Why are basic group features locked behind a 300g + forced WvW participation purchase?

[Shiyo.3578]

300g + 250 marks of honor for BASIC MMO group features from like..Everquest 1.

How do you expect your game to get new players or grow when you do things like this?

[mythical.6315]

Why is it important for new players to lead squads?

Edited April 3, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Khisanth.2948]

It doesn't require WvW unless you decided to spend all the Badges you got from achievements on something else.

You 100 at 100 AP, another 100 at 500 and 200 at 1000 AP. That 400 badges and you only need 250 for the tag. It is probably a good thing if someone actually has to learn a bit of the game before trying to lead.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

You can make a squad without commander tags, though. Up to 10 people, for free. That's a 100% increase from when core GW2 came out!

[Danikat.8537]

You only need a commander tag to lead a 50-man squad. 5-person parties and 10-person squads can be created without a tag and anyone can join any group without one.

Anyone who owns an expansion and has at least 1 level 80 character can also get a mentor tag above their head and on the map by training the first tier of the Pact Commander mastery track. It doesn't allow you to form a squad (and so doesn't include the other tools like the squad markers and messages) but otherwise it's similar to the commander tag in that it shows your location to anyone on the map, making it easier for them to find and follow you.

I think commander tags are intentionally gated to discourage new players who consider 300g and 250 badges of honour an impossible barrier from trying to lead 50-person groups. If you're commanding a squad, even for an open-world event, other players will expect you to know what to do and to be able to communicate it to the rest of the squad and it's unlikely a new player will be able to do that effectively. Of course not all events need that level of coordination, but that means they don't need a commander at all.

You don't have to raise all the gold yourself. Early on a lot of guilds clubbed together to buy commander tags for the leader or another member who would be leading guild activities. (At the time commander tags only cost 100g, but gold was a lot harder to get.) But there are ways for an experienced or long-term player to get 300g by themselves in a reasonable period of time. You do have to get the badges of honour yourself because they're account bound, but they're quite quick to get from WvW (which is one of the main places commander tags are needed) and as mentioned you can also get them from achievement chests. Either way I think the idea is you'll almost certainly have played content which needs a commander tag - and therefore learned how to use it - by the time you're able to unlock it.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

You've been around for 5 or more years; what's changed?

[mythical.6315]

36 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

You've been around for 5 or more years; what's changed?

 

They now want a commanders tag but not at the current price.

[Shiyo.3578]

2 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Why is it important for new players to lead squads?

It's important for any player. You don't need to pay money for basic ready check/player movement/party organization/ground markers in any other game.

For a self-proclaimed "Casual MMO", this game is very uninviting to new players.

1 hour ago, mythical.6315 said:

They now want a commanders tag but not at the current price.

Huh? I have the tag.

  

1 hour ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I think commander tags are intentionally gated to discourage new players who consider 300g and 250 badges of honour an impossible barrier from trying to lead 50-person groups. If you're commanding a squad, even for an open-world event, other players will expect you to know what to do and to be able to communicate it to the rest of the squad and it's unlikely a new player will be able to do that effectively. Of course not all events need that level of coordination, but that means they don't need a commander at all.

You don't have to raise all the gold yourself. Early on a lot of guilds clubbed together to buy commander tags for the leader or another member who would be leading guild activities. (At the time commander tags only cost 100g, but gold was a lot harder to get.) But there are ways for an experienced or long-term player to get 300g by themselves in a reasonable period of time. You do have to get the badges of honour yourself because they're account bound, but they're quite quick to get from WvW (which is one of the main places commander tags are needed) and as mentioned you can also get them from achievement chests. Either way I think the idea is you'll almost certainly have played content which needs a commander tag - and therefore learned how to use it - by the time you're able to unlock it.

No other MMO on the planet gatekeeps basic grouping features. They're also not self-proclaimed as a "Casual MMO" like this game, constantly does.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

You've been around for 5 or more years; what's changed?

I can tell what's not changed. Not having 300 gold.

But I suppose that doesn't really matter. Also, mentor tags are free.

Edited April 4, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Shiyo.3578]

19 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I can tell what's not changed. Not having 300 gold.

But I suppose that doesn't really matter. Also, mentor tags are free.

Mentors tags don't have:

• Ready check
• Ability to kick people on demand without a vote
• Ability to move subgroups/lock subgroups
• Ground target markers
• Many more I forget

As I said, BASIC grouping features are locked behind 300g + WvW.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Fortunately, Guild Wars 2 is not every other game.   Also, I don't really see the 'game' professing to be so very 'casual' all the time.  That's something that the playerbase bandies around as if it is fact. 

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

It's important for any player. You don't need to pay money for basic ready check/player movement/party organization/ground markers in any other game.

For a self-proclaimed "Casual MMO", this game is very uninviting to new players.

 

Again.  Why would a NEW player need this?

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Mentors tags don't have:

• Ready check
• Ability to kick people on demand without a vote
• Ability to move subgroups/lock subgroups
• Ground target markers
• Many more I forget

As I said, BASIC grouping features are locked behind 300g + WvW.

Yes I absolutely need to kick people, put them in subgroups, and draw colors to tackle the next skill point. For the causal content in the game a tag of any kind is more than sufficient.

The basic grouping feature is known as a party. Map commanding is not a "basic grouping feature" except in raids.

Commander tags should have a small amount of gatekeeping because of the powers involved. It's not exactly a new player feature to begin with.

I certainly would not join any squad made by someone that doesn't really understand that anyways. So no loss.

Edited April 4, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Zephire.8049]

I'm not sure I would trust a new player with organizing sub groups what with how many class-specific buffs, general buffs, and who gives them out one needs to know. A commander tag (as opposed to a mentor tag) implies to everyone else that the person with the tag has a degree of knowledge of classes and/or the event beyond what a new player would have. It's not always true but there's less of a chance that someone will have to teach the tag how to optimize a squad.

People already complain about people with commander tags not knowing everything and new players not only would make that worse, it would expose new players to harassment they didn't expect. 300g is a hurdle but also a safe guard to spare new players from that specific type of harassment before they have a better grasp of the game and are invested enough to not quit outright.

That said, I do think mentor tags and party leaders need some more versatility. Drawing on the map and pings only go so far, especially if you're trying to communicate a lot of information without the aid of an external program like Discord.

[Alik.9651]

obviously we have a conflict between the definition of "basic" 🤔

[bluberblasen.9684]

For years it was 100 ( but only for one character) Later they changed it to account bond and increased the cost to 300.

 

I got mine for 100 gold. 💪😘

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

7 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Mentors tags don't have:

• Ready check
• Ability to kick people on demand without a vote
• Ability to move subgroups/lock subgroups
• Ground target markers
• Many more I forget

As I said, BASIC grouping features are locked behind 300g + WvW.

I haven't used any of those outside Raids and Strikes yet.

[Hesione.9412]

8 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Mentors tags don't have:

• Ready check
• Ability to kick people on demand without a vote
• Ability to move subgroups/lock subgroups
• Ground target markers
• Many more I forget

As I said, BASIC grouping features are locked behind 300g + WvW.

How are these basic grouping features? I have a comm tag and a lot of time I throw up a mentor tag as the basic thing I want is to people to see me on a map so they can come to me.

 

Given I've stopped doing other PvE commanding, pretty much I use a comm tag now for a map meta, or for a bounty train.

 

For a ready check, I've only had that used on guild missions and raids/strike missions. For party-stuff like fractals, I'm used to people saying "r" or "rdy". I've found that if I type that, others type it too. Party chat is also useful for "brb" and so forth.

 

I've never kicked someone out of a squad except when I've had another squad mass-merge on mine, that were all in a completely different map (no, the DWC squad does not want a Silverwastes squad mass-merging). That was fun. Not.

 

For ground target markers, I typically use them to mark where reward chests are, and where the bounty is going to spawn. However, I also say in map chat "bounty on [colour] tag" so others not in squad can join in. This often happens.

 

Perhaps I am missing the context of your request. What content are you wanting this for?

[Danikat.8537]

9 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

 No other MMO on the planet gatekeeps basic grouping features. They're also not self-proclaimed as a "Casual MMO" like this game, constantly does.

Based on the ones I've played other MMOs don't gate those features because they don't have them at all. Elder Scrolls Online for example (the other MMO I currently play) only allows for 4-player or 12-player groups, and while they do have a leader all that means is they get a different shape marker over their head and scaling content scales to their level rather than anyone else in the group. There's nothing like the extra functions commanders get in GW2.

And just like other games those basic grouping tools are available to everyone in GW2. Anyone, even a level 2 character on a free-to-play account can create 5-person or 10-person groups. You only need a commander tag if you want the advanced functions only needed for some end-game activities which new players are not going to be leading.

[Taclism.2406]

OP is right tho. 
Forum keeps telling people "if you dont like a strike / raid group, form your own"
Well OP seemingly did, and when you do, you're not given the tools to draw / split buffs in subs. Thats just a fact.
You technically dont NEED it to beat bosses, but it makes grouping, strat briefs and everything that much easier to manage and you're in denial if you cant admit that.

Reducing the total cost of commander would make the problem of unexperienced comms in wvw worse, but splitting the commander tag into 2 seperate parts that FIRST lets you draw / readycheck / put markers for 50-100g, then a second upgrade that gives you the ability to group up to 50 & commander logo  for the remaining 200-250g could make a LOT of players happy.
Probably would reduce the amount of strikes / raid sales too, since less active players will have more chance / tools to try for themselves

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Rasimir.6239]

15 minutes ago, Taclism.2406 said:

You technically dont NEED it to beat bosses, but it makes grouping, strat briefs and everything that much easier to manage

Or you could just talk to people. Everyoney can move themselves into sub groups even in leaderless squads, everyone can indicate in chat whether they're ready or not, everyone can mark the next target if that is needed. If you feel the need to "manage" your fellow players, maybe questioning your view of your fellow players and how you interact and communicate with them is the way to go.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Rasimir.6239

[Taclism.2406]

Yeah thats my point exactly. EASIER to manage but not a NEED.

You COULD talk for 15+ minutes, hope people know how to move themselves in subs or tell them which sub they'd move in, hope everyone is patient enough - because following an active chat and prepping a team is worse as far as multitasking goes
Or you could use the convenience of commanders tags : Put yourself and every confirmed role in sub 2-3, leaving new people that join and need to be sorted out in sub1, as they announce their roles while joining, sort everything out in 2mins top.

I feel the need to "manage" because I dont like wasting time. If idle chatter isnt wasted time to you, good for you mate

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

1 hour ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Yeah thats my point exactly. EASIER to manage but not a NEED.

You COULD talk for 15+ minutes, hope people know how to move themselves in subs or tell them which sub they'd move in, hope everyone is patient enough - because following an active chat and prepping a team is worse as far as multitasking goes
Or you could use the convenience of commanders tags : Put yourself and every confirmed role in sub 2-3, leaving new people that join and need to be sorted out in sub1, as they announce their roles while joining, sort everything out in 2mins top.

I feel the need to "manage" because I dont like wasting time. If idle chatter isnt wasted time to you, good for you mate

It's been stated the Commander Tags are needed for Strikes and Raids. How many 'subs' are needed in 10-player groups?  How small are these 'subs'?

[Fuchslein.8639]

But there is a point. Not for new players, but for instanced content. Sure you could rely on the people who join, but do this a few times and see how patience you are.

I said this in another thread about this topic, the price for a Tag is ridiculous and say's nothing about the people who have it. I seen so many brain-afk comms in my gw2 time.

Commie should not taken place behind a price Tag but behind a achievment. Sure, this also will say nothing about the people, but it will be more accessible. And i don't see whats bad about this.

And i say this as someone who has a Tag. And i'am thankfull for it, because i'm not that patience for people asking them to do this and this. Because i know how lots of people after joining a group dmsostly ignore the Chat, or just don't know what to do even after explaining multiple times, are out of experience. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Fuchslein.8639]

4 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

It's been stated the Commander Tags are needed for Strikes and Raids. How many 'subs' are needed in 10-player groups?  How small are these 'subs'?

There are normally two sub-groups for raids and strikes, so that everyone get its buff. But i know the hassle asking people to move themself. Most don't even read the Chat.