Saint Dodge and Eternity’s Requiem desperately need nerfs

[Yerlock.4678]

I know I’m stating the obvious but these two abilities were overturned in beta and are still overturned. Please fix this as it’s overshadowing everything else in the game.

 

seriously vindi is just a carpet bomb spec with way too much sustain and dps. 

[Kayberz.5346]

Funny how everyone was claiming that vindicator sucked during the betas and herald was still going to be the meta spec.

I literally called this within an hour of the first vindicator beta.

From the very first beta i put together the exact same build everyone is playing right now within 20 mins of experimenting and within like 3 games i came to the exact same conclusion, that the barrier dodge and the gs 5 skill were way overtuned and if left in that state would make this spec not only meta, but oppressive 

I was 1vxing people with ease and pumping out like 300k+ damage AND healing minimum each game. But people kept arguing that it was bad....

Edited March 14, 2022 by Kayberz.5346

[coro.3176]

I really get the feeling the devs are just letting these especs play for a few weeks so they can get some data about how to do skill splits. Why pay testers when you can just let the players suffer for weeks/months/years instead?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

48 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Funny how everyone was claiming that vindicator sucked during the betas and herald was still going to be the meta spec.

I literally called this within an hour of the first vindicator beta.

From my experience everywhere in wvw and pvp, people knew from the getgo after some hours on Vindi that it would be the best class in the expac on release. 

 

Harbinger would be a close second from first beta, then it was nerfed, but still ended up strong. However spot 2 now goes to Specter which people also saw coming in my case. 

 

Simply put, the last beta was flavor and the big walls of feedback were nothing to anet, they simply went over the bug threads. 

[ArthurDent.9538]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

From my experience everywhere in wvw and pvp, people knew from the getgo after some hours on Vindi that it would be the best class in the expac on release. 

 

Harbinger would be a close second from first beta, then it was nerfed, but still ended up strong. However spot 2 now goes to Specter which people also saw coming in my case. 

 

Simply put, the last beta was flavor and the big walls of feedback were nothing to anet, they simply went over the bug threads. 

My perspective has generally been that gs5 and saint shield were inevitably going to be gutted because they are very strong at which point you are stuck with gs just being a slow heavily telegraphed weapon with minimal utility and average damage, a single dodge that costs twice as much as a normal dodge (remember how much mirage was crippled by having 1 dodge? And theirs still only costs 50 endurance while having more other ways to avoid damage like distortion, stealth, etc.), a very underwhelming trait line, and a legend which while fun and not bad is quite clunky and is generally outclassed by core legends. Its give and take on the strengths and weaknesses and vindicator definitely has some big weaknesses and will struggle immensely without some big strengths.

[myun.6395]

I'd rather have a bunker meta tbh, than fighting those build that land a CC and literally press 1 or 2 buttons at best and oneshot you.

 

People will say: "Just stunbreak1!1!1!".

Yeah, unfortunately if you get dwarf tethered taunted, stunbreak seems useless and you are going to hit at least 75% of gs5 if not 100% regardless. 

 

Also harbinger gravity well is stupid, unless you have teleport you are done.

 

I don't care if there will be bunker mechanists or maybe in future bunker catalysts, you can simply ignore them, outrotate them and they become useless. Not like vindi who literally has every single role in the gamemode.

 

 

[Guirssane.7082]

Just keep ur dodge for GS 5 if ur dueling him, ez win :d

[Tulkas.2576]

The kitten thing is that if GS5 and saint dodge get gutted then you may as well be playing core rev unless you’re playing alliance stance support.
Without Saint Dodge, Vindi needs to go staff/GS, but if GS5 is worse than Sw4 then you’re better off with Sw/Sw and Staff, but then Devastation and Retribution trait lines are both better than Vindicator traits, so you may as well drop vindicator. 
 

It needs some numbers tuned for sure, but it needs to either keep the tankiness or it needs to do big damage. If both get hammered then the spec is dead. 

[Catchyfx.5768]

3 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

My perspective has generally been that gs5 and saint shield were inevitably going to be gutted because they are very strong at which point you are stuck with gs just being a slow heavily telegraphed weapon with minimal utility and average damage, a single dodge that costs twice as much as a normal dodge (remember how much mirage was crippled by having 1 dodge? And theirs still only costs 50 endurance while having more other ways to avoid damage like distortion, stealth, etc.), a very underwhelming trait line, and a legend which while fun and not bad is quite clunky and is generally outclassed by core legends. Its give and take on the strengths and weaknesses and vindicator definitely has some big weaknesses and will struggle immensely without some big strengths.

Thats the reason why to play it right now, afrer nerfs(justified) it will be pve spec. With little to offer, and we will go to good ol' herald

[Shiyo.3578]

6 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

I really get the feeling the devs are just letting these especs play for a few weeks so they can get some data about how to do skill splits. Why pay testers when you can just let the players suffer for weeks/months/years instead?

Try 6 months

[Buran.3796]

6 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Funny how everyone was claiming that vindicator sucked during the betas and herald was still going to be the meta spec.

I literally called this within an hour of the first vindicator beta.

  Conformed teams won't run Vindi. They will need the superior mobility of the Thief, a support Guardian an the cc of the Necro. That leaves out to stack two Vindis, but Vindicator loses vs Herald, Holo  and other classes in 1 v1 and is way more vulnerable to cc (the breakstun from Jalis is slow and costs 40 energy).

   Vindi is going to be a popular choice in ranked because mixes the burst from DH with the teamfigh support from the barriers from the Scourge, but is also a lot easier to focus. But in MATs as will happen in 12 days I doubt it would replace Herald, at all.

   By the way, I'm not opposed to nerfs; cut the damage and revert the increase of endurance cost for the Saint so we can have a bunker or bruiser (the class never had a good one).

Edited March 15, 2022 by Buran.3796

[ArthurDent.9538]

2 hours ago, Catchyfx.5768 said:

Thats the reason why to play it right now, afrer nerfs(justified) it will be pve spec. With little to offer, and we will go to good ol' herald

If its going to be pve espec that's pretty bas as it stands its an easy top 5 worst pve especs across all classes/exansions.

[Math.5123]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Conformed teams won't run Vindi. They will need the superior mobility of the Thief, a support Guardian an the cc of the Necro. That leaves out to stack two Vindis, but Vindicator loses vs Herald, Holo  and other classes in 1 v1 and is way more vulnerable to cc (the breakstun from Jalis is slow and costs 40 energy).

   Vindi is going to be a popular choice in ranked because mixes the burst from DH with the teamfigh support from the barriers from the Scourge, but is also a lot easier to focus. But in MATs as will happen in 12 days I doubt it would replace Herald, at all.

   By the way, I'm not opposed to nerfs; cut the damage and revert the increase of endurance cost for the Saint so we can have a bunker or bruiser (the class never had a good one).

I would be very surprised if a lot of teams ran less than two of them. I guess we'll see in the upcoming showmatches.

[ArthurDent.9538]

Now we are going to see if I'm correct or not because both skills got absolutely gutted. I don't see vindicator being competitive anymore, but I might be wrong.

[Ashgar.3024]

Ayy you guys got what you wanted. 

Mostly salty about the GS5 nerf, the Saint Dodge one was warranted. Its not the easiest skill to get value out of vs decent players and doing so was required to land downs while in GS as the rest of the kit is mostly just slow, long-winded cleaves. So it means Vindicator is locked playing GS + S/S forever as Shiro+Jallis if they have a healbot glued to them or Jallis+Alliance if they don't (incoming whine threads about Tree Song because people don't understand a spec with a butchered dodge mechanic and 0 stealth/mobility needs sustain to survive) and still want to have sustained pressure in Teamfights.

People still gonna run Saint Dodge anyway because the other 2 are completely useless vs anyone with a pulse, outside maybe duo situations if you partner with someone who can lockdown a target, something Vindicator cannot do on its own.

Also really confused how Harbinger dodged the nerfbat but hey, Anet being "slightly" biased towards Necro isn't exactly new.

If i cared more about rating than having fun i know what i'd play right now lol.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Ashgar.3024]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Now we are going to see if I'm correct or not because both skills got absolutely gutted. I don't see vindicator being competitive anymore, but I might be wrong.

 

Meh, still gonna play it. It just flows so much better than Herald to me and worst case its going to end up being a Herald clone with better Team Fighting but no Swiftness if i end up giving up on GS.

[Tulkas.2576]

Well I’m glad I jumped back on herald last night and realized how much I missed the way it plays. 
 

not to mention I wrecked any vindicators I came across, they were very easy to counter, I didn’t realize how easy GS5 was to avoid when you have 2 dodges LOL. I was used to fighting Vindicator as a Vindicator and having one dodge makes GS5 a real kitten to fight against. 
 

The changes seem fair enough to me, but I don’t think any whining about vindi will be warranted anymore

[Ashgar.3024]

1 minute ago, Tulkas.2576 said:

I didn’t realize how easy GS5 was to avoid when you have 2 dodges LOL

No kidding lol.

 

On Daredevil they can't even touch me.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

54 minutes ago, Tulkas.2576 said:

Well I’m glad I jumped back on herald last night and realized how much I missed the way it plays. 
 

not to mention I wrecked any vindicators I came across, they were very easy to counter, I didn’t realize how easy GS5 was to avoid when you have 2 dodges LOL. I was used to fighting Vindicator as a Vindicator and having one dodge makes GS5 a real kitten to fight against. 
 

The changes seem fair enough to me, but I don’t think any whining about vindi will be warranted anymore

It's easy to avoid on anything. Especially now. The skill needed minor damage tweaks, but the nerf it got was so heavy handed that it's pretty obvious they are pandering to the lesser skilled crowd that thinks they should be able to facetank everything and ignore gigantic obvious circles forming around them.

Saints shield nerf was very well deserved though. F**k that trait.

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Buran.3796]

18 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

I would be very surprised if a lot of teams ran less than two of them. I guess we'll see in the upcoming showmatches.

   Given the new balance changes, I will surprised if a single Vindicator is found in the comformed teams at this MAT. I known that it will be a special PvP event casted this weekend by Mighty Teapot this weekend involving the top 7 teams from US and EU, but I don't known if will be played only with the new specs or at free will. If all specs are allowed, any Vindicator will be eated alive: no stackable dodges, 100 endurance units x dodge, Eternity's Requiem damage halved and barrier and health usueless if you're not running a support amulet = dead on arrival.

   Told you Vindi had 0 chances of becoming meta BEFORE the nerfs. Now is just a ballast in any team.

[Aza.2105]

On 3/14/2022 at 2:12 PM, Kayberz.5346 said:

Funny how everyone was claiming that vindicator sucked during the betas and herald was still going to be the meta spec.

I literally called this within an hour of the first vindicator beta.

From the very first beta i put together the exact same build everyone is playing right now within 20 mins of experimenting and within like 3 games i came to the exact same conclusion, that the barrier dodge and the gs 5 skill were way overtuned and if left in that state would make this spec not only meta, but oppressive 

I was 1vxing people with ease and pumping out like 300k+ damage AND healing minimum each game. But people kept arguing that it was bad....

Most players are followers, they don't experiment. 

[Math.5123]

5 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Given the new balance changes, I will surprised if a single Vindicator is found in the comformed teams at this MAT. I known that it will be a special PvP event casted this weekend by Mighty Teapot this weekend involving the top 7 teams from US and EU, but I don't known if will be played only with the new specs or at free will. If all specs are allowed, any Vindicator will be eated alive: no stackable dodges, 100 endurance units x dodge, Eternity's Requiem damage halved and barrier and health usueless if you're not running a support amulet = dead on arrival.

   Told you Vindi had 0 chances of becoming meta BEFORE the nerfs. Now is just a ballast in any team.

Nerfing the big hitter by 42% damage and basically halving the sustain of the dodge, I guess we'll see. Without the nerfs it's honestly dishonest to call the class weak. Either that or delusional. 

The nerfs were extremely warranted, maybe not to this degree. But we'll have to wait and see I guess. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Math.5123

[Shao.7236]

On 3/15/2022 at 11:49 PM, Math.5123 said:

Nerfing the big hitter by 42% damage and basically halving the sustain of the dodge, I guess we'll see. Without the nerfs it's honestly dishonest to call the class weak. Either that or delusional. 

The nerfs were extremely warranted, maybe not to this degree. But we'll have to wait and see I guess. 

It was warranted, by default Revenant has plenty to work with and the fact you had the equivalent of Sand Flare in an evade was pretty stupid, Eternity Requiem was a plain better Meteor Shower with guaranteed targets that dealt way more damage per hit, never in anyone's time you'd see a Staff Ele deal 15k damage to someone even with full glass stats.

 

Vindicator has several ways to have endurance/sustain by default, it doesn't lack the ability to survive in the slightest.

 

Alliance you have endurance given playing the skills.

 

With Shiro you favor power damage with purely active endurance.

 

With Jalis you have passive Vigor with better Endurance Regen with Stab access.

 

With properly fixed Mallyx(Because it's been dead since Poison can't be countered) you'd tank condi pressure with ease.

 

With Ventari you got way more sustain/utility but still have access to Stab with Archemorous.

 

By mixing core legends you favor either sustain or damage more.

[Ashgar.3024]

Its still playable, been having fun with it. Def no room for anyone to cry about it anymore though.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Ashgar.3024]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

With properly fixed Mallyx(Because it's been dead since Poison can't be countered) you'd tank condi pressure with ease.

 

With Ventari you got way more sustain/utility but still have access to Stab with Archemorous.

 

Neither of these options really work. Nothing in the Vindicator kit supports Condis so Mallyx is useless, even to counter condis you're better off running Retribution traits that extend and buffs Resolution and run Jallis and/or cleanse yourself with Tree Song.

 

Honestly Archemerous' abilities having some of their damage budget wasted on Burning/Torment feels like a crappy oversight. Vindicator isn't a Condi spec, its Power/Support. Its not like it can sustain might the same way Herald does which makes the condis on Glint's signets do something. 

 

Ventari Support Vindicator technically could work but its so bad/clunky, why would you ever use that when Core Guard and Tempest exist?

 

Edit : This is all from an SPvP and the amulets available there PoV btw, i think in  WvW using something like Celestial Vindicator might work for roaming pretty well.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Ashgar.3024