nerf the boonblob

[Xenesis.6389]

4 minutes ago, Cogadh.1845 said:

Thanks for listening to my very disappointed rant. I really wish more from it and hope that sometime in the future it will get the attention I believe it deserves (and someone takes over combat design that isn't obsessed with boons)

Some of us have been ranting about boons for 7 years, some since the damage nerf in 2020. The guilds are fine with it, anet is fine with it, pve groups are fine with it, so it's not going to change, just get worse by the preview of the june patch coming. The only ones opposed to it are the ones that have to actively fight it in pvp with smaller numbers, and that's a small group of players apparently. The solution is join bigger groups, run meta, get all boons 100%, or gtfo.

Most of these changes point to improving the lowest common denominator of player. Even celestial was changed include all stats, the change was massive, ascended celestial has a total of 1863 stats now, marauder 4 stat only has 1166, berserk 3 stat only has 1069. Who thought this was a good idea? They even changed the default gear for the level 80 boost to celestial.

 

There's just no point ranting about it anymore.

[Cogadh.1845]

43 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Most of these changes point to improving the lowest common denominator of player. Even celestial was changed include all stats, the change was massive, ascended celestial has a total of 1863 stats now, marauder 4 stat only has 1166, berserk 3 stat only has 1069. Who thought this was a good idea? They even changed the default gear for the level 80 boost to celestial.

Oh wow, I knew they added a couple extra stats to it, but I never sat down and calculated the total number coverage. Thats.....crazy. I've been working on getting wvw leggy armor (for the past 2 years lol) so I can have the conviented stat change to play with builds, but now feeling, buy celestial and youre good.

 

Also interesting what you said about the potential target audience for all this. Never thought about that. Tbh, the upcoming? alliance change, feels like it with be the deathblow for casual scrubs like me that like to solo and play defense by buildign up seige, it may end up being a gvg blobfest with no room for the rest of us.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Cogadh.1845

[Kozumi.5816]

12 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Some of us have been ranting about boons for 7 years, some since the damage nerf in 2020. The guilds are fine with it, anet is fine with it, pve groups are fine with it, so it's not going to change, just get worse by the preview of the june patch coming

Anet and """guilds""" can have fun with their game mode that slowly dies and never gains a single player. Enjoy your """vision""" of PvP that no one wants to play I guess? Very healthy and smart game design.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Avatara.1042]

18 hours ago, Nokturnal Lunacy.3186 said:

Its called being scared to die in a game. The fear causes the user to find more and more carry me attributes and skills, whatever to give them an advantage to stay alive cuz of fear. And this fear is irrational and only there cuz the players themselves created the stigma of "git gud" and shaming players who do die by whatever means. And so anet caters to the criers and now we have a pirateship carry me boon spamming meta cuz the ones full of fear have dominated this game mode and made it what it is. This won't go away cuz even the devs are caught up in it. WvW players brought this on themselves.

What the...?

People do not want to die because you lose bags, and WvW has so little loot to begin with.

[Jski.6180]

Just give every class some ability to strip and add in more counter boon condis. I suggest a condi that makes boons tick faster in duration (keep same tick effect speed). I would also like to see a condi that cuts the effectiveness of boons. I would not mind seeing an effect that weakens a target healing out put (not self heal).

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

Another idea replace make everyone 1 HP and give long range weapon 1500 to everyone

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 4/16/2022 at 6:49 PM, Nakre.4269 said:

every fight is incredibly boring it's like the pirateship meta if the pirateship shot waterballoons at eachother. every driver on NA does the same thing walk up pull kill like one or two people and reset until the pull is back up 

 

do some (not all) of the following

- revert shade back to 10 target and give it it's damage back

- revert rev hammer nerfs

- revert meteor shower nerfs

- delete minstrel

- delete all rez utility

- make winds not trash again it was honestly fine when it was stationary and stripped all incoming boons

- nerf cleanses

Nerf condition damage as well and I'd agree to the cleanses; Right now the spike damage condi's can do in small scale is disgusting. 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Nerf condition damage as well and I'd agree to the cleanses; Right now the spike damage condi's can do in small scale is disgusting. 

Ironically that burst probably comes mostly from boon corruption.

[Thornwolf.9721]

2 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Ironically that burst probably comes mostly from boon corruption.

It's entirely possible. Still it'd need to be tuned down if cleanses and boons themselves were dialed back

[Cogadh.1845]

3 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Just give every class some ability to strip and add in more counter boon condis. I suggest a condi that makes boons tick faster in duration (keep same tick effect speed). I would also like to see a condi that cuts the effectiveness of boons. I would not mind seeing an effect that weakens a target healing out put (not self heal).

 

So maybe I'm gonna try one more thing before I pack up and leave again (just need next week of WvW to get my 3rd leggy armor piece). Can anyone recommend a build that tough as nails that has boon removal/corruption. I play solo, usually scouting/defending camps, often bumping into others that play like me (so not in a coordinated group). What build would be useful to counter the boon and celestial ele/willbender groups I usually see that also is focused on survivability? Something not focused on killing, but disruption. The classes I like to play most are engi, rev and kinda enjoying virtuoso, just started it (apart from the million projectile hate skills). What could I build thats survivable and helps others in these small fights?

Edited April 20, 2022 by Cogadh.1845

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

nerf  stealth play first.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:49 PM, Nakre.4269 said:

- revert shade back to 10 target and give it it's damage back

- revert rev hammer nerfs

- revert meteor shower nerfs

- delete minstrel

- delete all rez utility

- make winds not trash again it was honestly fine when it was stationary and stripped all incoming boons

- nerf cleanses

 

All of those suggestions except reverting WoD just give people even more reason to pirate ship boonblob by tanking up and waiting for the one big ranged bomb to happen.

The only way to fix the boonblob is to remove AoE boon application except stability and properly bring back raw stat value to offensive trait lines.  That's literally it.  It simply cannot be fixed any other way.  But ANet bends to the PvE formats so it'll never happen.

No amount of rock-paper-scissors balance and increased target caps will undo boon blob; it's the optimal solution to all combat, period.  And the game is so over-bloated with no-skill area boon and support/damage mitigation access that it's never going to not be the best way to stay alive.

[Corabelle.3254]

15 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

All of those suggestions except reverting WoD just give people even more reason to pirate ship boonblob by tanking up and waiting for the one big ranged bomb to happen.

 

 

never said i didn't like pirate ship i just dislike pirate ship when it doesn't kill anyone

pirate ship when the range bomb kills like 15-20 people on both sides is fine and is actually NOT boring unlike so many of you believe. bonus points if minstrels players also get oneshot.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Nakre.4269

[Aeolus.3615]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:53 PM, Cogadh.1845 said:

 

So maybe I'm gonna try one more thing before I pack up and leave again (just need next week of WvW to get my 3rd leggy armor piece). Can anyone recommend a build that tough as nails that has boon removal/corruption. I play solo, usually scouting/defending camps, often bumping into others that play like me (so not in a coordinated group). What build would be useful to counter the boon and celestial ele/willbender groups I usually see that also is focused on survivability? Something not focused on killing, but disruption. The classes I like to play most are engi, rev and kinda enjoying virtuoso, just started it (apart from the million projectile hate skills). What could I build thats survivable and helps others in these small fights?

 

Theres a decent chrono boon removal, i dont know the build exactly but alot of them are using MINSTRELL stats.

Note: i prefer boon removal over convertthem  to condis since enemies tend to have also quite some minstrell scrappers and Fb's

If theres most direct damage and poor conditions,  scrappers dont have  much to convert for boons so they kinda become less efficient in their group.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Xenesis.6389]

Been running a cele chrono interrupt boon removal spec past month, and having loads of fun rediscovering my love for pulls. Better than corrupt necros which just provides more condi's for scrappers to convert, but, necro has a lot more unblockables sooo....

 

[Aeolus.3615]

The issue with boons is that theres only boons so everything ends in boons :}  so the batle of spamers becomes on spam more than enemy can convert to condi or remove.. its a bad mechanic since game release and i always advocated that was a awfull way to balance a game.

Shouts need to be shouts, stances need to be stances, wards, wells, boons need to become enchantement spell, etc.

Boons would not stack at 100%

Shouts cant be stacked if they are the same.

Ranger could have its preparation mechanics back.... which would be amazing for gw2.

Gw1 is still a amazing and far superior recipe after this many years.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[aspirine.6852]

Or give way way more corrupts.. But no, seems like that in the next update even more boons....

[Aeolus.3615]

11 minutes ago, aspirine.6852 said:

Or give way way more corrupts.. But no, seems like that in the next update even more boons....

If anet reduce/remove corrupts, players will add more boon support builds.

If anet nerfs boons, players will add  boons to cover where is lacking.

If anet boost boons players will had more boons classes, mostly gameplay i bet that would be condi tanks with supports mostly.

 The condition systemwould have to suffer some split, in gw1 not all condi cleanses could cleanse all states... some skills could only pull or cleans burns each class build had its own role, imagine if Firebrand could pull burn from alies and convert in self barrier for example or explode its barrier to aply burn to near enemies... while player DPS role and provide dps utility'ish.

Its a boon spam and stack system.... brainless, dull... gimmick game.

 

And note that every elite spec is basicly some uber weird thing that spams all the same boons of all other classes sometimes more sometimes less...

Edited April 21, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Xenesis.6389]

Purity of purpose was the biggest mistake for the endless recycling.

Application/Strip/Corruption/Cleanse, that's all that was needed, an endpoint, not continuous recycling.

Now they're trying to have 100% uptime on boons from multiple classes because they want players to more freely use specs and not feel restricted to certain ones, that's fine and well, in pve, not in wvw.

Group makeups are always going to be firebrand/scrapper/1 useful utility maybe/2-3 of the most useful aoe dps.

The entire system is brainless spamming, and if there's any shortcomings, just stack more firebrand/scrappers!

The part where you actually have to coordinate for those boonless time gaps, they keep nerfing...

Of course, if they buffed strip/corruptions, just stack more firebrand/scrappers!

🙄😔

 

 

35 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 imagine if Firebrand could pull burn from alies and convert in self barrier for example

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Martyr

🤭

[Aeolus.3615]

42 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Purity of purpose was the biggest mistake for the endless recycling.

Application/Strip/Corruption/Cleanse, that's all that was needed, an endpoint, not continuous recycling.

Now they're trying to have 100% uptime on boons from multiple classes because they want players to more freely use specs and not feel restricted to certain ones, that's fine and well, in pve, not in wvw.

Group makeups are always going to be firebrand/scrapper/1 useful utility maybe/2-3 of the most useful aoe dps.

The entire system is brainless spamming, and if there's any shortcomings, just stack more firebrand/scrappers!

The part where you actually have to coordinate for those boonless time gaps, they keep nerfing...

Of course, if they buffed strip/corruptions, just stack more firebrand/scrappers!

🙄😔

 

 

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unholy_Martyr

🤭

 

Necro yeah ... firenecrobrand :) that's why i always felt gw2 class design a mess they set a theme then they fail towards that theme basicly, and just some actually work due performance gap.

quote:"Now they're trying to have 100% uptime on boons from multiple classes because they want players to more freely use specs and not feel restricted to certain ones, that's fine and well, in pve, not in wvw."

Even on pve it dumbs down the game, and actually restrics the class and builds towards what is best or overperforming and there's always a gap between those.

 

btw that Matyr on necro is strange choice  on skill renaiming on gw1 we have:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Foul_Feast which is far more on theme and function  of the skill itself... but go figure..Anet...

It could even maintain the "This skill recharges twice as fast if you remove Disease from your target."

Desease on WvW zergs would be hilarious wich actually is something that i was expecting  in the new necro.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Necro yeah ... firenecrobrand 🙂 that's why i always felt gw2 class design a mess they set a theme then they fail towards that theme basicly, and just some actually work due performance gap.

quote:"Now they're trying to have 100% uptime on boons from multiple classes because they want players to more freely use specs and not feel restricted to certain ones, that's fine and well, in pve, not in wvw."

Even on pve it dumbs down the game, and actually restrics the class and builds towards what is best or overperforming and there's always a gap between those.

 

btw that Matyr on necro is strange choice  on skill renaiming on gw1 we have:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Foul_Feast which is far more on theme and function  of the skill itself... but go figure..Anet...

It could even maintain the "This skill recharges twice as fast if you remove Disease from your target."

Desease on WvW zergs would be hilarious wich actually is something that i was expecting  in the new necro.

 

It would be kinda cool if classes had some more focused theme/play on boons and conditions, like you mentioned with firebrand using burn to convert to a shield(technically scrappers do this with purity burns into aegis lol), or what if chrono cleanses would convert slow on them to quickness or chill to alacrity, or necro's pull poison and convert it to poison clouds around them. Rather than just the simple spam cleanse/convert we have, or the mass convert they stuck on purity.

They probably don't want to develop deep systems, just spamming is good enough for everyone.

[subversiontwo.7501]

4 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Purity of purpose was the biggest mistake for the endless recycling.

Application/Strip/Corruption/Cleanse, that's all that was needed, an endpoint, not continuous recycling.

Now they're trying to have 100% uptime on boons from multiple classes because they want players to more freely use specs and not feel restricted to certain ones, that's fine and well, in pve, not in wvw.

Group makeups are always going to be firebrand/scrapper/1 useful utility maybe/2-3 of the most useful aoe dps.

The entire system is brainless spamming, and if there's any shortcomings, just stack more firebrand/scrappers!

The part where you actually have to coordinate for those boonless time gaps, they keep nerfing...

Of course, if they buffed strip/corruptions, just stack more firebrand/scrapper

Well, this is the stuff all the whiners have not figured out yet. Even though it has been pointed out in every duplicate thread posted.

• The only real stop to all things qouted is to nerf CC to make the counter-CC less important or even superfluous.
• The only real stop to the spam is to have fewer sources with longer uptimes and cooldowns (and duration- rather than intensity stacks as the norm). That's how you maintain balance with less volatility (less risk to go horribly imbalanced in either direction) and spam. It is simpler and better.
• The only real stop to making players stack tightly is to make them less dependent on the distribution range of those boons, not more dependent. Despite popular belief on this forum, blobs tend to stack to maintain critical counter-CC, not to soak damage because some solo donkey threw a meteor shower and ran into a tower.
•  

Spoiler

 

It's also a low-odds bet that we're not seeing people talk about these things when they make these threads because they themselves play some sort of low-committant run-away-skij build in the same cowardly manner where they themselves are not subjected to all the CC. The CC that keeps other builds excluded from different types of content. They sit in towers. They only play ranged. They play something that has enough class-unique breaks, cleanses and interactions (on stealths, dodges, swaps, all-movement, etc.) to never see CC the way other classes do when they have to stack buttons in the traditional way and still can't keep up with that spam. These people want more CC to leverage on others instead and that just leads to what you describe above.

CC also makes it way harder to fight back against larger numbers because they take your buttons away. That's why no one who actually zerg busts just harps on about boons because stacked CC spam is much harder to deal with on inferior numbers than defensive-boon spam. Using their buttons better is the bread and butter for any buster. CC on the other hand favours numbers because it takes buttons away and let them pile on. It is much easier to gank when CC is abundant. However, this again, is evidently not brought up by players who play non-commitant stuff but want to gank. They rarely speak for things that requires you to take risks and commit to win. This is why such people don't speak for actual balance, because they don't understand or care about the situation for all classes.

One way to approach a nerf of CC is to mainly take it from range and let the slower commitant melee that is subjected to the most CC also be the ones that can dish it out. Mobility alone can be enough for range to maintain range and preserve a balance between kiting and crushing distance (ie., slower and shorter with more CC and faster or longer with less CC). That would be a balance. It would even be a direction for future balance.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Superspeed is important because cleanses generally do not keep up with control conditions. It provides a bottom line that stops ArenaNet from having to deal with large swings when they try to fine tune the balance. Superspeed essentially lets them err on the side of caution and let chill/crip spam be common without dominating. Sitting in constant chill, cripple or immob is super boring. The same goes for stuns, knockdowns or other forms of hard CC. It is super boring to sit in and the larger the scale the more of it stacks. That makes stability more and more important the larger things get.

The game was built around high mobility and action combat. It doesn't do well with an abundance of CC. Many classes or builds that are excluded from content are that because of CC or because it isn't worth stacking the necessary amount of counter-CC to carry them around. Nerf the CC and dependency on counter-CC and suddenly they will see more use.

It is a rather sweet irony that it is things like Immo-Beasts that keep melee-Beasts from contest and content. It is also rather ironic that most of the classes that makes up "the meta" all have some sort of 1200r CC on their meta build whether that is Line of warding, Thunder Clap, Drop the Hammer, Temporal Curtain and less commonly Static field, Unsteady Ground and Reaper's Mark. It is the existance of all these buttons that make some boons so important. Every, single, meta, build have them. A group of 50 have 50+ of them. This is why FB's are so important. If you look at all sources of immob, crip, chill etc., you'll know what makes Scrappers (or Tempests) so important. There just isn't an alternative to it. Any time you move into your damage-range you also put yourself at risk to it. Things like Curtains can even yoink you at the extended range of projectiles.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 4/17/2022 at 1:49 AM, Nakre.4269 said:

every fight is incredibly boring it's like the pirateship meta if the pirateship shot waterballoons at eachother. every driver on NA does the same thing walk up pull kill like one or two people and reset until the pull is back up 

 

do some (not all) of the following

- revert shade back to 10 target and give it it's damage back

- revert rev hammer nerfs

- revert meteor shower nerfs

- delete minstrel

- delete all rez utility

- make winds not trash again it was honestly fine when it was stationary and stripped all incoming boons

- nerf cleanses

high quality shitpost

 

u just want more pirateship i guess. old bubble was better, yes and not only hammer, but all coefficients should be as they have been in 2019... not only buffing certain stuff, that'd be just create more problems. the coeff nerfs was a huge mistake that only a full revert of it can fix

 

scourge is fine, the 10 target (atm its 2 btw) is just absolutely not necessary i guess. it would be far stronger with a 10 cap, but that's not directly necessary i feel

 

but the rest is just random stuff.  nerfing cleanses and removing minstrel would just lead to replacements and is overall more harming groupmovement than anything else. rez stuff is far from broken overall

[Famine.7915]

I agree on rezzing. Get rid of the instant rezzing or just get rid of downstate. I mean, they got rid of instant stomps yeah?...

Edited April 23, 2022 by Famine.7915

[Caedmon.6798]

Keep wondering why this game mode is having a slow death when people only want to run in groups of 50. And even when having Guild raids they handhold with another guild for a wooden tower vs like 5 people and throw up like 5 catas and 3 shield gens ontop of it ,It's sad beyond words really.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Caedmon.6798