Nerf confirmed for Renegade, Firebrand, and Scourge with Expansion launch

[Justine.6351]

Its kind of sad people are ok with nerfing current stuff if it brings the new specs forward as meta. Where are all the people who would normally squawk "pay 2 win"?

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Its kind of sad people are ok with nerfing current stuff if it brings the new specs forward as meta. Where are all the people who would normally squawk "pay 2 win"?

It's B2P, not P2W.  Get over it.  It's long overdue these classes got the nerf beating of a lifetime.

[Jski.6180]

8 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Its kind of sad people are ok with nerfing current stuff if it brings the new specs forward as meta. Where are all the people who would normally squawk "pay 2 win"?

The same thing happen with HoT and PoF just the simple fact that they are giving EoD classes "need boons" to be viable for pve per anet is saying a lot about what the devs think of old classes. Core classes are in a sad sate and would need a LOT to bring them up to par.

The classes need far more balancing and reworks then what we are going to get in what looks like a mostly small update (2 years + now from the last big update.)

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The same thing happen with HoT and PoF just the simple fact that they are giving EoD classes "need boons" to be viable for pve per anet is saying a lot about what the devs think of old classes. Core classes are in a sad sate and would need a LOT to bring them up to par.

The classes need far more balancing and reworks then what we are going to get in what looks like a mostly small update (2 years + now from the last big update.)

I don't know the specifics (have they announced them?), but I can't think of a better place to start than ensuring that the big 3 are no longer dominant.

Core classes are always going to be a problem unless they do something about the design of elite specs.  Since everything you give to core is also given to the elites, it's very difficult for core to compete.

[Jski.6180]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I don't know the specifics (have they announced them?), but I can't think of a better place to start than ensuring that the big 3 are no longer dominant.

Core classes are always going to be a problem unless they do something about the design of elite specs.  Since everything you give to core is also given to the elites, it's very difficult for core to compete.

Just alone not having quickness and alacrity alone is a massive lost to the other elite spec classes. That why all of this update looks like its going to be a mess for EoD. Unless you think they are giving all of the elite spec classes one of these 2 boons?

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Just alone not having quickness and alacrity alone is a massive lost to the other elite spec classes. That why all of this update looks like its going to be a mess for EoD. Unless you think they are giving all of the elite spec classes one of these 2 boons?

I'm not sure why it's seen as a good thing that we must have these boons and that they must be provided at full uptime by 1 or 2 classes.  That's how we ended up with the clownshow meta in the first place.  Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if they stopped powercreeping the kitten out of the game at every turn for a change?  Is it a commandment that thou shalt always have quickness, alacrity, stability, and aegis?  I don't get it.

[Jski.6180]

7 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm not sure why it's seen as a good thing that we must have these boons and that they must be provided at full uptime by 1 or 2 classes.  That's how we ended up with the clownshow meta in the first place.  Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if they stopped powercreeping the kitten out of the game at every turn for a change?  Is it a commandment that thou shalt always have quickness, alacrity, stability, and aegis?  I don't get it.

Why not eod giving classes 1 boon why not give the other elite spec the other boon? The power creep is the other elite spec non eod having one of these 2 boons but not all eleit spec have them so at best ppl are simply asking for them not to have the effect out of some noble feeling knowing that the game already powercreeped but not for the classes left out in the cold. Its just not a good argument.

[anbujackson.9564]

8 hours ago, SovietVixen.7396 said:

Care to elaborate?

Sure. But let me ask you something else instead first. Do you think that PvE got easier or harder over the years? 

In short: Its the easiest and most broken state of the game right now. Dps in general is way too high for the content. Boons are all over the place. Classes/specs bringing so much utility (boons, barrier, even banners,...) while dealing way too much damage, partly even more than a straight dps spec. I mean just look around: Everything dies so fast, no matter if its open world or instanced content. Bosses phasing in seconds, raid bosses not even lasting 3 minutes and so on. Mechanics being ignored everywhere.

At what point is the game too easy for you?

Edited February 15, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Zekent.3652]

Seems like pve only nerfs, not surprised.

[draxynnic.3719]

48 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Sure. But let me ask you something else instead first. Do you think that PvE got easier or harder over the years? 

In short: Its the easiest and most broken state of the game right now. Dps in general is way too high for the content. Boons are all over the place. Classes/specs bringing so much utility (boons, barrier, even banners,...) while dealing way too much damage, partly even more than a straight dps spec. I mean just look around: Everything dies so fast, no matter if its open world or instanced content. Bosses phasing in seconds, raid bosses not even lasting 3 minutes and so on. Mechanics being ignored everywhere.

At what point is the game too easy for you?

Somewhere beyond the point at which endgame PvE isn't dying out because most people can't get into it in the first place. I'm sure it's easy for the experienced raiders to claim that things are too easy, but I expect that's cold comfort when it's been years since the last raid wing was released because there aren't enough people playing it to justify the development costs.

Mind you, ArenaNet has said that they're planning to make EoD mechanics harder to ignore.

[LucianDK.8615]

7 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Harbinger is more supportive than Scourge.

 

Scourge has almost no boonshare, just Might stacking, and really only offers heals, cleanses, barriers and revives, most of which are still available to Harbinger since aside from a few barrier sources, they're all Core Necro mechanics, especially their main purpose on Mercy Scourge build will work with Harb as well.

 

Most importantly, Harbinger offers Quickness, one of the top three boons. This alone will shift metas away from just taking a condi DPS barrier Scourge in every comp, especially if QFB gets nerfed.

Scourge barrier/healing is support. Especially with mercy runes, you can keep raising people. How is that not support?

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

Its kind of sad people are ok with nerfing current stuff if it brings the new specs forward as meta. Where are all the people who would normally squawk "pay 2 win"?

Because, expansions have never been considered pay 2 win. 

Ontop of this, they aren't nerfing current stuff to ensure the new elites are better. They're nerfing current stuff to bring it down the equal with the new elites. 

Firebrand scourge and renegade stand multiple times stronger then any of the new elites. They need bringing down. Because their power creep is toxic to the game. 

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Seems like pve only nerfs, not surprised.

Ofcourse it's Pve nerfs. 

These 3 speccs suck in PvP excluding renegade, but even then herald has taken alot of favour recently. 

I think the response is mainly because how many are screeching that the new elites have no role compared.. they've stated there is a balance patch. 

Hopefully things like core necro are included in that (and staff / staff mirage. I am a mesmer and i want that build to die)

 

[Zekent.3652]

10 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Ofcourse it's Pve nerfs. 

These 3 speccs suck in PvP excluding renegade, but even then herald has taken alot of favour recently. 

I think the response is mainly because how many are screeching that the new elites have no role compared.. they've stated there is a balance patch. 

Hopefully things like core necro are included in that (and staff / staff mirage. I am a mesmer and i want that build to die)

 

Reminds me as warrior main expecting for the healbreaker build to die, but also sad because now guard is the only and far better healing support, and the only meta warrior build got nuked.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Reminds me as warrior main expecting for the healbreaker build to die, but also sad because now guard is the only and far better healing support, and the only meta warrior build got nuked.

Tbh the fact they've stated there's a expertise and a concentration set up coming back into spvp is bound to change something up. So the meta will change somewhat. 

The rest will depend on the final changes + state of EoD speccs tbh. 

Given how much of a low cost win nerfing necro would be, it'd suprise me if they didn't do it considering the the quantity of positive feedback they'd get for doing it. 

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

You guys sure this isn't just about reducing the boon target cap?

 

Anyway, I am a bit weary about what these nerfs might be.  The healbrand + alacrigade combo provides immense boon coverage on top of their reflects and CC.  No other composition can compete.  If one of these specs were gutted so we no longer get full coverage of boons... there's no replacing it.  If the EoD specs could just slot out one of the above two, then the PoF specs wouldn't need to be nerfed.  Heck, most of the HoT specs can't compete, either, which is why you don't see many Druid + Chrono comps in fractals, and why you never see Heal-scrapper with anything else.

We might just be entering into a new era where the meta comp consists of 3 supports and two DPS.  This is going to have the opposite effect of allowing more class diversity in groups.  The meta is going to settle onto something like ChronoDruid + Condibrand,  with only two free spaces for everyone else.  The support specs aren't as interchangeable as Anet says they are.  We can't just switch out one quickness source for another and have everything go alright.  

Edited February 15, 2022 by Blood Red Arachnid.2493

[Puck.3697]

36 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You guys sure this isn't just about reducing the boon target cap?

 

Anyway, I am a bit weary about what these nerfs might be.  The healbrand + alacrigade combo provides immense boon coverage on top of their reflects and CC.  No other composition can compete.  If one of these specs were gutted so we no longer get full coverage of boons... there's no replacing it.  If the EoD specs could just slot out one of the above two, then the PoF specs wouldn't need to be nerfed.  Heck, most of the HoT specs can't compete, either, which is why you don't see many Druid + Chrono comps in fractals, and why you never see Heal-scrapper with anything else.

We might just be entering into a new era where the meta comp consists of 3 supports and two DPS.  This is going to have the opposite effect of allowing more class diversity in groups.  The meta is going to settle onto something like ChronoDruid + Condibrand,  with only two free spaces for everyone else.  The support specs aren't as interchangeable as Anet says they are.  We can't just switch out one quickness source for another and have everything go alright.  

I doubt it's gutting you have to remember several things here. 

Tempest and druid just got 50% weaker. Cutting them to 5 man with 0 number adjustments halves their output realistically. 

Firebrands weakness was being weak with 10 man boon providing however has been a absolute dominant force in fractal metas because it's top of the food chain with 5 man boons. Spreading this to raids would make firebrand even more oppressive against other options. 

Scourge has now the only access to 10 man barrier due to how it works mechanically. Because of this it by default would bench multiple other barrier speccs by merely existing. 

These 3 ironically would be more oppressive and accidently buffed off the back of cutting boons to 5 man only, which means they have to neuter that power creep before that happens. 

Boons won't be a issue. There's lots of options for boons, the issue is they've been overshadowed and forgotten realistically. 

The idea is every proffession will have access to fulfilling alacrity or quickness. Remember long term druids getting spirits reworked. 

Well to speed runs, meta comps yes it's not as interchangable. However on clearing content it doesn't really exist. You can easily do all content with alternative builds for easy exampl to. 

Meta isn't breakable. They will never get this game perfect meta wise it simply doesn't exist.all they can do is try and get all proffessions as close as possible to each other. 

To try and make things less oppressive. But yeah meta wise no decision they make will be the right one 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Ofcourse it's Pve nerfs. 

These 3 speccs suck in PvP excluding renegade, but even then herald has taken alot of favour recently. 

I think the response is mainly because how many are screeching that the new elites have no role compared.. they've stated there is a balance patch. 

Hopefully things like core necro are included in that (and staff / staff mirage. I am a mesmer and i want that build to die)

 

Did you forget WvW? FB and scourges are very prominent in Zergs.

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Did you forget WvW? FB and scourges are very prominent in Zergs.

I do always forget those 2 in WvWvW still are overpowered 😂 

But I'm guessing as they intend to drop 4 strikes on EoD launch, it's suicide to not deal with these 3, as they will destroy any difficulty to the encounters and likely become very negative on experience. 

For the larger changes involving wvwvw and spvp I'd imagine we will sadly largely wait til summer "significant balancing and mechanical reworks patch" weve been told several times about. 

I'm pressuming they know for any chance of the new strikes being a success those 3 have to get knocked down. But I guess never know, some of the nerfs may apply to WvWvW and SPVP. 

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

You guys sure this isn't just about reducing the boon target cap?

 

Anyway, I am a bit weary about what these nerfs might be.  The healbrand + alacrigade combo provides immense boon coverage on top of their reflects and CC.  No other composition can compete.  If one of these specs were gutted so we no longer get full coverage of boons... there's no replacing it.  If the EoD specs could just slot out one of the above two, then the PoF specs wouldn't need to be nerfed.  Heck, most of the HoT specs can't compete, either, which is why you don't see many Druid + Chrono comps in fractals, and why you never see Heal-scrapper with anything else.

We might just be entering into a new era where the meta comp consists of 3 supports and two DPS.  This is going to have the opposite effect of allowing more class diversity in groups.  The meta is going to settle onto something like ChronoDruid + Condibrand,  with only two free spaces for everyone else.  The support specs aren't as interchangeable as Anet says they are.  We can't just switch out one quickness source for another and have everything go alright.  

I'm not sure about anything.  I mean, they made this happen in the first place and they didn't do a kitten thing about it until now.  I'm glad the big 3 are on the chopping block finally, but do I trust ANet to get anything right at this point?  Let's just say that's more trust than they've earned.  So, we'll see.

Your concerns are valid, especially in the context of the 10-man content they seem to be focusing on.

[BobbyT.7192]

Guardians still have a good amount of stab and prot, with the only good source of aegis. So unless they touch that, they will still be a high value pick for any group.

The most i can see happening is the 10 man buffs going down to 5, and maybe adjust alacrity and quickness uptime so its not permanent with out heavier investment into concentration gear.

Edited February 15, 2022 by BobbyT.7192

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

6 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Seems like pve only nerfs, not surprised.

Anet hasnt even talked about pvp in like 2 years. Ill be surprised if they ever do so again.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

17 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

A little? Whats that? Some minor barrier change and another 5% of demonic lore on scourge? Less base duration quickness and a few seconds less burning on some skills on firebrand? Some more duration decreases on torment on renegade?

 Seriously, just obliterate them, they are unhealthy for the game.

And until the big balance patch(es) they will keep dominating the game.

Yes, let's give them the Ele and Chrono treatment, while there nerf Druid too, it's way too dominant as a main heal in 10 player content.

/s

[Dadnir.5038]

15 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

I wholly expect scourge dps potential to get obliterated, to ensure that they only will work as a heal/barrier bot spec. To promote the Harbinger as the new condi spec for necromancer.

Come on... isn't it obvious that they will nerf scourge's concentration from sand sage to make it clear that harbinger is the boon spec?

[Astralporing.1957]

15 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

I wholly expect scourge dps potential to get obliterated, to ensure that they only will work as a heal/barrier bot spec. To promote the Harbinger as the new condi spec for necromancer.

Well, that's what they did with Reaper just before PoF. I guess if we ever get another necro espec in the future, Harbringer condi dps will get killed as well just before that.