"Dead" archetypes need a complete overhaul of their weapon spells.

[Aodlop.1907]

If you told me the next expansion would bring a D/D necromancer elite spec, I'd be really hyped. 

Except there's no need for an elite spec in this case: Necromancers can already play with D/D, it's just completely unheard of because it's supremely inferior to everything else.

 

Just like D/D Necro, many other weapon choices are completely dead and never see play. These weapons need a complete overhaul and a set of brand new spells.

 

Which other dead archetypes would you like to see getting some love?

Edited April 17, 2022 by Aodlop.1907

[Labjax.2465]

Does "most of them" count as feedback? 😛

I'm not a practiced buildcrafter, so I may be missing something important here, but based on the guides I see and what I see written about the different professions (as well as my own limited experimentation), it appears like only a few specs are viable* for each in the hardest zones, way less than the variations in weapons and specialization types. I don't expect a viable build for every ability combination, but it would be nice to be able to put together specs before unlocking the elite specializations that are decent, or just like you point out, more variation in weapon set use. I don't think that new players struggling through lesser builds until they can get an elite spec in an expansion zone is a good look for the game and it's surely a pain for vets doing alts, but maybe there are on par vanilla builds that I'm just not seeing.

*viable meaning not going to have you being deadweight that is contributing little and dying a lot.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Aodlop.1907]

Of course, there will always be a META, but some non-optimal builds can still be viable.

Some weapons are however just plain garbage. The hammer, for mor professions, might as well not exist for example.

[SlayerXX.7138]

Which game mode you are playing? Because in PvE everything that is a 2-5% dps loss might as well be death for the hardcore gamers. Pretty hard to balance around such small margins. In PvP Stuff is a little more crazy especially in mid tiers. But even there weapon with blocks are quite popular and always be.

 

Personally I play thief. And thief has only 1 weapon combination who isn't used P/P. Which seems fair not everything can be meta.  Pew/Pew OW thief is funny. If you make everything Meta balanced you suck the fun and flavor our of every weapon. I'm sitting in ranked at exactly 1500 between gold and plat(Somewhat high tier). With some D/D meme build. Which is supremely inferior to all the meta build. But still good enough.

 

Some things could of course be improved on. Ele stuff is to slow. Thief pistol without imitative might as well be unequipped. Soulbeast dagger is uninspired. But if you look at the game as a whole most weapons have a home somewhere, and we shouldn't suck there soul out of them to make them all viable for the top 5%.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Obtena.7952]

In otherwords ... if it's not meta, it's a 'dead' build. Not a problem .. lots of 'dead' builds are played despite the OP claim. Not everything can be meta. Nothing stops you from playing anything you want, except the choice you make to play the game. Trying to chase meta with balancing and game changes is a waste of time because you never get a game state where everything is balanced to meta. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Parasite.5389]

the problem with these kind of arguments, is once you re-work this "Dead" build, all the other existing build become obsolete, and you're back to square one.

 

just play what ever feels comfortable to you, stop trying to chase the meta.

[Khisanth.2948]

Could you not start with such a bad example?

Main hand dagger - power

Off hand dagger - condi

Who is going to be surprised that trying to use both at the same time is not very effective? Why should attempting an obviously bad combination work out?

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Meta based builds for any game mode are typically built around hitting specific targets. In PvE this is the ability to provide 100% uptime for a specific boon, or maximizing DPS. In WvW and PvP it revolves around a balance of Sustain and DPS and/or Group Support.

Not all weapons will be viable in all circumstances but, in WvW and OW PvE you can run pretty much any weapon and turn it into a viable build.  These builds may fall short of competing with Meta builds but the drop off is far less than it appears at first. It may be harder to see this as making a weapon viable may require specific traits, gear stats, sigils and runes to prove its effectiveness.

However, for those who do like to theory craft and are okay with doing something different than the meta, there is a lot of diversity in trying out different weapons and builds with your favorite eSpec. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Labjax.2465]

I wonder what people are considering viable for different modes. For example, in open world I would consider viable to mean you can do decent DPS on a still target (like what's a good minimum, 5-10k at least?) and you have enough survivability that you aren't going to get curbstomped constantly if you end up alone for a minute. But also be flexible enough in damage output that you won't lose all your damage from target switching (which happens very often in open world context) and you aren't limited primarily to single target (lot of mobs that come in groups in open world).

I don't know if that's how others see it, so that's why I'm bringing it up.

[Pifil.5193]

1 hour ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Could you not start with such a bad example?

Main hand dagger - power

Off hand dagger - condi

Who is going to be surprised that trying to use both at the same time is not very effective? Why should attempting an obviously bad combination work out?

Precisely.

Why should this be a thing? Just because the OP wants to dual wield daggers on necro? Would you switch main hand to condi or off hand to power?

[Khisanth.2948]

52 minutes ago, Pifil.5193 said:

Precisely.

Why should this be a thing? Just because the OP wants to dual wield daggers on necro? Would you switch main hand to condi or off hand to power?

I would switch out main hand because I hate necro main hand dagger. Can't quite put my fingers on why but it never felt good to use.

[Aodlop.1907]

2 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Who is going to be surprised that trying to use both at the same time is not very effective? Why should attempting an obviously bad combination work out?

I see the problem the other way around.

I think it was a very questionable decision to allow a class to dual wield daggers, yet to make them have completely different roles. It makes very little sense, especially from a new player's perspective who'll just love the fantasy of a stabby necromancer with 2 daggers, only to be disappointed when he'll discover that they don't actually match.

[Sobx.1758]

Yes, that's something pretty frequently mentioned next to the (300s cd) trait reworks. But you're kind of late to the party, since anet alreday told us recently that they are planning to work on improving underused weapons:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

Quote

the team will be revisiting some underpowered and underused weapon skills, traits, or utilities for each profession in each profession update to help expand your arsenal. We will continue to make game-mode-specific balance adjustments as needed.

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Dante.1508]

Early days i had a d/d bleed heal build that used wells to survive, that was amazing fun until anet nerfed the healing aspect..

No fun allowed "Anet"

6 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

Could you not start with such a bad example?

Main hand dagger - power

Off hand dagger - condi

Who is going to be surprised that trying to use both at the same time is not very effective? Why should attempting an obviously bad combination work out?

Celestial.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Tails.9372]

P/P on thief, which when used as a focus weapon is generally viewed as a joke / meme / grieving set, could use a rework (as it is dysfunctional on a fundamental level) as well as the dual wielding class mechanic which should be extended to at least include the AAs on matching weapon sets.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Khisanth.2948]

39 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

Early days i had a d/d bleed heal build that used wells to survive, that was amazing fun until anet nerfed the healing aspect..

No fun allowed "Anet"

Celestial.

Traits

[patton the great.7126]

Hmmmm I see where your coming from....but hear me out. Instead of improving current content that we already have.......how about....we.....instanced player skiffs.....with.....wait for it....capes

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

I see the problem the other way around.

I think it was a very questionable decision to allow a class to dual wield daggers, yet to make them have completely different roles. It makes very little sense, especially from a new player's perspective who'll just love the fantasy of a stabby necromancer with 2 daggers, only to be disappointed when he'll discover that they don't actually match.

Well, I think you need to have a closer look at how the two daggers and traits can work together. It's not that hard. Dagger 5 then 2 ... or dagger 3 then 4. If you go the extra step, you see how some of these things also work with traits like Blood Bond or Blood Bank. 

I think you have oversimplified the value daggers have, as do many other people. The big problem with daggers is that it's not tending to be better in any build than other more predominant weapons. I believe at the start of the game, but it's been eclipsed by changes we have had with the class over time. 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[NumNums.7935]

D/d / a/d necro can be played if you want i think it was a popular power scourge build because dagger has insane lf generation.

 

Idk you could always test it out on the golem then come back with this build is trash because full boons does 12k dps or something but without specifics people will take your comment as just meta shaming.

[Aodlop.1907]

2 hours ago, NumNums.7935 said:

meta shaming.

Would be true if I were asking for the meta picks to be nerfed. Hell, I'm not even asking for damage buffs here, but for a complete redesign of some weapons.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Wanting every weapon to work with every kind of build is not going to happen. However, weapon skills that are absolutely redundant are a problem. Warrior offhand pistol and Guardian offhand sword needs work.

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

i love my P/P thief with dual quip, itd as annoying anf funny to play, i used the critheals  with zealot to stay alive and heal of my damage, worked nice

 

and then anet nerved the healing.....

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Would be true if I were asking for the meta picks to be nerfed. Hell, I'm not even asking for damage buffs here, but for a complete redesign of some weapons.

You think a complete redesign is more reasonable request than DPS buffs? Especially for weapons that already have a purpose? 😐

Necro D/D is not part of a group of 'dead' weapons. MH dagger delivers everything any good necro build needs to function; DPS, LF and sustain. Played in concert with OH dagger, MH dagger gets a whole new upgrade to that function. If anything, I think being able to do all these things prevents it from getting improved. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[misterman.1530]

I always wondered about weapons like a mace and a short bow. Does any viable build use them?

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, misterman.1530 said:

I always wondered about weapons like a mace and a short bow. Does any viable build use them?

Shortbow viable/strong for rev, was viable for easy condi ranger (not sure about now, but probably still is) and useful/strong on thief.

Mace viable/strong on rev and engie. Useful/viable on war.

 

tl;dr: yes, viable builds use them.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Sobx.1758