. People are biased and get upset if characters they don't enjoy get feel good moments.

 

What i was trying to showcase with my other thread really. People will whine endlessly about Thief or any character in the same design space but ask them to play it themselves and they'll find a million excuses why they don't... most likely because they tried them out of frustration at some point but were quickly made to realize they take a decent amount of practice to master.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

48 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

What i was trying to showcase with my other thread really. People will whine endlessly about Thief or any character in the same design space but ask them to play it themselves and they'll find a million excuses why they don't... most likely because they tried them out of frustration at some point but were quickly made to realize they take a decent amount of practice to master.

Funny how all the people claiming "thief is only strong if you master it" arent even really good thieves. SA carries average thieves and makes them think they are good.

[Ashgar.3024]

59 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Funny how all the people claiming "thief is only strong if you master it" arent even really good thieves. SA carries average thieves and makes them think they are good.

Good thing i don't run SA. Doesn't match with my playstyle at all, i came here from being a Jungler in LoL. Roaming and ganking is what i enjoy.

I don't think i'm any good at all, i'm just a mid-tier (usually hover between Gold 3 and Plat 1, sometimes lower if i try to make some meme thing work like Deadeye) fairly casual player (i don't even remember the last time i met the seasonal "cutoff" for numbers of games played to be eligible for a title).

But all of this is besides my argument, which is that according to these forums Thief warrants 5-6 whining threads while they aren't nearly as played as most of the other meta builds.

Why are people not spam queueing on Thief then?

Why is a significant portion of the ladder running around on Core Necro and and various flavors of Guardian?

Why aren't you seeing 2 thieves every single game?

Edited January 30, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[cyberzombie.7348]

7 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

SA carries average thieves and makes them think they are good.

True, my philosophy has always been 'there's mastering a build, and then there's mastering a class.'

[anjo.6143]

On 1/23/2022 at 3:13 PM, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

I mean, he thinks that if he doeasnt win in 10s he lost, what an entitlement lol

U Cleary dont understand conquest mode

[anjo.6143]

10 hours ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Good thing i don't run SA. Doesn't match with my playstyle at all, i came here from being a Jungler in LoL. Roaming and ganking is what i enjoy.

I don't think i'm any good at all, i'm just a mid-tier (usually hover between Gold 3 and Plat 1, sometimes lower if i try to make some meme thing work like Deadeye) fairly casual player (i don't even remember the last time i met the seasonal "cutoff" for numbers of games played to be eligible for a title).

But all of this is besides my argument, which is that according to these forums Thief warrants 5-6 whining threads while they aren't nearly as played as most of the other meta builds.

Why are people not spam queueing on Thief then?

Why is a significant portion of the ladder running around on Core Necro and and various flavors of Guardian?

Why aren't you seeing 2 thieves every single game?

 

U said u like roaming and ganking as jungler at lol and at same time SA doesnt fit on ur playstyle... Just... Huh? Lmao