GW2 PvP scene is dead because EVERY class can Tank/Heal/CC/DPS, it's ZERO skill gameplay.

[Genesis.5169]

2 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

Sorry but people need to understand we exist in 2022 and not in 2002.

 

Twitch and YouTube are the biggest metrics to determine user interest because Arenanet/Big studios do not reveal player statistics anymore, so for the most part when we see a genuine interest that isn't forced by a corporation then it would appear to a majority of other people that this might be worth something to check out.

 

Does this mean games like GW2 that fall below a certain view count is dead? Yes. It does, it means no one is actively streaming or creating content which means the community is stale and only exists within the confines of a subreddit or a forum like this which is again not a lot of people aka Dead.

 

What does a Dead community look like? Take GW2 for example, you have no one wanting to invest their time and money into making guides or tutorials or even general content because there's zero return for them due to low playerbase/viewership. This is a ripple effect because now new players only rely on very old content/guides that might not be current meta and if the meta is same as past 8 months to now, then it gives even more of the impression that the game is on maintenance mode which is currently the reality of why we're in this current meta to begin with.

 

I get that you like GW2, you probably invested a lot of time into it and it seems like a new comer like me just coming in and ruining the fun but this is reality.

 

There might not be more new comers after me if everyone is told to stop talking or posting if it's doesn't fit a specific narrative that makes the white knights happy. 

Trust me nobody here is white knighting gw2 pvp you should really read the forum history. Your opinions are just wrong, it's really that simple. The notion everyone can do everything is false. The notion we need a big streaming presence to be a good game is also wrong plenty of big games do not have big streaming presence and bad game can get large stream presence due to just internet hype this is not a good metric.

Now you said the meta is stale and i agree. But has nothing to do with people being able to do everything at all pvp in terms of content has regressed since pof they reversed the powercreep as requested. If your arguing we need more content creators that has nothing to do with gw2 and anet has no control over people having the willto be content creators.

Too many points are just plain wrong man. The little truth you speak of about the meta being stale is true but the rest you tie to it makes no sense and we should just wait on EoD.
 

[Gobcrack.9320]

3 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

The notion everyone can do everything is false.

 

Literally every class has means of tank, CC and heal. People who are dimwitted take it literally and run with it, no i'm not talking about only tank rogue and no i'm not talkin about a only heal rogue lmao that's just missing my point completely for the sake of proving your own argument.

 

The idea that the game is balanced around everyone having everything failed, it not only failed hard it serves as an example for what happens when you try to reinvent something that doesn't need to be touched.

 

In actual games with paid $$$ competition and viewership you don't have classes that are meant for DPS who can also heal or tank or even have ANY of those abilities without also losing out on DPS and other stats, the fact that you can just roll a single toon to do the job of 5 other roles while simultaneously trying to cling onto a class fantasy is delusional and the lack of player interest in PvP shows that it 100% failed.

 

8 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

The notion we need a big streaming presence to be a good game is also wrong plenty of big games do not have big streaming presence and bad game can get large stream presence due to just internet hype this is not a good metric.

 

Sorry that you don't believe in numbers, but most people do and numbers rarely lie.

 

If your game isn't charting on both Twitch nor YouTube then your game has failed to meet the hype needed for people to want to invest their time and money into it.

 

You can choose to not believe that, but in 2022 this is the new metric moving forward for most if not all gamers that pay attention to the gaming scene.

 

14 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Too many points are just plain wrong man. The little truth you speak of about the meta being stale is true but the rest you tie to it makes no sense and we should just wait on EoD.

 

We can agree to disagree, ton of people agree with me and the people who disagree with me have not received the amount of support i've gotten so clearly there's more truth to what i'm saying than falsehoods.

 

If anything, you can wait until EoD to find out what's gonna happen but I think most people are already skipping EoD and waiting to see if it changes anything before putting time back into GW2 considering how many times they've been burned by ANet's poor decision making. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Swagg.9236]

On 1/23/2022 at 11:44 AM, Gobcrack.9320 said:

Despite what people's opinions are about WoW PvP, the raw statistical data shows that WoW PvP is the most watched MMO PvP in the entire genre. 

 

It has Blizzard + 3rd party tournament support, pro player scene and a thriving content creator community which is why people often regard it as the best MMO in general and why it's been #1 for over a decade.

 

GW2 on the other hand went the opposite direction of WoW in terms of gameplay and decided to make it so that EVERY SINGLE CLASS class can Heal, Tank, CC AND DPS and now we have gameplay that feels incredibly spammy and everyone is now bunker classes with DPS which slows down gameplay A LOT and makes it super boring to watch/play.

 

Like just take a look at Necro for example, this class can be played at Core level and it can not only DPS and burst someone down incredibly fast but it has multiple HP bars via Shroud/Lich and on top of that it even has innate Healing, it can also CC incredibly well with fears.

 

This is a CORE class that not only BURST, it can BUNKER, it can also HEAL AND it can CC.

 

People in this community can't find anything wrong with this because guess what, Guardian can do this too. Most classes can do what they can do, so the meta becomes less about creativity and skill based gameplay and more so finding out which class can do the 5 different things faster and easier because at that point you'd be at a disadvantage NOT running it. 

 

People also love saying "You can play off meta", and that's fine because they're right but it has nothing to do with my point.

 

You can play off meta, you can play on meta, it doesn't matter. The gameplay itself is ruined by the fact that every class can do everything, it's lazy gameplay and it takes away role identity which further puts off a majority of gamers evident by the lack of people's interest in any GW2 PvP content.

 

The problem with campaigning to increase the overall skill ceiling of GW2 is that you have to be honest about how shallow it is; and when you are honest about how shallow GW2 is, you'll only get a massive amount of push-back because the average GW2 PvP'er has THE absolute most fragile ego that exists in video games.  The people who take this game seriously are not only few in number, but they are extremely loud and extremely insular.  It's tragic, but you're probably not going to break the walls of the echochamber.

[Gobcrack.9320]

24 minutes ago, Swagg.9236 said:

The problem with campaigning to increase the overall skill ceiling of GW2 is that you have to be honest about how shallow it is; and when you are honest about how shallow GW2 is, you'll only get a massive amount of push-back because the average GW2 PvP'er has THE absolute most fragile ego that exists in video games. 

 

This is incredibly real, I witness it live on these forums and just reading all the dismissive replies from these people. It's so out of touch with reality, yet they cling onto it like there's nothing else. Well said 👏

[Mik.3401]

On 1/23/2022 at 7:02 PM, Markri.9475 said:

Not sure I understand your meaning of "SKILL".

If everyone has every tool available; then is not the only thing that differ between players their Skill?

I think that’s debatable given the compo/build chosen. Of course most skilled players know exactly what counters what so their re-rolling before match makes a win more attainable.

But at the end of the day certain low-skill builds just outperform the high-skill ones in pressing situations for an average player. It is not recommended to play glassy builds if you solo queue for instance.

So in a way the game does not reward investing in complex rotation builds and favours builds which are kind of simplistic. Like for example carrion amulet and condi-tank builds. Of course this does not hold on super high ranks anymore where power is the meta atm. So in such setting skill matters because power builds require skill. But at average/low ranks? Hell no skill has nothing to offer there.

 

 

[Wintermute.5408]

Lol. The high skill of auto-aim pvp games, right.

[Tescao.3042]

35 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

I think that’s debatable given the compo/build chosen. Of course most skilled players know exactly what counters what so their re-rolling before match makes a win more attainable.

But at the end of the day certain low-skill builds just outperform the high-skill ones in pressing situations for an average player. It is not recommended to play glassy builds if you solo queue for instance.

So in a way the game does not reward investing in complex rotation builds and favours builds which are kind of simplistic. Like for example carrion amulet and condi-tank builds. Of course this does not hold on super high ranks anymore where power is the meta atm. So in such setting skill matters because power builds require skill. But at average/low ranks? Hell no skill has nothing to offer there.

 

 

Kills through CC is what makes PvP different from PvE. CC kills can be so difficult and confusing that meta builds make it much easier and therefore more efficient. You need to understand the nature of the word Meta, it borders very strongly on the word fashion.

Edited January 26, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[kharmin.7683]

17 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

Sorry that you don't believe in numbers, but most people do and numbers rarely lie.

 

If your game isn't charting on both Twitch nor YouTube then your game has failed to meet the hype needed for people to want to invest their time and money into it.

 

You can choose to not believe that, but in 2022 this is the new metric moving forward for most if not all gamers that pay attention to the gaming scene.

 

What??  You have offered exactly zero evidence to support these claims.

And as failing to meet hype needed for people to invest their time and money into GW2, I would think that their 9 years running would counter that argument.  Plenty of players are investing in GW2 -- certainly enough to satisfy Anet's investors.

[Hotride.2187]

20 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

Sorry but people need to understand we exist in 2022 and not in 2002.

Popular game -> good game. Ooooooook.

I'll keep playing and watching games that are great but not popular, you stick to the popular ones 🙂

[Genesis.5169]

12 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

The problem with campaigning to increase the overall skill ceiling of GW2 is that you have to be honest about how shallow it is; and when you are honest about how shallow GW2 is, you'll only get a massive amount of push-back because the average GW2 PvP'er has THE absolute most fragile ego that exists in video games.  The people who take this game seriously are not only few in number, but they are extremely loud and extremely insular.  It's tragic, but you're probably not going to break the walls of the echochamber.

Lol you think gw2 is shallow.
Okay question.
What do you consider deep?
FF14?
Darksouls?
Civilization?

15 Buttons in rotation already a larger number then any other MMO i know of please share where we are shallow so i can understand where your coming from because i know of no other pvp game that is as difficult to play outside of black desert and they are far more bursty there then here.

Unless your talking from the perspective of pve in which case your right but every mmos pve mod is shallow its pve.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Genesis.5169

[Mik.3401]

1 hour ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

Kills through CC is what makes PvP different from PvE. CC kills can be so difficult and confusing that meta builds make it much easier and therefore more efficient. You need to understand the nature of the word Meta, it borders very strongly on the word fashion.

I’m not disagreeing with you on that aspect though

[Crab Fear.1624]

Fire weaver?

[Tescao.3042]

10 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

I’m not disagreeing with you on that aspect though

I understand where you disagree, but I didn't say anything about the individual's personal skills.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

18 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

Literally every class has means of tank, CC and heal. People who are dimwitted take it literally and run with it, no i'm not talking about only tank rogue and no i'm not talkin about a only heal rogue lmao that's just missing my point completely for the sake of proving your own argument.

 

The idea that the game is balanced around everyone having everything failed, it not only failed hard it serves as an example for what happens when you try to reinvent something that doesn't need to be touched.

 

In actual games with paid $$$ competition and viewership you don't have classes that are meant for DPS who can also heal or tank or even have ANY of those abilities without also losing out on DPS and other stats, the fact that you can just roll a single toon to do the job of 5 other roles while simultaneously trying to cling onto a class fantasy is delusional and the lack of player interest in PvP shows that it 100% failed.

 

 

Sorry that you don't believe in numbers, but most people do and numbers rarely lie.

 

If your game isn't charting on both Twitch nor YouTube then your game has failed to meet the hype needed for people to want to invest their time and money into it.

 

You can choose to not believe that, but in 2022 this is the new metric moving forward for most if not all gamers that pay attention to the gaming scene.

 

 

We can agree to disagree, ton of people agree with me and the people who disagree with me have not received the amount of support i've gotten so clearly there's more truth to what i'm saying than falsehoods.

 

If anything, you can wait until EoD to find out what's gonna happen but I think most people are already skipping EoD and waiting to see if it changes anything before putting time back into GW2 considering how many times they've been burned by ANet's poor decision making. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ur statements regarding streaming and such and how they impact a games success in 2021/22 are absolutely correct and to think otherwise is deluding ur self to fit ur own narrative. As a recent example let's look at new world. Amazon studios not only built hype for this game using all the standard platforms but also paid many well known streamers to hype as well as stream content for the game on release, many streamers admitted to the streams being sponsored as they were required to as part of their agreements. New world has amazing graphics and atmosphere, 3 usable weapon skills, animation locking, very very low enemie variety, cut and pasted locations, literally 6 quests on repeat from lv 1-to max until they added the recent pvp quests which are repetitive and so on, a insane amount of bugs and exploits even for a newly released game. The point is had this game not been so hyped from the use of the social platforms ie streamers and such this game would have released being known as one of the worst released mmos ever within days yet it had crazy high player counts on release and for couple months afterwards even tho it's literally the most shallow and bug filled mess of aaaa mmo ever released in history lol.

[lightDestroyer.1265]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:11 AM, grx.8714 said:

The current problem of sPvP are necro, guardians and to some extent weavers too.

Before necro used to be a really high skill cap profession with lot of positioning, LoS, terrain usage.

Right now it can be played even by an armless monkey and reach platinum in soloQ even by a silver player. Too much tankiness and also dps and the strongest condis of all game.

And how it is stupid that a stupid core class can support better than my druid which was born and meant to be a support? Not to mention guardian has at least other 2 viable builds to run, it's stupid. 

Weavers yeah, you just side node and against average players you can 2vs1 without dying for days and even maybe killing almost everything in 1vs1 scenarios, so yeah.

It's the usual stupidity of a poorly balanced game.

 

Dude, weaver was nerfed hard a year ago.  When you have heralds,  holos and thief and u choose to complain abt weaver lol. 

[Swagg.9236]

3 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Lol you think gw2 is shallow.
Okay question.
What do you consider deep?
FF14?
Darksouls?
Civilization?

15 Buttons in rotation already a larger number then any other MMO i know of please share where we are shallow so i can understand where your coming from because i know of no other pvp game that is as difficult to play outside of black desert and they are far more bursty there then here.

Unless your talking from the perspective of pve in which case your right but every mmos pve mod is shallow its pve.

GW2's problems are beyond comparison.  It's a matter of intra-game complexity.  GW2 FEATURES no complexity.  It has the elements present to possibly engineer complex gameplay interactions, but they're all just left to rot and dry out in a code cul-de-sac rather than see any sort of proper universal inclusion and expansion.  During the moments of highest action volume during any given PvP encounter, GW2's content relies most heavily on scripted movement, scripted attacks, and protracted effects with no consistent counters or means of interaction.

If you want an example, fine:

Team Fortress 2 gives a player a whole 3-4 actions to any given class outside of basic movement options, but the universal nature of those movement options combined with nearly every weapon's effectiveness increasing based on the user's proximity to a target create a deceptively massive skill ceiling and, for a beginner, a 90-degree skill curve if you find the right communities to show you how far any player or team can push the game.  THREE TO FOUR ACTIONS yet mind-boggling potential and levels of uncertainty that can still manage to startle players with thousands of hours.  A "skilled" GW2 player can reliably predict the minutia of any PvP game based on pressing F4 and looking at the classes despite the fact that you're looking at 16-30 buttons per player; and it's mainly because there are no universal, interactable mechanics which allow players to gain and manipulate momentum without overly relying on class-locked mechanics.  That's not depth.  That's compartmentalization.  Putting the best skills into boxes and then only letting a few builds or classes use them isn't the way to make a game with a high skill ceiling.  Thanks to that paradigm, GW2 is just... like, 2 rather similar classes copied and pasted across the 9 professions.

GW2 lacks expression.  There is no agency.  There are only the two options and a bunch of "wrong answers" without any justification.  That's why GW2 is shallow.  It is solved.  There is no mystery, and that's probably why it's not popular.

Moreover, does stacking up a massive line of dominoes imply a complex task?  Even if it's a huge number of dominoes to set up, are you really doing anything complicated throughout the task?  A high number of rotation elements doesn't equate to gameplay depth if the elements don't consistently interact in a manner which promotes complexity.  The worst part about these discussions is how it's always a lose-lose battle with most people who continue to defend GW2's lackluster merits.  I'll make a comparison to another game's systems, but people will cry out about how it's invalid to compare two "seemingly incongruent" designs like an MMO or an FPS or an RTS or a 3rd-person, single-player RPG.  Or I'll get a "But that's not how GW2 works!!" sort of response.  I'm frankly sick of listening to your posturing and mudslinging.  You aren't here to promote discussion and raise GW2's skill ceiling; you're here to justify your subjective position so that you can feel good about yourself.

[Ragnar.4257]

17 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

This is incredibly real, I witness it live on these forums and just reading all the dismissive replies from these people. It's so out of touch with reality, yet they cling onto it like there's nothing else. Well said 👏

Oh, get over yourself.

Nobody disagreeing with you is saying that GW2 PvP scene is currently amazingly healthy and perfect. We all know that the player numbers right now are so low that it's more like a glorified Whatsapp group and doesn't justify the first "M" in "MMO". You're not blowing anyones mind by pointing out that twitch numbers are tiny, that's common knowledge.

We're just disagreeing that the SPECIFIC reasons you have identified are the reasons why.

GW2 PvP is a dying patient in emergency care. You're a doctor saying "well, clearly what's killing him is his haircut". I'm not disagreeing that the patient is dying, just that your diagnosis of death-by-haircut is BS, when I can clearly see an axe lodged in his chest. I also have to question if you're a real doctor.

What's killing PvP is not the fact that all classes technically have access to healing & CC & damage, even if in most cases it's only a token access.

What's killing PvP is:

• No meaningful development in more than 6 years
• Zero marketing or promotion or events to bring in new players
• No pathway or progression to draw PvE players into PvP
• Absolute trash matchmaking putting total beginners in with pros
• No training mode or guidance on how Conquest works
• Repeated issues of cheating and perpetrators just getting a slap on the wrist
• Untamed botting
• OP builds running riot for years at a time since balance is so infrequent
• Infrequent balance also meaning stale meta, everyone worked out the optimal comps years ago
• Inadequate monetisation model, creating a vicious cycle with all of the above

These are just SLIGHTLY more important as reasons than mesmer technically being able to heal 20% of it's HP every 30 seconds, which you are hyperbolically describing as "healing".

And the comparison to WoW numbers is asinine. WoW has a much larger PvE population, it's not exactly hard to see why the PvP population would correlate.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Genesis.5169]

1 hour ago, Swagg.9236 said:

GW2's problems are beyond comparison.  It's a matter of intra-game complexity.  GW2 FEATURES no complexity.  It has the elements present to possibly engineer complex gameplay interactions, but they're all just left to rot and dry out in a code cul-de-sac rather than see any sort of proper universal inclusion and expansion.  During the moments of highest action volume during any given PvP encounter, GW2's content relies most heavily on scripted movement, scripted attacks, and protracted effects with no consistent counters or means of interaction.

If you want an example, fine:

Team Fortress 2 gives a player a whole 3-4 actions to any given class outside of basic movement options, but the universal nature of those movement options combined with nearly every weapon's effectiveness increasing based on the user's proximity to a target create a deceptively massive skill ceiling and, for a beginner, a 90-degree skill curve if you find the right communities to show you how far any player or team can push the game.  THREE TO FOUR ACTIONS yet mind-boggling potential and levels of uncertainty that can still manage to startle players with thousands of hours.  A "skilled" GW2 player can reliably predict the minutia of any PvP game based on pressing F4 and looking at the classes despite the fact that you're looking at 16-30 buttons per player; and it's mainly because there are no universal, interactable mechanics which allow players to gain and manipulate momentum without overly relying on class-locked mechanics.  That's not depth.  That's compartmentalization.  Putting the best skills into boxes and then only letting a few builds or classes use them isn't the way to make a game with a high skill ceiling.  Thanks to that paradigm, GW2 is just... like, 2 rather similar classes copied and pasted across the 9 professions.

GW2 lacks expression.  There is no agency.  There are only the two options and a bunch of "wrong answers" without any justification.  That's why GW2 is shallow.  It is solved.  There is no mystery, and that's probably why it's not popular.

Moreover, does stacking up a massive line of dominoes imply a complex task?  Even if it's a huge number of dominoes to set up, are you really doing anything complicated throughout the task?  A high number of rotation elements doesn't equate to gameplay depth if the elements don't consistently interact in a manner which promotes complexity.  The worst part about these discussions is how it's always a lose-lose battle with most people who continue to defend GW2's lackluster merits.  I'll make a comparison to another game's systems, but people will cry out about how it's invalid to compare two "seemingly incongruent" designs like an MMO or an FPS or an RTS or a 3rd-person, single-player RPG.  Or I'll get a "But that's not how GW2 works!!" sort of response.  I'm frankly sick of listening to your posturing and mudslinging.  You aren't here to promote discussion and raise GW2's skill ceiling; you're here to justify your subjective position so that you can feel good about yourself.

So, there is no universe where a shooter is more complex in a mmo because MMOS demand not only more actual knowledge skills,traits, flow of combat, but there are far more buttons to press per minute far more things to look out for and for more options for counter play.
 
Saying gw2 is solved that's fair i can agree with that the meta really hasn't moved for a long time but that has nothing to do with simplicity that has to do with a stagnate meta. And yes the more dominos you have to knock down the more complex it is because very often you miss a piece here and there and that causes a death or a reset of a fight.

Idk what you mean by just two options and a bunch of wrong answers perhaps on classes like mesmer and thief but other classes have far more options to play. We can agree to disagree here but honestly of all the things about gw2 pvp i can say easy is not one of them.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Genesis.5169

[Tescao.3042]

2 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

GW2's problems are beyond comparison.  It's a matter of intra-game complexity.  GW2 FEATURES no complexity.  It has the elements present to possibly engineer complex gameplay interactions, but they're all just left to rot and dry out in a code cul-de-sac rather than see any sort of proper universal inclusion and expansion.  During the moments of highest action volume during any given PvP encounter, GW2's content relies most heavily on scripted movement, scripted attacks, and protracted effects with no consistent counters or means of interaction.

If you want an example, fine:

Team Fortress 2 gives a player a whole 3-4 actions to any given class outside of basic movement options, but the universal nature of those movement options combined with nearly every weapon's effectiveness increasing based on the user's proximity to a target create a deceptively massive skill ceiling and, for a beginner, a 90-degree skill curve if you find the right communities to show you how far any player or team can push the game.  THREE TO FOUR ACTIONS yet mind-boggling potential and levels of uncertainty that can still manage to startle players with thousands of hours.  A "skilled" GW2 player can reliably predict the minutia of any PvP game based on pressing F4 and looking at the classes despite the fact that you're looking at 16-30 buttons per player; and it's mainly because there are no universal, interactable mechanics which allow players to gain and manipulate momentum without overly relying on class-locked mechanics.  That's not depth.  That's compartmentalization.  Putting the best skills into boxes and then only letting a few builds or classes use them isn't the way to make a game with a high skill ceiling.  Thanks to that paradigm, GW2 is just... like, 2 rather similar classes copied and pasted across the 9 professions.

GW2 lacks expression.  There is no agency.  There are only the two options and a bunch of "wrong answers" without any justification.  That's why GW2 is shallow.  It is solved.  There is no mystery, and that's probably why it's not popular.

Moreover, does stacking up a massive line of dominoes imply a complex task?  Even if it's a huge number of dominoes to set up, are you really doing anything complicated throughout the task?  A high number of rotation elements doesn't equate to gameplay depth if the elements don't consistently interact in a manner which promotes complexity.  The worst part about these discussions is how it's always a lose-lose battle with most people who continue to defend GW2's lackluster merits.  I'll make a comparison to another game's systems, but people will cry out about how it's invalid to compare two "seemingly incongruent" designs like an MMO or an FPS or an RTS or a 3rd-person, single-player RPG.  Or I'll get a "But that's not how GW2 works!!" sort of response.  I'm frankly sick of listening to your posturing and mudslinging.  You aren't here to promote discussion and raise GW2's skill ceiling; you're here to justify your subjective position so that you can feel good about yourself.

There is a very deep meaning in this message, which is directly related to the real world. The moment mystery was replaced by stability, we lost the ability and drive to manage momentum. Perhaps this is just the consequences of such a phenomenon as divide and conquer, which has acquired a "deeper meaning", but this is self-deception, because depth does not divide, it unites. Therefore the creator's game is always more elegant. 

Divide and conquer in any case will exhaust itself and shoot, like any spring compressed to the limit.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

17 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Idk what you mean by just two options and a bunch of wrong answers

He’s saying that since most classes play in the same kind of way, it is easier to make an optimization decision and therefor it becomes obvious which thing is the best thing to play, thus there are the “right” things to play and the “wrong” things to play.
 

For example, It’s like if I came up to you and said hey…do you want this suitcase of a million dollars…or do you want  500k. You see I gave you two different options…but it’s too easy to identify which option is clearly better and the “right” choice. Gw2 suffers from this problem of giving you many options, but most of them don’t work to give you actual real options to playing the game.

[Khalisto.5780]

WoW is just top anything of MMO, cuz the glory of a time long gone and a bunch of fans that can't let it go

 

you prolly right about no exciting/understandable to watch part of the issue

 

they can't adress the bunker thing, that is always at least one bunker build that ruins the meta

 

gw2 pvp is dying cuz it got abandoned and devs don't the bare minimum to keep it rolling, which is in my opinion 3 meta shifts an year 

 

so ppl quit, cuz you know, it's not fun face necro + guard for like what, 9-12  months now

Edited January 27, 2022 by Khalisto.5780

[oscuro.9720]

6 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

He’s saying that since most classes play in the same kind of way, it is easier to make an optimization decision and therefor it becomes obvious which thing is the best thing to play, thus there are the “right” things to play and the “wrong” things to play.
 

For example, It’s like if I came up to you and said hey…do you want this suitcase of a million dollars…or do you want  500k. You see I gave you two different options…but it’s too easy to identify which option is clearly better and the “right” choice. Gw2 suffers from this problem of giving you many options, but most of them don’t work to give you actual real options to playing the game.

I don’t think this is the underlying issue though. Certainly it’s not great, but it’s not prohibitive to a healthy pvp environment imo. Let me explain.

The first important point is that there’s never 1 right option, there’s usually 1-3 right options, and 1-3 okay options, followed by a bunch of suboptimal options. It’s by no means a singular choice. This can be expanded to many more options if you are coordinating class layout with your partner, and even more options if coordinating with a whole team (which doesn’t exist anymore). 

This only becomes an acute problem when the same classes are maintained in the same position for a long period of time, as we have had for the last 2+ years. When it’s always the same choices, people will inherently bias towards the choices they prefer. When this is carried out over a long period of time, it’s stale and dull. The interactions are predictable, the game is dull. 

If the meta shifted every 3 months so that at some point every class was on top and every class was at the bottom, the interactions would be much more novel. What counters what will change continuously. The optimal team compositions will be more varied. 

The rate of adaptation will closely mirror the rate of alteration, providing a seemingly endless choice set, since the choice set is changing shortly after a consensus is reached on what the “optimal set” is.

So if there was continuous small number changes monthly with a large enough shift every 3 months to change the meta, the reduced choice layout will become less relevant. 

That’s just my theory. Maybe I’m wrong, idk 🙂 

Edited January 27, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Curennos.9307]

1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I don’t think this is the underlying issue though. Certainly it’s not great, but it’s not prohibitive to a healthy pvp environment imo. Let me explain.

The first important point is that there’s never 1 right option, there’s usually 1-3 right options, and 1-3 okay options, followed by a bunch of suboptimal options. It’s by no means a singular choice. This can be expanded to many more options if you are coordinating class layout with your partner, and even more options if coordinating with a whole team (which doesn’t exist anymore). 

This only becomes an acute problem when the same classes are maintained in the same position for a long period of time, as we have had for the last 2+ years. When it’s always the same choices, people will inherently bias towards the choices they prefer. When this is carried out over a long period of time, it’s stale and dull. The interactions are predictable, the game is dull. 

If the meta shifted every 3 months so that at some point every class was on top and every class was at the bottom, the interactions would be much more novel. What counters what will change continuously. The optimal team compositions will be more varied. 

The rate of adaptation will closely mirror the rate of alteration, providing a seemingly endless choice set, since the choice set is changing shortly after a consensus is reached on what the “optimal set” is.

So if there was continuous small number changes monthly with a large enough shift every 3 months to change the meta, the reduced choice layout will become less relevant. 

That’s just my theory. Maybe I’m wrong, idk 🙂 

Tbh I think you hit this one right on the nose. I've always found the most boring parts of GW2, class/pvp wise, to be far superior to WoW's, and only managed to maintain my interest in WoW because of how they - through either skill or incompetence, and tbh most likely the latter - screwed the meta every so often + made systems every xpac that had the most wild scaling issues imaginable. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

44 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I don’t think this is the underlying issue though. Certainly it’s not great, but it’s not prohibitive to a healthy pvp environment imo. Let me explain.

The first important point is that there’s never 1 right option, there’s usually 1-3 right options, and 1-3 okay options, followed by a bunch of suboptimal options. It’s by no means a singular choice. This can be expanded to many more options if you are coordinating class layout with your partner, and even more options if coordinating with a whole team (which doesn’t exist anymore). 

This only becomes an acute problem when the same classes are maintained in the same position for a long period of time, as we have had for the last 2+ years. When it’s always the same choices, people will inherently bias towards the choices they prefer. When this is carried out over a long period of time, it’s stale and dull. The interactions are predictable, the game is dull. 

If the meta shifted every 3 months so that at some point every class was on top and every class was at the bottom, the interactions would be much more novel. What counters what will change continuously. The optimal team compositions will be more varied. 

The rate of adaptation will closely mirror the rate of alteration, providing a seemingly endless choice set, since the choice set is changing shortly after a consensus is reached on what the “optimal set” is.

So if there was continuous small number changes monthly with a large enough shift every 3 months to change the meta, the reduced choice layout will become less relevant. 

That’s just my theory. Maybe I’m wrong, idk 🙂 

You’re not wrong, in fact that’s exactly how it should work but the process your talking about is supposed to happen naturally, not as an intervention from “the gods” so to speak.
 

I’ve researched for a long time how this process works, and the way that process happens naturally is believe it or not, based on the complexity of the game.

 

I linked a thread earlier where I explain how this process works (basically a thesis curated for Guild Wars 2 derived from physics and biology) but to put it in short: all systems move towards a state of equilibrium. So if you start out in a heterogeneous (diverse) state it eventually collapses to a homogeneous (meta) state. In this way, the process of diversity is dynamic and changes over time entropically. If one wants to prevent the collapse of a system towards a homogeneous state, one needs to increase the complexity of that system, so that the systems entropy death takes a longer period of time.

 

complexity however is special…most assume that when something is complex means that ones requires a lot of elements to be involved in order to get complex behavior…but this isn’t fully true. Recently a computer scientist named Steven Wolfram posited a theorem that: simplicity = complexity by way of a principle called computational equivalence. What that essentially means is that simple systems have the same computational sophistication as complicated ones…and therefor the two concepts are equivalent. It’s easy to see why this is true when you think about Turing Completeness and Computation Universality. Simple games like Game of Life and Minecraft are capable of Turing Complete computation, which means they can simulate all computable systems.

 

In other words, What it all means is that one can device a simple system, that exhibits complex behaviors. The more complex the behavior the longer the system takes to reach equilibrium. Thus, one does not need to make a complicated system to get the complex behaviors we are looking for.

 

There are more details involved that I omitted because it gets abstract and hard to talk about every nuance…which is why I recommend reading the threads I linked earlier which explains things more clearly in an organized fashion. If you are actually interested in learning further about complexity I suggest watching this video.

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You’re not wrong, in fact that’s exactly how it should work but the process your talking about is supposed to happen naturally, not as an intervention from “the gods” so to speak.
 

I’ve researched for a long time how this process works, and the way that process happens naturally is believe it or not, based on the complexity of the game.

 

I linked a thread earlier where I explain how this process works (basically a thesis curated for Guild Wars 2 derived from physics and biology) but to put it in short: all systems move towards a state of equilibrium. So if you start out in a heterogeneous (diverse) state it eventually collapses to a homogeneous (meta) state. In this way, the process of diversity is dynamic and changes over time entropically. If one wants to prevent the collapse of a system towards a homogeneous state, one needs to increase the complexity of that system, so that the systems entropy death takes a longer period of time.

 

complexity however is special…most assume that when something is complex means that ones requires a lot of elements to be involved in order to get complex behavior…but this isn’t fully true. Recently a computer scientist named Steven Wolfram posited a theorem that: simplicity = complexity by way of a principle called computational equivalence. What that essentially means is that simple systems have the same computational sophistication as complicated ones…and therefor the two concepts are equivalent. It’s easy to see why this is true when you think about Turing Completeness and Computation Universality. Simple games like Game of Life and Minecraft are capable of Turing Complete computation, which means they can simulate all computable systems.

 

In other words, What it all means is that one can device a simple system, that exhibits complex behaviors. The more complex the behavior the longer the system takes to reach equilibrium. Thus, one does not need to make a complicated system to get the complex behaviors we are looking for.

 

There are more details involved that I omitted because it gets abstract and hard to talk about every nuance…which is why I recommend reading the threads I linked earlier which explains things more clearly in an organized fashion. If you are actually interested in learning further about complexity I suggest watching this video.

I’m 100% going to watch that video when I get time (I go on the forums on my phone when I’m waiting for things, so not exactly the appropriate time to watch a video on the evolution of systems towards homogeneity 😂). So thank you! 

Now, to the point at hand, I 100% agree with you. In fact, in video games I would argue that simple systems are inherently superior to excessively complex systems due to the nature of a human being limited in their ability to process and respond to the input stimuli with an appropriate output stimuli. Too complex and a game is just tedious button management. 

If we look in GW2, to keep it focused on the present game, functions like dodge would meet the appropriate criteria, correct? It is a very simple mechanic, but can be used in a variety of ways creating a very diverse set of outcomes based on dodge usage. (Just trying to verify the application of what you said to this specific instance). 

If so, how would you suggest an alteration of the combat system to mitigate the pull towards homogeneity? In my view, the game is in a place where that isn’t possible without exterior intervention.

Nerf the things that are over performing, buff the things that are overperforming, make small adjustments until the meta settles, then change again still seems to be the conclusion I am coming to. I’d love to hear your thoughts 🙂 

(if you’ve posted them here already, just lmk, I honestly haven’t read everything in this thread)

Edited January 28, 2022 by oscuro.9720