Group Quickness for Warrior confirmed. [Merged]

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

Can we get "Banner of the Moa"?

 

Turn up to 5 enemies into birds for 6s.

 

I don't see why mesmers get to have all the fun 🥺

[Westenev.5289]

The trouble I see with this update is that if I turn up to a Strike with a harriers firebrand, I expect to be quickness healer support - it's  the most optimal path for my stats. But if everyone has access to op heals, quickness and might, it all goes to waste. This goes for all supports - what makes druid unique without base ranger curiosities like spirits/spotter? Should we be expected to invest in boon duration when anyone else, on classes/specs you don't know/understand, could poot out your boons at any time?

 

I don't think banners need to be changed, it just adds more headache and I don't wanna have to throw boon duration on my warrior who has tratitionally been berserker dps (with str runes I guess if I want might? xD)

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Westenev.5289

[DanAlcedo.3281]

55 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Can we get "Banner of the Moa"?

 

Turn up to 5 enemies into birds for 6s.

 

I don't see why mesmers get to have all the fun 🥺

If i can grill them with Condi Berzerker and get myself some spice moalegs?

Sure!

[Grand Marshal.4098]

How optimistic are you about this change guys? I don't want to sound like a doomer, but I think warrior will become utter trash, or theyll give it so much quickness to try and patch it up that it won't matter to non-warrior mains, like they do with tactics Bladesworn and defense is still in the state it's in.

[artharon.9276]

some youtubbers like mightyteapod is very optimistic, I think anet lost their minds. 

 

EVERYONE wanted to get rid of banners or wanted their bundles back for the sake of gameplay diversity and how's this a solution? this is like sellotape to a cut arteries. 

[anbujackson.9564]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The balance mechanism has always been to use 3/4 of the full DPS as the quickness/alac variant. See the article I linked above. Warrior without banner is a 37-38K DPS spec (and bladesworn has 37Kbenchmark  with banners) so a quickness warrior would still be around 28-30K similar to StM chrono or quick scrapper. 33K harbinger / cata / firebrand exist now (with the harbinger/catalyst needing bare minimum boon duration) but none of those have unique buffs and arguably firebrand is overtuned at the moment even after the mantra of solace and tome of justice changes since you only need ~25% boon duration but firebrand rune has +40% quickness. In addition to that catalyst is woefully unreliable due to 240 radius and needing people to be stationary in the jade sphere for 5 seconds.  

I highly doubt that quickness war will be near 30k. If you have to invest into concentration (which you should, anything else would be trash), you loose a lot of precision, plus the extra 50 from banners (exclusing base 100). Also you loose ferocity. So the 75% of 37k (28k max as bladesworn) wont add up probably. So either you have overtuned boon pulses or you need to pick them up to cast skills (like they used to work) which would equal in even less damage. I seriously hope its not the second option. Then again.. the first option would be no different to what we have now. 

Also 75% of 33k (berserker) would be 25k. You cant take the full dps as reference because you need to take banner dps in the first place. Same issues with precision and ferocity.

There is a reason why power quickness/alac provider are hardly played at all. And it will be even more condi favored then.

Also there is no telling if they remove the banner trait from discipline, so you are forced to drop more damage to get it back (tactics bladesworn aka mightsworn is like 30k? Dont see the build on snow crows anymore, is it dead? Anyway reduce that by 75% and you end up with 22,5k). 

Core abilities providing the strongest boons limits buffs to the specs in general, just like now when they provide unique buffs. But yeah... where else could they put that if all your elite specs are just melee dps.

Edited April 17, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Obtena.7952]

I hope people are not expecting they will be able to apply 5 man quickness buff with 100% uptime without concentration. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I hope people are not expecting they will be able to apply 5 man quickness buff with 100% uptime without concentration. 

Well maybe the banner trait will end up like the sphere trait of catalyst (which I am personally not a fan of).

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

How optimistic are you about this change guys? I don't want to sound like a doomer, but I think warrior will become utter trash, or theyll give it so much quickness to try and patch it up that it won't matter to non-warrior mains, like they do with tactics Bladesworn and defense is still in the state it's in.

My guess would be they want to make Boon Core Warrior a thing, but nobody is gonna use it because of better options and going boons (tactic) is too much of a dps loss.

 

[Infusion.7149]

37 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

I highly doubt that quickness war will be near 30k. If you have to invest into concentration (which you should, anything else would be trash), you loose a lot of precision, plus the extra 50 from banners (exclusing base 100). Also you loose ferocity. So the 75% of 37k (28k max as bladesworn) wont add up probably. So either you have overtuned boon pulses or you need to pick them up to cast skills (like they used to work) which would equal in even less damage. I seriously hope its not the second option. Then again.. the first option would be no different to what we have now. 

Also 75% of 33k (berserker) would be 25k. You cant take the full dps as reference because you need to take banner dps in the first place. Same issues with precision and ferocity.

There is a reason why power quickness/alac provider are hardly played at all. And it will be even more condi favored then.

Also there is no telling if they remove the banner trait from discipline, so you are forced to drop more damage to get it back (tactics bladesworn aka mightsworn is like 30k? Dont see the build on snow crows anymore, is it dead? Anyway reduce that by 75% and you end up with 22,5k). 

Core abilities providing the strongest boons limits buffs to the specs in general, just like now when they provide unique buffs. But yeah... where else could they put that if all your elite specs are just melee dps.

What do you mean berserker is 33k? power banner is 33K, condi banner is 34k... regardless they will be changing it in some fashion to meet the StM chrono / quick scrapper baseline or the catalyst quick harbinger levels (33k bare minimum boon duration), that I am sure of. Having played quickness scrapper from when it was first even possible (at ~26K DPS) to now as well as power alac when it was 22-25k benchmarks , I think benchmark DPS isn't the only thing you need to consider but how easy it is to attain said DPS.

see

Full DPS berserker without maces (axes+GS) is 38.7K , 75% of that is 29K in line or exceeding current StM chrono and quickness scrapper iterations in practice unless you run bare minimum boon duration. pDPS Bladesworn is at 39K.

Spoiler

 

Likewise it is more likely to be treated similar to alacrity mirage in terms of boon duration (11.2% boon duration on meta build which jumps to ~28% with regen uptime) since running banners inherently cuts into your damage similar to how staff on mirage is inherently lower damage unless you can abuse confusion. Quickness harbinger hovers around 20% boon duration , with 23% Boon duration including jade core 10 ; willbender meme alacrity is 0% boon duration if you can pull it off.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, artharon.9276 said:

some youtubbers like mightyteapod is very optimistic, I think anet lost their minds. 

 

Talked about this in the stream. He was very optimistic indeed. But then again he sees BsW as a good healer spec, which most probably means good gameplay, options and mechanics, cause he thinks people disliking the way it plays are not warrior mains and actually cringe lords. 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Talked about this in the stream. He was very optimistic indeed. But then again he sees BsW as a good healer spec, which most probably means good gameplay, options and mechanics, cause he thinks people disliking the way it plays are not warrior mains and actually cringe lords. 

It baffles me that he could think that. Maybe I'm the dumb one here, but I doubt that we'll be seeing many BS in the MATs, whether as support or otherwise. It's just not that good.

[felix.2386]

49 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

It baffles me that he could think that. Maybe I'm the dumb one here, but I doubt that we'll be seeing many BS in the MATs, whether as support or otherwise. It's just not that good.

dude is sponsored by anet and is tasked to bring positivity. he's just not going to rant and talk about any negative truth..

[artharon.9276]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Talked about this in the stream. He was very optimistic indeed. But then again he sees BsW as a good healer spec, which most probably means good gameplay, options and mechanics, cause he thinks people disliking the way it plays are not warrior mains and actually cringe lords. 

 

I understand his point, trying to encourage people to play all meaningful builds. Not sure how one can call a class boon support without giving them a defensive boon like protection, resolution aegis etc to share. Or to call it a healer without a simple thing like regen share, you know since bundle nerf warriors lost their ability to share regen and stability. 

Shout heals itself is another story. 

 

Calling people who forced to use the same skill buttons and watch the same animations for years due to lack of gameplay diversity "cringe lords" though, oh wow.  

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, felix.2386 said:

dude is sponsored by anet and is tasked to bring positivity. he's just not going to rant and talk about any negative truth..

Well, to be fair, he gives Anet a hard go when they do questionable things. He's not just a GW2 shill telling us how awesome everything is that they do. 

As for BsW being a heal spec someone mentioned ... I CAN see how someone would look at many of the elements of BsW and conclude it's has some high sustain potential without compromising offensive stats in PVE at least. I don't know about healing though. I don't think it's better at taking advantage of healing elements like MMR as SpB is. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

8 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

What do you mean berserker is 33k? power banner is 33K, condi banner is 34k... regardless they will be changing it in some fashion to meet the StM chrono / quick scrapper baseline or the catalyst quick harbinger levels (33k bare minimum boon duration), that I am sure of. Having played quickness scrapper from when it was first even possible (at ~26K DPS) to now as well as power alac when it was 22-25k benchmarks , I think benchmark DPS isn't the only thing you need to consider but how easy it is to attain said DPS.

see

Full DPS berserker without maces (axes+GS) is 38.7K , 75% of that is 29K in line or exceeding current StM chrono and quickness scrapper iterations in practice unless you run bare minimum boon duration. pDPS Bladesworn is at 39K.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Likewise it is more likely to be treated similar to alacrity mirage in terms of boon duration (11.2% boon duration on meta build which jumps to ~28% with regen uptime) since running banners inherently cuts into your damage similar to how staff on mirage is inherently lower damage unless you can abuse confusion. Quickness harbinger hovers around 20% boon duration , with 23% Boon duration including jade core 10 ; willbender meme alacrity is 0% boon duration if you can pull it off.

I know the benchmarks dont worry. You cant take the full dps version as base for your calculation because you have to take banners in the first place, so your base is 33/34k (and yes power bs is very easy to achieve, condi not so much). Its entirely possible that they change banners in such a way that you will barely need any boon duration yes. But what if you need more investment like alacrity spectre or alac renegade? Not to mention the possibility of trait switches (that would kill condi bs completely). 

Also you have to assume that its just passive application. No one knows if that will change.

In the end you have many factors where we simply dont know how they will play out.

Keep in mind that your options to build for concentration are fairly limited. Your rune is already needed for crit cap, some of your gear is already assassin. If you loose spotter in realistic scenarios next to your banner stats, you need to take accuracy sigill, concentration for some boon duration and maybe still some diviner gear instead of berserker. Then you have to adjust more berserker to assassins to compensate the precision loss of diviners or take different food/infusions. Its not like you have an op crit chance trait like renegade. (Not even considering right now how condi would have to be changed but it would probably be easier than power).

But maybe they will change it in such a way that you apply boons to allies and when traited only the warrior gains some stat benefits somehow. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Gorem.8104]

12 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

How optimistic are you about this change guys? I don't want to sound like a doomer, but I think warrior will become utter trash, or theyll give it so much quickness to try and patch it up that it won't matter to non-warrior mains, like they do with tactics Bladesworn and defense is still in the state it's in.

 

I mean, to be fair, whenever Warrior has had anything good over the past 9 years, it was soon nerfed out of existence. The class has remained one of the games worst classes for years. They have never listened to Warrior feedback once. They are doing this banner change because they want all classes to be the same, not because of feedback. This was not done to please Warriors. "we want certain boons to basically just be baseline active all the time". 

There is no way this ends with a good outcome. And they will continue to ignore all Warrior main's feedback till the end of time. With this change, a Warrior would need concentration, which would tank their dps into the never pick category. Making all classes the same is boring. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What I would do if the bonus stats are to be removed in exchange for boons:

Banners:

Banners lose their bonus stats. Since warriors have hated the system of planting and picking them back up, they'll now mount onto the warrior's back. Sorry but this will override any backpiece item currently displayed (best solution really). Banner of Tactics is moved to the healing slot.

Banners now pulse the following boons every second to up to five allies within 600 range of the warrior:

Strength: 5 stacks of might for 4s.
Discipline: Fury for 2s.
Tactics: Regeneration for 2s.
Defense: Resolution for 2s. (lets be honest they won't give us protection, and pulsing resistance would be too good for warrior)
Battle Standard: Will now pulse 1 stack of stability for 0.5s with it's previous boons removed.

Banners are no longer summoned, there is no more light field. The above boons pulse as soon as the banners are equipped. Banners now have 'Rallies' when they are used actively. All CDs are 20s. All cast times are 1s, with Battle Standard having a 2s cast time.

Strength: All allies within 600 range gain 25 stacks of might for 4s. Enemies in the area are inflicted with 10 stacks of vulnerability.
Discipline: All allies within 600 range gain 10% increased critical strike chance (not fury, a buff on the bar using the current Discipline icon) for 5s. Enemies within 600 range are weakened for 5s.
Tactics: All allies within 600 range are healed for 6000. Enemies within 600 range are poisoned with 3 stacks for 5s.
Defense: All allies within 600 range gain 3000 barrier. Enemies within 600 range are blinded for 2s.
Battle Standard: Finish foes and revive allies in the target area, 300 range radius on both effects, 900 range.  CD is increased by 10s per foe finished or ally revived.

Double Standards is removed and replaced with a new trait called Quickening Banners.
Quickening Banners: Banners now pulse 1s of quickness in addition to their normal boons and continue to pulse their boons after a rally has been used. When under the effects of quickness the Warrior gains 250 precision and 250 ferocity, these stat increases are halved in competitive play.

This way you get several important boons while within range of the warrior, you get useful active effects that are all support  focused, and quickness will give the warrior bonus stats to make up for the DPS loss of the removal of the bonus stats. This includes extra precision which is something that warrior is sorely lacking in.

So, obviously they won't do that now...

Edited April 18, 2022 by Lan Deathrider.5910
typos

[Grand Marshal.4098]

12 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What I would do if the Bonus stats are to be removed in exchange for boons:

Banners:

Banners lose their bonus stats. Since warriors have hated the system of planting and picking them back up, they'll now mount onto the warrior's back. Sorry but this will override any backpiece item currently displayed (best solution really). Banner of Tactics is moved to the healing slot.

Banners now pulse the following boons every second to up to five allies within 600 range of the warrior:

Strength: 5 stacks of might for 4s.
Discipline: Fury for 2s.
Tactics: Regeneration for 2s.
Defense: Resolution for 2s. (lets be honest they won't give us protection, and pulsing resistance would be too good for warrior)
Battle Standard: Will now pulse 1 stack of stability for 0.5s with it's previous boons removed.

Banners are no longer summoned, there is no more light field. The above boons pulse as soon as the banners are equipped. Banners now have 'Rallies' when they are used actively, All CDs are 20s. All cast times are 1s, with Battle Standard having a 2s cast time.

Strength: All allies within 600 range gain 25 stacks of might for 4s. Enemies in the area are inflicted with 10 stacks of vulnerability.
Discipline: All allies within 600 range gain 10% increased critical strike chance (not fury, a buff on the bar using the current Discipline icon) for 5s. Enemies within 600 range are weakened for 5s.
Tactics: All allies within 600 range are healed for 6000. Enemies within 600 range are poisoned with 3 stacks for 5s.
Defense: All allies within 600 range gain 3000 barrier. Enemies within 600 range are blinded for 2s.
Battle Standard: Finish foes and revive allies in the target area, 300 range radius on both effects, 900 range.  CD is increased by 10s per foe finished or ally revived.

Double Standards is removed and replaced with a new trait called Quickening Banners.
Quickening Banners: Banners now pulse 1s of quickness in addition to their normal boons and continue to pulse their boons after a rally has been used. When under the effects of quickness the Warrior gains 250 precision and 250 ferocity, these stat increases are halved in competitive play.

This way you get several important boons while within range of the warrior, you get useful active effects that are all support  focused, and quickness will give the warrior bonus stats to make up for the DPS lose of the removal of the bonus stats. This includes extra precision which is something that warrior is sorely lacking in.

So, obviously they won't do that now...

If it's mobile count me in

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

44 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

If it's mobile count me in

I don't care so long as it is mobile. If it isn't mobile its DOA.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't care so long as it is mobile. If it isn't mobile its DOA.

Yeah, if it's mobile we can figure something out with an actually new playstyle.

[Arewn.2368]

Realistically, given Anets typical scope for reworks and their stated goals for this change:

Banners and spirits will functionally work as wells.

One banner will provide quickness, one spirit will provide alacrity. Additionally a trait will enhance or provide more quickness/alacrity for all banners/spirits.

Each banner/spirit will do something unique like a boon or aoe damage. But the unique buff they currently provide will be removed for the sake of comp flexibility/accessibility. If the unqiue buffs remain, the banner/spirits will continue to be a "mandatory" part of comps, so they'll be removed.

 

They'll have shorter cd/durations, which will aid them somewhat in competitive modes, though ultimately still be mediocre in PVP (as PVE support specs tend to be).

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

I know the benchmarks dont worry. You cant take the full dps version as base for your calculation because you have to take banners in the first place, so your base is 33/34k (and yes power bs is very easy to achieve, condi not so much). Its entirely possible that they change banners in such a way that you will barely need any boon duration yes. But what if you need more investment like alacrity spectre or alac renegade? Not to mention the possibility of trait switches (that would kill condi bs completely). 

Also you have to assume that its just passive application. No one knows if that will change.

In the end you have many factors where we simply dont know how they will play out.

Keep in mind that your options to build for concentration are fairly limited. Your rune is already needed for crit cap, some of your gear is already assassin. If you loose spotter in realistic scenarios next to your banner stats, you need to take accuracy sigill, concentration for some boon duration and maybe still some diviner gear instead of berserker. Then you have to adjust more berserker to assassins to compensate the precision loss of diviners or take different food/infusions. Its not like you have an op crit chance trait like renegade. (Not even considering right now how condi would have to be changed but it would probably be easier than power).

But maybe they will change it in such a way that you apply boons to allies and when traited only the warrior gains some stat benefits somehow. 

Yes you can because Arenanet stated that is the design goal. Did you not read the pcgamer interview?

Scrapper used to be around 26.6K DPS and then the buffs eventually made it ~29k if played perfectly and ~28k if you bring some extra boon duration.

You assume that there will be no changes to the class whatsoever to attain their goal. If the initial iterations don't see play there will be changes, warrior is a popular class.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You assume that there will be no changes to the class whatsoever to attain their goal. If the initial iterations don't see play there will be changes, warrior is a popular class.

I know you are talking about pve, but I can't resist:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/107174-which-class-is-the-most-one-dimensional

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/106867-what-is-the-most-annoying-profession-to-duel-pvp

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/103274-¿which-classes-are-the-most-played-ones-on-spvp-na-and-eu-poll

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/103023-favoriteleast-favorite-class-to-fight-against

Warrior, the popular punching bag.

But yeah in fractals I see a war once in a while. Used to be more an year ago.

[anbujackson.9564]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You assume that there will be no changes to the class whatsoever to attain their goal. If the initial iterations don't see play there will be changes, warrior is a popular class.

Actually I dont. I said that there are too many unknown factors because we dont know how they will change them and what else they are going to do. 

Anyway you cant assume anything really, no matter what you think is right or what you think is the most likely scenario. Lets just wait for the preview in June.