The community asks for nerfs to shadowarts, thief mains agree, and you just boost reliance on shadowarts even more, hello?

[Crab Fear.1624]

Nerf shadowarts, and smokescreen.

Why are you making thieves have a 40 second heal, and nerfing a skill you have already basically destroyed?

These nerfs only boost reliance on shadowarts.

Completely out of touch with your players.

[Tails.9372]

No, this is the part of the feedback they actually paid attention to:

"people complained that thief has too much access to stealth"

and then they go from there in what usually seems like a trial and error esque fashion. A-Net historically never cared about the details of the feedback players provided them with. Context and player preference usually doesn't matter to them.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Zacchary.6183]

Maybe the thief community could, perhaps, ask anet to buff the performance of other non-stealth builds instead of using stealth until anet deletes it from the game. Just an idea.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Zacchary.6183

[Crab Fear.1624]

2 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Maybe the thief community could, perhaps, ask anet to buff the performance of other non-stealth builds instead of using stealth until anet deletes it from the game. Just an idea.

If I want to play non stealth thief, I'll play revenant.

[Tails.9372]

6 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Maybe the thief community could, perhaps, ask anet to buff the performance of other non-stealth builds instead of using stealth until anet deletes it from the game. Just an idea.

Except they did, countless times over the course of the last decade. Obviously to no avail.

[Kaizen.3804]

42 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Maybe the thief community could, perhaps, ask anet to buff the performance of other non-stealth builds instead of using stealth until anet deletes it from the game. Just an idea.

That's precisely what we've been doing for nigh on a decade. It's not our fault the Balance team at Anet is staffed entirely by chimpanzees.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Keitaro Dragonheart.9047

[Zacchary.6183]

@Tails.9372@Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 The anet of today is not the anet 10 years ago. They actually listen to players now, but they still have issues with it. Anet does not play thief enough to really get a firm grasp on how it functions and it doesn't seem like they will at this rate. So all they have to go off of is the playerbase to determine what needs to be done to it. However, the playerbase also has an issue with gatekeeping and has been kept in the +1/decap bot meta so much that's all balancing is based around. Then there are non-thief players who generally want free kills from thief.

Anet needs to play the profession extensively instead of going off the opinions and emotions of niche groups. Thief players need to ween themselves off stealth and use something else so anet can use that data to balance out other parts of the profession. And finally, non-thief players need to get it into their heads they are not entitled to kills and need to either admit they aren't as good as they think or play the profession and learn how it works so they can counter it.

If it takes completely deleting the thief meta to get the ball rolling, so be it. But that is just my opinion.

[kash.9213]

48 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

@Tails.9372@Keitaro Dragonheart.9047 The anet of today is not the anet 10 years ago. They actually listen to players now, but they still have issues with it. Anet does not play thief enough to really get a firm grasp on how it functions and it doesn't seem like they will at this rate. So all they have to go off of is the playerbase to determine what needs to be done to it. However, the playerbase also has an issue with gatekeeping and has been kept in the +1/decap bot meta so much that's all balancing is based around. Then there are non-thief players who generally want free kills from thief.

Anet needs to play the profession extensively instead of going off the opinions and emotions of niche groups. Thief players need to ween themselves off stealth and use something else so anet can use that data to balance out other parts of the profession. And finally, non-thief players need to get it into their heads they are not entitled to kills and need to either admit they aren't as good as they think or play the profession and learn how it works so they can counter it.

If it takes completely deleting the thief meta to get the ball rolling, so be it. But that is just my opinion.

A lot of players here do play those other builds. My two main builds are low stealth but there's a threshold of pressure I hit in WvW and to keep myself and my teamates up I'm going to have to play my SA template and also stealth all of us often and I'm sure players all of the modes can feel where that line is. 

[Zacchary.6183]

2 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

A lot of players here do play those other builds. My two main builds are low stealth but there's a threshold of pressure I hit in WvW and to keep myself and my teamates up I'm going to have to play my SA template and also stealth all of us often and I'm sure players all of the modes can feel where that line is. 

I try to avoid using stealth in my builds. It works for the most part but often shows how limited the thief is which translates into ideas for improvement. I can't help playerbase mentality though.

[SoulSin.5682]

Sad life.

 

Every class try their best to push their limits on their own builds and here we are here posting stuff like "oh, we should play more non-stealth builds, just so they don't nerf then, and the rest, even more".

 

The whole class balance history is bs. 
 

[Cynz.9437]

8 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I try to avoid using stealth in my builds. It works for the most part but often shows how limited the thief is which translates into ideas for improvement. I can't help playerbase mentality though.

You know some people like to play stealth builds because oh wonder, we play a ROLE PLAYING GAME and some want to be a sneaky assassin. Problem is not stealth problem is that game got so dumbed down for players that they expect easy bags no matter how much this game holds their hands already.

Look at latest pvp meta: it is only guards and necros because those 2 had really good survival while dishing out good damage (necros mostly).  We are nearly at 1 skill 1 class game because Anet focuses too much on lazy rewarding gameplay. At this rate candy crush will have more engaging combat system than GW2.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Cynz.9437

[Crab Fear.1624]

11 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I try to avoid using stealth in my builds. It works for the most part but often shows how limited the thief is which translates into ideas for improvement. I can't help playerbase mentality though.

No, you have it wrong dude.

Many play thief because it has stealth and that play style.

Literally, making it anything else, and there are better options for non stealth play, which one should play.

Such as revenant.

They need to stop listening to a vocal minority that hates thief because they refuse to learn how it functions.

Necro mains should try to ressurect their ability to adapt.

If they remove stealth from thief....

I'll adapt my kitten to another game. 

[ixon.2496]

They break the core profession design with each elite spec. At launch thief was a squishy cannon, damage numbers were way too high, but i do miss dagger/dagger power builds. Timing your backstabs and kiting. 

 

Then they introduced revealed, creating a direct counter to stealth, nerfed backstab crits, and added delay to missing or after being blocked. So the overall flow got worse and survivability went down.

 

Then comes daredevil, evasion ontop of stealth. Yknow, just to doubly annoy your enemy. But thief became somewhat fun again. *Whack* nerfs. Shortbow 5 gets killed. Initative costs go up.

 

Thief has never been "unplayable" like warrior, but it has never gotten actual buffs to anything that underperforms in its traits, venoms got a slight buff with the sharing but they are so underwhelming nobody uses them same goes for changing traps into preperations (because of trapper rune and no other reason) , its generally just nerfs to the things it does effectively. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

No, you have it wrong dude.

Many play thief because it has stealth and that play style.

Literally, making it anything else, and there are better options for non stealth play, which one should play.

Hold on ... there is no "SHOULD play this" in GW2. Many people have lots of different reasons to choose the classes they play. Don't pretend anyone "SHOULD" be playing anything for reasons other than the personal reasons they have. 

Stealth is getting a nerf; that's what people have been calling for ages. It's hard to argue against this move by Anet to make this change. At least we know it's a direction Anet is willing to take on this topic and likely one they are willing to push harder if it continues to be a problem.

To be fair to you, I suspect the only reason they are making this change is because of the role Spector has and much less because people don't like stealth. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Curennos.9307]

At this point I honestly think Anet needs the thief forum to collaborate on a giant google doc of every single change to make to thief, because otherwise they'll never get it right. Some changes can be fine when acknowledged as kind of a band-aid solution/temporary fix to be adjusted further later, but these fail to even reach that level. I'm sure they're busy with EoD but I would have rather gotten nothing than this.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Maybe the thief community could, perhaps, ask anet to buff the performance of other non-stealth builds instead of using stealth until anet deletes it from the game. Just an idea.

We tried that.

The whine subsequently destroyed sword, sword pistol, pistol pistol, acrobatics and staff. And guardians complain every time they get hit by sword dagger. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

disregard

Edited February 20, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Teratus.2859]

15 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

I try to avoid using stealth in my builds. It works for the most part but often shows how limited the thief is which translates into ideas for improvement. I can't help playerbase mentality though.

Same, I always found it kinda boring to play.
In my mind a rogue is more of a scrapper but Gw2's thief doesn't really play like this, least not in a satisfactory way to me.
It's always been hit and run, hit and run and I just never cared for that kind of playstyle.

A while ago though I made this build and using it is by far the most fun i've ever had with thief in Gw2.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaxAgiZlJkw8ybYhtruGZnW2TXNbA-zxQY7ob6hvU6LVDsAaNICOiM5EEm/KYG-e

I doubt it's useful in the PvP modes but I don't enjoy that content much and I didn't design the build for it anyway.
In PvE it's a blast to play ^^ it makes the thief actually feel like a scrapper who can stay in a fight for the long haul, healing and sustaining itself while fighting which fits a classic rogue like playstyle to me.
Give it a try if that kind of playstyle interests you. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Tbh despite the changes, the thief guild im running are making team comps of nothing but thief and especs to em to say "screw your nerfs, we're gonna break your game with just thief..who needs other classes?!

 

Theory crafting and such though its not that big of a deal except increase in heal cd from HiS and the duration from 7s to 4s...youll just have to take withdraw right now because in the end your sacrificing sustain. Specter introduction changes the playing field, with all the cc and barrier plus extra health from.shroud....is it really that bad??

[Dadnir.5038]

Well, let's keep in mind that they could have increased CnD and Black powder's initiative cost to 8 like they did for infiltrator arrow.

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We tried that.

The whine subsequently destroyed sword, sword pistol, pistol pistol, acrobatics and staff. And guardians complain every time they get hit by sword dagger. 
 

Yeah, years ago. But if anet is going to understand the condition thief is in, something needs to break. Because right now thief is in a self perpetuating maelstrom of problems. Let stealth and the meta die so we have another Nov 15th patch notes exodus and ask for buffs again or perhaps some real defense. Show that the people who are complaining just want free kills, because they will find something else to complain about.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

I just want Deadly Aim to be reversed back i to Ricochet with rocheting projectiles from pistol instead what it is now. Harbinger gets this option, engi auto with pistol has an aoe explosion for their auto attack but we have to trait for it?! Ricochet please baby baby please!!!

[Ausar.9542]

Did yall play Specter? This would be OP paired with SA and Smoke Screen

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

18 minutes ago, Ausar.9542 said:

Did yall play Specter? This would be OP paired with SA and Smoke Screen

I did but sa is honestly a waste if u take trickery and deadly arts.  Smoke screen duration will only be 4s duration in pvp. Could use it to cover SoS ( lol, just realized its abbreviations) though

[Crab Fear.1624]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... there is no "SHOULD play this" in GW2. Many people have lots of different reasons to choose the classes they play. Don't pretend anyone "SHOULD" be playing anything for reasons other than the personal reasons they have. 

Stealth is getting a nerf; that's what people have been calling for ages. It's hard to argue against this move by Anet to make this change. At least we know it's a direction Anet is willing to take on this topic and likely one they are willing to push harder if it continues to be a problem.

To be fair to you, I suspect the only reason they are making this change is because of the role Spector has and much less because people don't like stealth. 

Could they not just nerf shadow arts?

If you take SA, the skills will be 32 and 40secs, after the nerfs. *normal training 

 

Still viable for SA users, but uh....what about deadly art users?

These skills are kittening whack then, wtf.....

Literally they should go for shadowarts, but this is a push into using it.

 

You are probably right, they want to sell spectre

 

Edit....

 

You SHOULD HAVE to make a class choice to perform certain roles.

Why 9 professions if all are going to be the same one day?

Ridiculous 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Crab Fear.1624