The reason untamed "sucks"

[Lazze.9870]

On 4/18/2022 at 6:14 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

use a F2, get a trait off, or use a CC--that isn't really playing with the pet at all.  That's having another utility slot.

As opposed to core where you abuse CCs and traits on swap, the rest pretty much acting as dot damage unless you use stuff like drake tail swipe burst (which is much less usefull when not fighting on points)?

Relatively speaking, soulbeast is playing just as much with the pet as core is. That's the best it's going to be, and that's really the bottom line here.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

On 4/18/2022 at 2:47 PM, Eurantien.4632 said:

Untamed is the best iteration of ranger for PvP so far.

The best iteration for you, maybe. I personally think sPvP is where it shines the most, it adds tools that ranger was missing. The port is huge. But Soulbeast and druid were monsters in sPvP at their heights.

I haven't followed ATs for a bit, but I assume Untamed sees close to zero play.

Soulbeast is the best iteration of ranger across all three game modes. From an objective point of view, that's arguably more correct given its meta position in all three game modes.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:55 AM, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

I honestly wish both untamed and spellbreaker weren't 'pvp specs'- they're really the only 2. If there were more across all professions it might sit better with me, but even during my 2 years of playing prior to EoD spellbreaker being a 'pvp spec' never sat well with me.

God forbid one out of four specs (core included) is tailored more towards the other two game modes. Spellbreaker sat very well with people in PvP and WvW, warrior has relied on that spec in WvW ever since it came out.

Yet it's more important for guys like you to have four (core included) specs all topped up for PvE.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

As opposed to core where you abuse CCs and traits on swap, the rest pretty much acting as dot damage unless you use stuff like drake tail swipe burst (which is much less usefull when not fighting on points)?

Relatively speaking, soulbeast is playing just as much with the pet as core is. That's the best it's going to be, and that's really the bottom line here.

 

You mention core, but seem to forget that it was very pet centric before HoT as the game worked much differently.  Things like wolf fear actually worked so you had KD on swap + fear potential; jaguar stealth actually worked so you could stealth it and send it on walls or after people at long distance, etc.

Abusing CC or traits on swap is more of a druid and beyond thing, as the pet became less and less relevant.  To the point to where we have soulbeast where in merged state you obviously don't have to worry about 'attack my target' or 'return to me', which are pretty huge for pet control.

Untamed reversing course on this is what I think is throwing most people, as now you have more control over AI then we've ever had--even all the way back to core-only days.  Which would be great and all if half the pets were responsive / didn't have F2's tailored for a game without superspeed spam.  

[Cytoplasma.8216]

Untamed is sucks because arena wants that. 

Zero feedback. 

 

[Dodgy Muppet.9082]

lmao. "untamed sucks" and "Untamed is OP" 2 posts away from each other on the front page. 

[Teratus.2859]

I wouldn't agree that Untamed strays from Rangers identity.. if anything Untamed is by far thee most Ranger of Elite Spec's that Ranger has access too.

Untamed is quite literally derived from Beastmastery and Nature Magic and is the only spec where there is a mechanical focus on both Ranger and Pet working together.

Druid was more of a pure Nature Magic healer and Soul Beast cannibalized the pet aspect of Ranger.. in some ways literally to make the Ranger stronger.

Untamed most certainly caters to Ranger's core identity a lot more than the other two specs do.

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Dodgy Muppet.9082 said:

lmao. "untamed sucks" and "Untamed is OP" 2 posts away from each other on the front page. 

that is because Untamed is very strong in SPVP Enviroments, however very bad in PvE enviroments, its quite usual to see different elites be stronger in different areas, Some people are fine with that existing, some people think its unacceptable that its considered "fine" even though it brings nothing to a PvE Enviroment.

but this isnt new, theres TONS of speccs that just arent useful in PvP enviroments due to PvE Design or balancing.

- Druid

- Berserker

- Chronomancer

- Firebrand

- Scourge

have all after time been gutted completely because their mechanics are too strong in PvP but highly demanded in PvE Enviroments and the PvP Capability was executed for the sake of PvE Content effectively, ofcoruse to stack thsi game has more PvE Players then PvP so the uprise in this event ofcourse will be louder.

but tbh untamed never was going to

they established their plan to give Ranger Alacrity access at core, so they couldnt fix that onto Untamed, if they gave untamed Quickness their Recreating Quickness+Alacrity chrono with it, so its become a Power DPS, so it was never going to fill a Additional role for Ranger realistically.

when u put something like alacrity at core. your Instagating role compression dramatically if ur then going to throw More needed boons onto the specc aswell.

[Amadeus.5687]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:10 PM, Lazze.9870 said:

 

I haven't followed ATs for a bit, but I assume Untamed sees close to zero play.

 

A bit late to the topic, but så since its still going I feel like its worth pointing out that a team with a Untamed actaully where the ones to win the last EU AT.

But besides that er did not see much play, but maybe the upcoming AT will have more.

[Puck.3697]

17 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

A bit late to the topic, but så since its still going I feel like its worth pointing out that a team with a Untamed actaully where the ones to win the last EU AT.

But besides that er did not see much play, but maybe the upcoming AT will have more.

Tbh. the reason why it saw little EU AT use is because it does the same job as Willbender but Willbender does it easier.

Unless they nerf willbender Untamed wont see more play not because it isnt strong. but because simply too many things atm is playing for same spot

[Lazze.9870]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:29 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

You mention core, but seem to forget that it was very pet centric before HoT as the game worked much differently.  Things like wolf fear actually worked so you had KD on swap + fear potential; jaguar stealth actually worked so you could stealth it and send it on walls or after people at long distance, etc.

"Very pet centric". Heh. It has never been pet centric in that sense. The game itself was slower and less power crept, which made it easier for an already outdated mechanic. Remember how the beastmastery trait line was completely ignored after they moved quickness on pet swap from adept to GM tier? That's how pet centric it was. Trait choices have always been about strengthening the ranger, not the pet.

The game is 10 years old an you're refering to what was mildly relevant in its first three years, stuff that still heavily relied on the pet's F2s and CCs. The use of the wolf is LITERALLY what I was talking about. Pure CC abuse. It would still be relevant if not for power creep or anet's neglect of core pets. In fact, I still use it from time to time, even on soulbeast for various condi or hybrid roaming builds.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh. the reason why it saw little EU AT use is because it does the same job as Willbender but Willbender does it easier.

Speaks volume about how greatly designed this bruiser spec was when it competes for a spot with the zoom zoom spec while still using gs/lb and hinging on the port cantrip to stay relevant.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[Lazze.9870]

On 5/8/2022 at 12:36 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

but this isnt new, theres TONS of speccs that just arent useful in PvP enviroments due to PvE Design or balancing.

All of the specs you mentioned except druid and berserker are 100 % meta for large scale wvw, two of which are mandatory.

WvW is THE mode that untamed should have performed well in. But instead of designing it in a way that would make it shine in both pvp and wvw like spellbreaker, they made it pretty much a pvp only spec.

You had the off-meta druid gs/staff remorseless build, stripped away the druid part and gave it a port, no pet penalties and some other useful utilities that elevated it to a good build.  That's essentially how untamed is played in pvp.

[Puck.3697]

7 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said:

All of the specs you mentioned except druid and berserker are 100 % meta for large scale wvw, two of which are mandatory.

WvW is THE mode that untamed should have performed well in. But instead of designing it in a way that would make it shine in both pvp and wvw like spellbreaker, they made it pretty much a pvp only spec.

You had the off-meta druid gs/staff remorseless build, stripped away the druid part and gave it a port, no pet penalties and some other useful utilities that elevated it to a good build.  That's essentially how untamed is played in pvp.

That's why i specified pvp. I'm aware alot more can work in large scale. 

Untamed is actually very strong, rhe issue is willbender and harbinger simply do its job easier. And yeah sadly having a pet inheritly makes it bad in wvwvw. 

My point was however, the issue with specs being great at one mode and terrible at another has existed since the beginning and sadly doesn't look like its going anywhere. 

Untamed is alot of fun in spvp. However. 

Untamed also feels like the rework core should have gotten. Not a new elite spec. They could of done something other then replacing base ranger with the elite realistically. 

[Amadeus.5687]

15 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh. the reason why it saw little EU AT use is because it does the same job as Willbender but Willbender does it easier.

Unless they nerf willbender Untamed wont see more play not because it isnt strong. but because simply too many things atm is playing for same spot

Maybe, I'm not so sure that's the complete picture tho.

The current Willbender and Untamed meta builds do both fill the role of a roaming damage deal, but you have more then one damage dealer on your team anyway. And Untamed trade more favorable against Harbringer which also sees a lot of play. 
The team that won the EU AT did bring both Willbender and Untamed and those two together nuked stuff.

I also think two other factos play in:
1. Ranger being out of the MAT meta since forever, so very few ranger players on the teams that play it.
2. Untamed being kinda a dark horse in sPvP last season. Untamed gotten a lot of hate from PvE players and WvW players (justified I might add), but most of the problem in suffers from in those two game modes does not apply in sPvP. But it gave it a bad rep and no one really played it. in EU Plat1/Plat 2 where I played last season I met all most no untamed players besides Boyce.
Where in the new season after the last MAT and a meta battle build people can copy have come up I see them pretty much every single game in Plat.

You might very well be right it won't see much play next MAT either, time will tell. But I'm pretty sure Untamed's potential in sPvP have only begun getting explored. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 5/11/2022 at 2:47 AM, Lazze.9870 said:

"Very pet centric". Heh. It has never been pet centric in that sense. The game itself was slower and less power crept, which made it easier for an already outdated mechanic. Remember how the beastmastery trait line was completely ignored after they moved quickness on pet swap from adept to GM tier? That's how pet centric it was. Trait choices have always been about strengthening the ranger, not the pet.

The game is 10 years old an you're refering to what was mildly relevant in its first three years, stuff that still heavily relied on the pet's F2s and CCs. The use of the wolf is LITERALLY what I was talking about. Pure CC abuse. It would still be relevant if not for power creep or anet's neglect of core pets. In fact, I still use it from time to time, even on soulbeast for various condi or hybrid roaming builds.

 

It's been like two weeks so had to go back and look to see what this even was about--think it has to do with soulbeast essentially removing the pet? 

Which ya it essentially does; comparing say untamed to soulbeast in terms of pet interaction is night and day.  For Core and Druid pet is no more than a CC now because the game moved on and pet damage got nerfed into oblivion.  

I disagree that the game naturally killed pet interactions, it was very specific targeting because of sPvP complaints and also in PvE devs that thought pets allowed you to solo too easily.  The rest compounded and we have what we have now--utter neglect to the point of the new pets freezing for 5 sec on swap and not one patch note for the past what, nearing three months?

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

It's been like two weeks so had to go back and look to see what this even was about--think it has to do with soulbeast essentially removing the pet? 

Which ya it essentially does; comparing say untamed to soulbeast in terms of pet interaction is night and day.  For Core and Druid pet is no more than a CC now because the game moved on and pet damage got nerfed into oblivion.  

I disagree that the game naturally killed pet interactions, it was very specific targeting because of sPvP complaints and also in PvE devs that thought pets allowed you to solo too easily.  The rest compounded and we have what we have now--utter neglect to the point of the new pets freezing for 5 sec on swap and not one patch note for the past what, nearing three months?

And that's not even mentioning the fact that most core pets are still bugged with quickness and/or alacrity, where they just don't function properly. Combine that with often redundant skills and pointlessly long cooldowns and a lot of pets are unviable in any mode of play.

[Mell.4873]

On 4/20/2022 at 2:38 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh. I think the problem is, untamed is rangers spellbreaker. It's built primarily for PvP. In a game where 80% of its audience only plays PvE. 

It does the PvP thing pretty well, I've seen some scarey untamed players in spvp but no one wants their new content to be only good in content they don't do. And quite rightly so. 

Although it does open world content pretty well, I've seen some videos of it and quite a few seem to say It can be insane at soloing challanges. 

- But yeah it's Pve damage is low. It has no unique boons it's other speccs can provide. It's another power DPS. 

- hammer feels weak in all game modes. 

And due to the above. 

It's F5 mechanic feels like nothing changes. 

I think personally F5 and hammer need reworking. It's fine for soulbeast and untamed to simultaneously exist. Because: 

It effectively says "do you want a pet or do u not want a pet" which expands the audience it can apply to. 

Ontop of that things such as open world content you want your pet. And untamed offers that without a DPS loss unlike soulbeast. 

Its just F5 and hammer is a let down imho. If they severely improve the conditions of those 2 things I think untamed could be a amazing specc. 

But we will see in June if Anet are going to do anything major concerning the EoD elites which didn't lift off aswell as others. 

 

Yeah good breakdown, I mean I only use Untamed in PvE for lazing farming with longbow + longbow barrage cycling. I use a similar build for WvW too but there it can destroy other players and have the super speed to get away.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Kaenaydar.5631]

I was a core ranger main for years i like Untamed i use a build longbow main and if i get up close swap to hammer. I so much like Untamed that i made Aurenes Weight hammer. Before EOD i made my first leggie weapon Pharus. I think we Untamed needs a buff but the class is still fun to play particularly now with pets autocast. Reason i hope we get a buff is i still get kicked from groups as soon as they see Untamed in t4 dailies. My build is Marksman Skirmish and Untamed now to push my crit chance to 100%. Sometimes if im feeling really flashy i rapid shot longbow then barrage swap to hammer do hammer 5 to enter combat unleash ranger for hammer ambush use all the skills swap back to longbow and keep fighting ranged. My friend who i do chill groups with often says i make Untamed look fun. The hammer is very useful when you need to do breakbars i have seen it break stuff often.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Kaenaydar.5631

[InsaneQR.7412]

Naa, it feels just bad to play because you have so many abbilities hidden behind a mode. Two weapon sets, two hammer forms, two unleashed forms, two pets, pet unleash form, activating an ambush etc.

Its just not streamlined on design and just feels weird or spammy to play.

The base is not bad. But its just a jumbled messed that needs a good portion of refinement to bring the spec together.

Edited September 23, 2022 by InsaneQR.7412
Typos

[Mell.4873]

Lol since May i have now taken a much deeper look at Untamed and Fervent Force is a powerhouse. Its like an engine to get all your other skill back quicker.

Its completely different to play than Soulbeast which has set-up rotations and amazing pay-offs. Rather Untamed is all about Weaving Stuns together with damage skills, this is alien to any Soulbeast Main.

The result is something truly Powerful, my Frost Trap alone accounts for 60% of my power damage since I'm taking it off cooldown every 5 seconds. Not to mention the almost permanent Stability uptime and by using Perilous Gift you can tank almost any encounter.
Throw on Spirits and you can take them off cooldown right away which mean massive group Alacrity. Not to mention the ability to group resurrect very often (120 cooldown means nothing with FF). Take "Guard" off-cooldown before the 6 seconds is up mean a stackable 33% damage reduction (with other Untamed players).

Edited September 22, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Just wanna throw this out there, having a pet or not has 0 to do whether a class fits the ranger theme. The original rangers of fantasy from the likes of lotr etc have no pets. Pets are just some flavor they added later, so slb is definitely as "ranger" as the rest lol.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Just wanna throw this out there, having a pet or not has 0 to do whether a class fits the ranger theme. The original rangers of fantasy from the likes of lotr etc have no pets. Pets are just some flavor they added later, so slb is definitely as "ranger" as the rest lol.

Yes and no. The GW2 interpretation of a ranger is fairly clearly pet-based, and Aragorn would probably be a Warrior in GW2 parlance (a warrior with survival skills, possibly Cooking or an elite specialisation that does not yet exist, but a warrior nonetheless). Soulbeast still carries the pet interaction, though, especially since you're not forced to permamerge.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

13 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

Naa, it feels just bad to play because you have so many abbilities hidden behund a mode. Two weapon sets, two hammer forms, two unleashed forms, two pets, pet unleash form, activating an ambush etc.

Its just not streamlined on design and just feels weird or spammy to play.

The base is not bad. But its just a jumbled messed that needs a good portion of refinement to bring the spec together.

Let's be honest- beyond Unnatural Traversal+GS2, Forest's Fortification (because that elite is busted and anet knows it), Fervent Force, and the Unleash Pet Teleport + Drake Tail Swipe, and some unleash ambushes, Untamed is pretty bad from a design standpoint. It could use more love to be more like the other elite specs in power, since the other elite specs aren't going to be toned down any time soon. 

[anduriell.6280]

17 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

The base is not bad. But its just a jumbled messed that needs a good portion of refinement to bring the spec together.

Rework, refinement will not fix the bag of cats that UnDeveloped is. 

And a new set of animations, with all the cantrips  being practically instant and no tells it must be a lot of fun playing against it.