If companions are the core mechanic of the ranger, why is it so abandoned?

[anduriell.6280]

As soon as you select the ranger as a new player you are greeted with a message which says about favoring ranged weapons and to use companions and the wild as main mechanics. 

However I feel like this is not taken into account when playing with the class: 

* Pets feel extremely underwhelming in any scenario, requiring obligatory traitlines to be able to function at an usable level: example Beastmastery for movement speed, Nature Magic for self-sustain by sharing the boons... 

* All the original companion-like mechanic has been removed/nerfed so they are not usable anymore. Like the mobile spirits. 

The fact the best elite for the ranger is the one that removes the pet from the game by merging with it speaks volumes about how players generally feel about the class.  This is not about "how to fix this and that" I think we already have provided enough feedback and a miriad of good ideas from many different players during the years.  

So I have an Honest question here: 

* Why do you think ranger which is supposed to be a companion class feels more and more like a second brand warrior? What driven this class from being an more or less unique class in vanilla to be basically a pewpew warrior in the soulbeast. 

* Is it because Anet devs don't understand the class? Because they don't know how to balance the pets? Or maybe because the servers can not handle all the rangers running around with multiple companions? Is there a deep reason related to resource management or just pure despise for the class? Or any other reasons? 

PS: Untamed does nothing for the companion mechanic. It is just providing the Fs available for the soulbeast to be used on the pets, in a very buggy way . 

Edited January 26, 2022 by anduriell.6280

[Abyssisis.3971]

It’s straight neglect, they just don’t care enough to invest the resources into fixing the issues with pets, when those resources are better invested into making new skins and gem store content to bring in revenue. Money talks.

[InsaneQR.7412]

Good question.

I dont nave an answer though.

Its probably risk/reward. They dont bother fixing old pets or the mechanic because the risk is to high with only a marginal reward because only a part of the player based factually mains ranger.

I am still clingy to hope that one day they will adress it. It got even mentioned on Teapots stream about the espec details that pet balance is neglected.

[Gorem.8104]

Ah, I so miss the early days of GW2, when we used cats and their stealth, and cats could solo people cause they were actually useful. 
compared to now where 90% of the time its a smokescale, or maybe Jacaranda with the rare tail swipe lizard. 
Like unless the new pets are either very strong ranged or have abilities that stick to targets or are high dps and healthy I can just see none of them being used. Especially by the worst spec in the entire game, Untamed - the only spec to have a tamed pet that does less dps then normal pets as it has to be micromanaged. 

 

Could you just imagine if now, your pet could down someone? The QQ would be so intense if people actually had to use skill to play this game and not just ignore this beast tickling them. As you say, they went and made it that now the best way to play the companion class, is to nearly keep it stowed permanently. I basically only see my pet now when I am downed, useful for its quick cc and rez. Though it is funny how the class is easier to play then warrior while outdpsing them and out surviving them by simply just removing said pet mechanic. 

[BadSanta.6527]

I rhink mech is the answer , its a apet with more survability and type change when trated . 

[Mell.4873]

Pets are fine, they are not going to win you any fights in pvp but they where never designed to. Use them as a distraction or extra boon/condition applications. 

The soulbeast merge mean you can instantly rez any pet so it not a huge loss if it dies. 

[InsaneQR.7412]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Pets are fine, they are not going to win you any fights in pvp but they where never designed to. Use them as a distraction or extra boon/condition applications. 

The soulbeast merge mean you can instantly rez any pet so it not a huge loss if it dies. 

My main issue of pets is not the dmage though. Its their lack of utility, the bugs and the neglected balance thats bugging me. And i assume tht hits the majority of the players. Give the ranger the damage and let the pet shine through utility.

Edited January 28, 2022 by InsaneQR.7412

[Andy.5981]

It would be a start if they had a reasonable chance of hitting a moving target. miss miss miss miss...

Imagine the outcry if Necromancer minions or Mesmer illusion/clones had a similar miss rate.

The big test is to see how reliable the Mechanist Mech is at hitting a target. Whats the betting it is far far better than Ranger pets?

[InsaneQR.7412]

5 hours ago, Andy.5981 said:

It would be a start if they had a reasonable chance of hitting a moving target. miss miss miss miss...

Imagine the outcry if Necromancer minions or Mesmer illusion/clones had a similar miss rate.

The big test is to see how reliable the Mechanist Mech is at hitting a target. Whats the betting it is far far better than Ranger pets?

I mean besides the fact that the mech has actual good signets attached to it, CC immunity in PvE and a way to buff your team automatically?

i would pay all the damage of my pet if it would grant regular barrier and perma alacrity by just existing.

Edited January 28, 2022 by InsaneQR.7412

[Dadnir.5038]

Pets are integrated as a whole into the ranger's gameplay, all traitlines have traits that affect the familiar, many utilities interact with it and some weapons also give your pet something. The reason behind the popularity of the "new" pets over the old one is simply that they got their own powercreep.

Also:

- You do not necessarily need nature magic to share your boons with your pet, "We heal as one!" work as well.

- Nature Spirits aren't "pets", they are poorly designed buffing turrets.

- Let's keep in mind that consequent part of the ranger community would prefer for the pet to be a smaller part of the ranger (which led to an increase of the ranger's own coefficient at the expense of the pet's).

- The competitive modes communities (which is probably the most listened community of this forum) can't stand losing to "AI".

- "Bearbow" happened in the early days of the game (Unfortunately, the mark of this sin will never fade away).

- Historically, pets were hitting harder, had less health points and could barely land a hit (to be fair, I can remember my familiar doing more damage on boss fight than the warrior of the party in december 2012).

- Like many thing that the devs started, an improvement of the pets' ability to actually land hits have been left half finished after poor results on the moa.

 

The pets are held back by 3 things:

- The gamemode: zerg v zerg isn't a viable environment for "AI".

- Their animations: I'm pretty sure that the devs would have a moutain of work to unable a speed up of all those animations.

- The inability of the ranger to prevent a familiar from using it's skills.

 

ZvZ is an unsolvable equation, the animations need more work than the devs are ready to provide for a single profession and the last point is the hurdle that untamed try (poorly) to get past.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

Honestly, the main reason is that the game have progressed since its release, while AI couldnt keep up.
It would take too much effort and skill to make pet AI function as a proper companion should, there is a reason why untamed pets got instant teleport as one of their skills, its because the AI simply could not function without it.
I dont even think its anything to do with neglect/hate for rangers, I just thing devs are not capable of fixing the issue.
Even much better made games struggle to make pet mechanics right, its very difficult to pull off

[captrowdy.9561]

I wish the new spec was a pet less ranger. Ya soulbeast is close. Ranger is my favorite class other then dealing with the dumb pet. 

[Dadnir.5038]

11 hours ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

I wish the new spec was a pet less ranger. Ya soulbeast is close. Ranger is my favorite class other then dealing with the dumb pet. 

You can't get a "pet-less ranger", simply because there are to many traits and skill effects tied to the pets on the ranger (even downstate need a pet). Even soulbeast manage poorly the loss of the pet as the balancing of this spec has been grueling since PoF release.

I can hardly believe that the ranger got 3 e-specs yet never got restriction (beyond the "that's the meta pet!" restriction) on the choice of pet for any of those spec. You could have had a spec specializing in handling insects (devourer/spider), a spec specialized in handling birds... etc.

I mean:

1. Falconeer: You can only use birds. Your birds fly high in the sky making them immun to ground aoe. Trait: shared vision: increase your ranged attack range by 200 point. Eagle eye: Blindness duration on you is reduced by 70%, gain 100 precision for 10s whenever you are blinded... etc. Skill: Soaring: basically vindicator's dodge but on an utility slot. Buffering: move the wind around you, destroying incoming projectile and pushing back foes within 300 range... etc.
2. Hive master: You can only use insect. You can merge with your insect, gaining new profession skills. F1: Insect carapace: gain toughness, protection and resolution for x seconds. F2: skill specific to the insect you merged with. F3: Spawn: Spawn 2 (3 when traited) little insect of the insect type you merged with to attack and poison your foe (necromancer's jagged horror but with poison instead of bleed)... etc. Trait: compound eye, kitin carapace... etc. Utility: venom (Isn't it strange that the ranger don't have access to venom already?)
3. Alpha: You can only use canine. F4 no longer send off instantly your current familiar, instead this familiar linger for 15s during which you have 2 familiar to help you out (The F2 available is the last summoned familiar skill). Trait: Pack leader: Increase the duration during which your familiar linger. Wild aura: Your familiars gain 10 might and ferocity whenever you use F4... etc. Utilities: Howls: A set of shout like ability that can summon canines and buff your canines.
4. Gardener: You can only use plants. F4: Seed: Transform your plant into an invulnerable magic seed that hover next to you and gain a set of profession skill to command this seed to create spores with various effects.

Wouldn't it be easy to do that for e-spec? Why do ANet's devs force themselves to try to keep the ability to use every single pet? (especially since in the end people end up just using the "meta" powercreeped pet). You'd get clear thematics for each spec related to a pet family.

[Gorem.8104]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You can't get a "pet-less ranger", simply because there are to many traits and skill effects tied to the pets on the ranger (even downstate need a pet). Even soulbeast manage poorly the loss of the pet as the balancing of this spec has been grueling since PoF release.

I can hardly believe that the ranger got 3 e-specs yet never got restriction (beyond the "that's the meta pet!" restriction) on the choice of pet for any of those spec. You could have had a spec specializing in handling insects (devourer/spider), a spec specialized in handling birds... etc.

I mean:

1. Falconeer: You can only use birds. Your birds fly high in the sky making them immun to ground aoe. Trait: shared vision: increase your ranged attack range by 200 point. Eagle eye: Blindness duration on you is reduced by 70%, gain 100 precision for 10s whenever you are blinded... etc. Skill: Soaring: basically vindicator's dodge but on an utility slot. Buffering: move the wind around you, destroying incoming projectile and pushing back foes within 300 range... etc.
2. Hive master: You can only use insect. You can merge with your insect, gaining new profession skills. F1: Insect carapace: gain toughness, protection and resolution for x seconds. F2: skill specific to the insect you merged with. F3: Spawn: Spawn 2 (3 when traited) little insect of the insect type you merged with to attack and poison your foe (necromancer's jagged horror but with poison instead of bleed)... etc. Trait: compound eye, kitin carapace... etc. Utility: venom (Isn't it strange that the ranger don't have access to venom already?)
3. Alpha: You can only use canine. F4 no longer send off instantly your current familiar, instead this familiar linger for 15s during which you have 2 familiar to help you out (The F2 available is the last summoned familiar skill). Trait: Pack leader: Increase the duration during which your familiar linger. Wild aura: Your familiars gain 10 might and ferocity whenever you use F4... etc. Utilities: Howls: A set of shout like ability that can summon canines and buff your canines.
4. Gardener: You can only use plants. F4: Seed: Transform your plant into an invulnerable magic seed that hover next to you and gain a set of profession skill to command this seed to create spores with various effects.

Wouldn't it be easy to do that for e-spec? Why do ANet's devs force themselves to try to keep the ability to use every single pet? (especially since in the end people end up just using the "meta" powercreeped pet). You'd get clear thematics for each spec related to a pet family.

I so wanna be an Alpha now.
Edit: Actually ya know, it would be nice to see them actually just have fun with Especs like this. Why can't we have just pure fun specs to play? Untamed is not fun to play and incredibly boring design while at the same time incredibly weak. Yet you mention 4 specs that already could mix things up immensely. Ya know, have some fun with the spec, try something different. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Gorem.8104

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

I so wanna be an Alpha now.
Edit: Actually ya know, it would be nice to see them actually just have fun with Especs like this. Why can't we have just pure fun specs to play? Untamed is not fun to play and incredibly boring design while at the same time incredibly weak. Yet you mention 4 specs that already could mix things up immensely. Ya know, have some fun with the spec, try something different. 

Well, to be fair, apart from hive master because devourers are amphibians), none of those specs would work underwater atm. The devs would have to introduce Seadogs/otter, Algaes (Thought, one can argue whether jellyfishs are plant or not as a part of their life cycle is spent rooted on the soil) and you'd need an "underwater bird" (flying fishs). 

[Xenash.1245]

21 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

Honestly, the main reason is that the game have progressed since its release, while AI couldnt keep up.
It would take too much effort and skill to make pet AI function as a proper companion should, there is a reason why untamed pets got instant teleport as one of their skills, its because the AI simply could not function without it.
I dont even think its anything to do with neglect/hate for rangers, I just thing devs are not capable of fixing the issue.
Even much better made games struggle to make pet mechanics right, its very difficult to pull off

I agree and disagree personally, since I agree the AI just not being able to keep up is for all intents probably something the devs just can't figure out how to do or to balance properly. But at the same time I'd same the lack of any real balancing when it comes to pet skills to make up for this fact, is definitely a sign of neglect in my opinion.

That's not to say they should put resources into looking into that if they're already stretched thin, but that still doesn't really change much.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Xenash.1245

[Jobber.6348]

It feels more like Anet can't figure out how to micromanage pets while keeping Ranger's power level reasonable, so you have a half-assed system where you can kinda control pets with Orders and then have a few pet skills to use. 

If it were up to me, I'll do this : 
- Ranger weapon damage reduced by 30% from current
- Pet damage increased by 50% from current

- Command skill line entirely removed and become Ranger's core mechanic

- Pet active skills removed entirely, pet themselves cast it on a rotation, becoming part of their "attack sequence" 

- introduce a new skill line to replace Commands

 

This will move power away from Ranger's personal damage, making their pet a more important feature of the entire class, and with Commands being baseline core mechanics tied to profession mechanic, they will be able to better micromanage their pets for combat or support. 

Commands which move to the class bar will be 
- Guard

- Protect Me

- Search and Rescue

- Sic Em 

 

We Heal as One and Strength of the Pack should be kept on the utility bar as part of a new skill line. 

[Puck.3697]

Here's effectively why:

- pets are largely bugged and only a few of them are not bugged

- Anet don't like AI being too strong because of PvP reasons really, watching people get murdered by AI in a player Vs player enviroment is largely disliked by the playerbaae. 

- pets AI isn't intelligent enough not just stand in everything. 

The new elite does work to give more control on your pets damage realistically, but ilargely it's a unpopular mechanic. Hence why we saw the introduction of soulbeast and so many love it. 

Anet know what they want to do with em. They just exist for RP purposes and I guess tail swipe gameplay sees some good use in PvP. 

Untamed seems to bring more pet power in PvP atleast.but we will see how long that lasts 

[Abyssisis.3971]

Imo, 

boon sharing to be made baseline,

cleansing to effect both ranger and pet,

pack alpha be expanded on to provide more protection/resolution to the pet only or at least give pets baseline increases in protection and resolution when they gain it.

I also like the idea of having the command utility skills on the pet utility bar as well, tho I would rework ‘we heal as one’ as just ‘heal’ to just heal the pet, instead of boon sharing. 

 

When it comes to the actual pet, I’d like all pet auto skills removed and put on a skill bar with a cooldown between uses to so that I control when they use their skills, not the pet. 
 

The pet should only be autocasting it’s basic attack, which should be reworked into a 3 attack chain to help them hit/stick to their targets, for example cats could have a right swipe, left swipe, followed by a 2 handed maul with increased range . Once the attack chain starts, it will finish regardless of being in range of the target or not. I’d be looking at .25 left, .25 right and .5 for the increase range 2 handed maul, possibly 240 range aoe in front of the cat.

 

nothing fancy, just qol changes for interacting with my pet. 😀

 

 

 

[Abyssisis.3971]

This is what I think should happen to make the pet command bar a bit better.

F keys are assignable by the player to be in whatever order they want them in. But as default, the following.

F1 - sic’ em!

         - flip skill - return to me while sic’ em is on CD

         - 30 second cooldown, refreshing when out of combat

         - 6 sec reveal, +25% damage and 40% move speed increase for 10 seconds

F2 - protect me!

         - flip skill - return to me while protect me! Is on CD

         - 30 second cooldown, refreshing when out of combat

         - your pet rushing back to you, gaining 5 seconds of protection and periodically gaining barrier over 5 seconds while absorbing 30% of damage applied to the ranger.

F3 - heal yourself!

         - flip skill - toughen up! Pet gains 5 sec of protection, resolution and resistance

         - 30 second cooldown, refreshing when out of combat

         - heals x amount of HP and cleansing conditions

F4 - pet family skill

F5 - pet specific skill

F6 - swap pet

Guard/ avoid combat and stow/activate as clickable buttons.

Changing sic em and protect me to command bar skills removes them from player utility skills.

We heal as one - should be changed to a shout skill that heal both you and the pet while cleansing some conditions. No longer shares boons.

Strength of the pack - shout skill

Delete guard and search and rescue from player utility skills.

Allies aid trait in NM should just have the pet return to you and assist in reviving when you begin reviving an ally.

resounding timbre changed to effect shouts rather than commands.

Introduce 2-3 other shouts to fill in the slots left over from removing the command skills.

for example…

I see you!  Shout 30 CD (throw back to my man Sauron from lotr) 

        - 1200 range AoE reveal around the ranger. Removes stability of stealthed enemies while knocking them down for 3 seconds. Reveal last 6 seconds.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Abyssisis.3971

[The Boz.2038]

Don't c/p with formatting.

[Abyssisis.3971]

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Don't c/p with formatting.

yea, looks weird when I posted it. Too late now. Lol

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

yea, looks weird when I posted it. Too late now. Lol

You can edit, c/p into notepad and then back.

[Abyssisis.3971]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You can edit, c/p into notepad and then back.

I typed it into a notepad to begin with before copying it here.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

It's because there are too many pets to balance around.  They fixed this somewhat with soulbeast merge skills as there are only so many of them; but the original idea of having unique F2s for most pets is a big issue.  It worked better when the game was slower and less boon spammy, but now its just outdated and shows.

 

I personally don't think the attack/return mechanic should be touched at all--it needs to be two separate buttons.  Having the ability to micromanage the other auto skills the pet uses is fine, but it should just do its normal rotation unless interrupted.  This is a big problem with the untamed as having to position the pet AND now do its job by hitting attacks when we want is too much. 

 

In short, the direction Untamed is going in is a good one, we do need control of all aspects.  Just make the usual ones auto-castable and interruptible.  That's it for the pet mechanics.  Then just fix up the traitlines to fit within todays game and increase the leash range a little bit (especially since pets now have projectile hate and whatnot).