[Suggestions ] Just listen to this guy

[Firebeard.1746]

1 hour ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

In my opinion the only reason DE requires so much organization right now is because so much of the community has been allowed to...get by with minimum effort/understanding of game mechanics. If the rewards are decent enough that "casual" players will want to continue trying to run it, after a while I genuinely believe the skill level will have risen enough that it can be run like Octovine where all you need is a few commanders to wrangle headless chickens and people will do enough dps on their own without a 30 year old neckbeard telling you what skills to use. This is only such a large problem because ANet has seen fit to let the problem fester for 10 years (or 7 if you count the HoT even post nerfs) 

On you not liking the Meta, well I'm sure DE won't be "replacing" the normal difficulty for Meta's, but more it's Anet rectifying that the final Meta for a expansion/LS should probably FEEL like an hard fought struggle and not just gold farm #7. Who knows maybe a new breed of casual will spawn if they ferment in DE's goo, who dislike Strikes/Raids but enjoy hard Meta's? Will you say they don't have a right to enjoy that content?

To me, Dragonfall encapsulated a hard struggle without making me lose an extremely long meta with little rewards over and over again. 

And to effectively farm gold in OW, even before DE, you needed particular builds and squads. Eu fast farming explains this in their site. And sometimes you even need to hit the metas at particular times with coordination. I don't think that's any less effort than raiding in this game, just a different type of work. The number on EU fast farming lie without this consideration. 

There's a place for people who want massive metas that are difficult. It's called Eye of the North. They did this with the Marionette fight. I'm all for absolutely massive content on an organized scale. I don't think there's a ton of demand, given the popularity of Marionette. But the guilds, in guild wars matter when they do things like this. Raids imo, don't really hit that spot because they're not really a front and center guild activity based on their design. Both dragonstorm and Marionette are map-sized. There's nothing stopping them from using this system to having more massive content. They could even do a public version with slightly less rewards and make the private give more to incentivize organized play. You learn in public, get gud rewards with their guild

If it was me, I would have actually made the Soo-won phase an instanced 50-man thing with a 100% drop rate on the summoning stone. And added a 75 man public version with a 50-75% drop rate on the summoning stone. And made the DE meta end just before the Soo Won encounter and that's where you got your chests from your bonus buff that don't drop the summoning stone. 

I'm not opposed to hard content, it just doesn't belong in OW, especially when you're requiring hard DPS checks.

But while we're talking about DPS I want to point this out: How is it fair that so much of this game emphasizes DPS when so few of the gear and trait combinations actually generate optimal DPS? In order for legendaries to be worth something, there should be content where it's optimal I'm wearing full minstrels (that doesn't feel like a damage sponge, which could easily happen there). 

This game punches far below its weight. With permanent gear progression, all they need is fun content to keep players engaged, with enough reward that it feels rewarding. Just look at Lol and Apex: LEgends. Players appreciate games you dont' have to grind gear, and anet is massively underplaying their hand with both the direction they've gone in the PVE meta as well as their overall design. This could be the MMO that people just play to have fun and it would CRUSH. but instead we have a 5-role+ nightmare that only rewards one type of play in a sea of gear and trait line choices. 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

after a while I genuinely believe the skill level will have risen enough that it can be run like Octovine where all you need is a few commanders to wrangle headless chickens and people will do enough dps on their own without a 30 year old neckbeard telling you what skills to use. This is only such a large problem because ANet has seen fit to let the problem fester for 10 years (or 7 if you count the HoT even post nerfs) 

I genuinely believe that if they really squashed the DE bugs much faster and kept turtle reward gated behind a meta clear, we might have been able to reach an Octovine status. Because you're exactly right, in my experience, with Octovine - people are still pretty bad at the game for the most part, but just one person in each lane keeping people focused on the right things is enough now. Not sure if it's just powercreep, or self-selection (probably both), but regardless clear rates are pretty reliable for the AB meta.

As for the "problem" ANet has left to fester... I used to think it was a "problem," but have come to accept that it's part of the game's core identity at this point.

The only real way to have a legit "play as you want" kind of game is to give both (1) enough build freedom to either make your character a true tryhard or a perma-useless casual, AND (2) enough content where it's easy enough for the casuals to make it (either on their own, or being carried through certain events). GW2 is the rare example of a game that does that, yet still has enough things in it for the tryhards to chase after.

I'm not sure there's a smart way to shift away from the easy-enough-for-casuals part of the equation. As far as I can see, keeping OW accessible to the low skill floor players while creating segregated instanced content for people looking for a challenge is the way to go. Of course, that's more work - I get the temptation of making one set of content for everybody, seems more efficient. I'm just not sure ANet (or anyone, really) can pull off the make-everyone-happy sort of content.

[Erise.5614]

8 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I disagree with the point about very very few people attacking those who enjoy hardcore content. I see it frequently both here and in game. The fact that pejorative terms such as, "try hard," (and more) have been invented and entered common use are a solid indication that the attitude, and its expression, is not niche. And, to be clear, I say this as a casual who plays with other casuals, who is a member of multiple casual guilds. 

The thing is, when do you see that? Generally not unless you encounter negative behavior displayed by people who are fully immersed into hardcore content. Who do min max towards it and expect the same of the people around them.

I see significantly more hatred towards non hardcore players than hostility towards hardcore players. Sure, it exists. But my point is, most of it seems like a reaction. And if one wants to improve that dynamic there has to be a culture shift. Where hardcore players get more accepting and stand up against bashing casuals.

5 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I genuinely believe that if they really squashed the DE bugs much faster and kept turtle reward gated behind a meta clear, we might have been able to reach an Octovine status. Because you're exactly right, in my experience, with Octovine - people are still pretty bad at the game for the most part, but just one person in each lane keeping people focused on the right things is enough now. Not sure if it's just powercreep, or self-selection (probably both), but regardless clear rates are pretty reliable for the AB meta.

As for the "problem" ANet has left to fester... I used to think it was a "problem," but have come to accept that it's part of the game's core identity at this point.

The only real way to have a legit "play as you want" kind of game is to give both (1) enough build freedom to either make your character a true tryhard or a perma-useless casual, AND (2) enough content where it's easy enough for the casuals to make it (either on their own, or being carried through certain events). GW2 is the rare example of a game that does that, yet still has enough things in it for the tryhards to chase after.

I'm not sure there's a smart way to shift away from the easy-enough-for-casuals part of the equation. As far as I can see, keeping OW accessible to the low skill floor players while creating segregated instanced content for people looking for a challenge is the way to go. Of course, that's more work - I get the temptation of making one set of content for everybody, seems more efficient. I'm just not sure ANet (or anyone, really) can pull off the make-everyone-happy sort of content.

That is a magnificent way of putting it. Most of the negativity from non hardcore players comes from being pushed or forced into hardcore content that one does not enjoy. Expecting something and then having a much worse experience.

What people like me are asking for is serious choice. Being able to avoid content while still working towards all major QoL. To have clear design. Where ANet isn't trying to conflate different areas of the game and forcing different experiences onto us that we do not want.

Keep OW approachable and laid back. Keep hardcore content clearly labeled so it's only interacted with deliberately. It can be 50+ player hardcore content. But not if it's all an OW map has to offer. Not if it's deeply entwined with traditionally casual content. Not if you can accidentally run into it and have a terrible experience as result of it. 

Make sure all aspects of the game have ways to access all legendary items. It can be used to nudge players into content. Either requiring a little bit of play in another area of the game or taking a lot longer / being significantly less convenient via the "unintended" methods. While still being possible.

And then buff rewards in the areas where exclusive QoL was a if not the main draw until now. Helping hardcore players who already have all rewards that were originally the lure.

So everyone can choose what makes them happy. Ending up as close to "make everyone happy" as possible.

[Zok.4956]

14 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

You're correct that other games don't let players mess up their builds as badly as GW2 does, but I disagree that GW2 should in any way adopt a similar system for any players, new or otherwise.

The game is already doing that in a way. Because you don't have the build freedom in sPvP that you have in PvE and WvW.

However, the game could restrict "messing up the builds" in PvE for players which choose this as an option. Just an idea: The build situation as it is now is called "expert mode" (a player can enable and disable this mode) and for new accounts this "expert mode" is not the default.

[Zok.4956]

7 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

(1) enough build freedom to either make your character a true tryhard or a perma-useless casual

I agree.

When I (from time to time) ask friendly ranger players how they choose their pet, I usually get two different answers: Most "raid-fractals-cm-players"chose the pet because of game mechanics (its the meta/best for the encounter) and most "non-raid-non-fractal-cm-players" answer "because of game design/optics (i like it and it is fun).

I can relate to that. When I started to play GW2 a long time ago, I chose flamethrower and rifle because both "felt" good and fun but not because of build or stats. And when I started raiding years later I chose the weapons that are the best to success in the encounter.
GW2 is special and combines "visuals" with "game mechanics" and sometimes the (from visual and "feel") most fun choice is not the best choice for the game mechanics/encounter. This makes the gap between different player types bigger.

7 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

(2) enough content where it's easy enough for the casuals to make it (either on their own, or being carried through certain events). GW2 is the rare example of a game that does that, yet still has enough things in it for the tryhards to chase after.

I agree.

In PvE that is usually the difference between open-world-metas/bosses (a single player can not do this, but a bunch of random players that meet ad-hoc in the map at the same time are able to succeed) and challenging-instanced-content (where build, skill, experience and group composition matter the most and where the encounter can be fine tuned to be "brutal hard" "middle hard" etc. for the team size, something that is not possible in open world maps).

 

If we ignore the many bugs in the Soo-Won fight for a moment, I think most players would be happy if we would have got an epic "easy mode" of the Soo-Won fight in open-world and a "brutal hard raid-mode" fight in an epic 50 player instance and we would not have seen this much discussion and frustration (and toxicity) about this.

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Zok.4956

[voltaicbore.8012]

3 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

If we ignore the many bugs in the Soo-Won fight for a moment, I think most players would be happy if we would have got an epic "easy mode" of the Soo-Won fight in open-world and a "brutal hard raid-mode" fight in an epic 50 player instance and we would not have seen this much discussion and frustration (and toxicity) about this.

Agreed - especially because of the public/private division for strikes, and their ability to segregate Marionette and Dragonstorm, I figured any true challenge would be branched off into private CMs. The public or OW version of the meta would be more of what we are used to. Sadly ANet decided to use none of those new technologies.

GW2 is always at its worst when it tries to mix things, a perfect example being LW in general. It's a mixture of required (if you want to continue main story with 0 gaps) and not required (skipping LW won't hold back gameplay progress). The DE meta trying to be more than the usual "can get carried by a small percent of leaders on the map" event just seems like a needless risk that benefited nobody.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

In it's current state I see no way to incorporate Legendary Armor into the open world in a way that getting it is on par with how you get other legendary armors in other gamemodes, while at the same time keeping the people that request it happy.

 

Raid legendary armor: Arguably requires the biggest skillcheck right now for armor. 

PvP legendary armor: A combination of skillcheck and grinding matches. 

WvW: close to no real skillcheck, but it is a pretty big grind unless investing a huge amount of time.

 

Open World in GW2: Let's be honest,  Open World is the easiest content GW2 has right now, nothing else comes close. 99% of the Open World does not skillcheck you in any way, and even if it did the check would be miles below the Raid and PvP armors. Not to mention that when you look at the skill level of the average Open World player, any sort of check would cause the armor to be out of their reach straight away.

 

That leaves grinding. Considering a skill-check in any form would be out of the window, the Open World armor would need a grind. And it would have to be a massive one ( on top of being the biggest material crafting sink out of all legendary armors to compensate for its lack of difficulty imo). But, here is the thing: Your average Open World player does not like being told what to do. Not when it comes to their build, their gear, their playstyle nor the content they play, let alone the time spent in said content. In other words: They most likely do not want a skillcheck for Legendary Armor, but they do not want to grind for it either. And even if they did, they would most likely complain about the crafting cost, saying no casual would ever amount xxx amounts of gold or materials.

 

So if you take away skill-check, take away grinding and take away material gates, what exactly would be 'legendary' about this armor? It would come dangerously close to another participation trophy, of which we quite frankly already have quite enough in the Open World as it is.

 

Would it be okay to for example require succesful runs of all big meta's of Core/HoT/PoF and EoD for this armor as one of its collections?

 

Would it be okay to require a full-world map completion as another example? All maps at 100%?

 

Just to name a few. 

I would say it would be a start for Legendary Armor Open World Collection 1. 

But I already know while typing this that the people requesting this armor do not want any of this and will balk about it (on top of probably burying this post in 'confused' because I am not saying "Sure, take your Open World Legendary Armor for 10 copper from a vendor, you earned it just by being here!" Now I know that is a hyperbole, but I am convinced that 99% of Open World players wishing for Open World Legendary Armor are not willing to do anything on the scale that is required for other Legendary Armor in the game to get it).

Edited May 11, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[kharmin.7683]

OWPvE content does not require legendary gear.  If someone wants legendary gear for cosmetic purposes, then that player ought to obtain it using the methods that currently exist. 

[Erise.5614]

42 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

In it's current state I see no way to incorporate Legendary Armor into the open world in a way that getting it is on par with how you get other legendary armors in other gamemodes, while at the same time keeping the people that request it happy.

 

Raid legendary armor: Arguably requires the biggest skillcheck right now for armor. 

PvP legendary armor: A combination of skillcheck and grinding matches. 

WvW: close to no real skillcheck, but it is a pretty big grind unless investing a huge amount of time.

 

Open World in GW2: Let's be honest,  Open World is the easiest content GW2 has right now, nothing else comes close. 99% of the Open World does not skillcheck you in any way, and even if it did the check would be miles below the Raid and PvP armors. Not to mention that when you look at the skill level of the average Open World player, any sort of check would cause the armor to be out of their reach straight away.

 

That leaves grinding. Considering a skill-check in any form would be out of the window, the Open World armor would need a grind. And it would have to be a massive one ( on top of being the biggest material crafting sink out of all legendary armors to compensate for its lack of difficulty imo). But, here is the thing: Your average Open World player does not like being told what to do. Not when it comes to their build, their gear, their playstyle nor the content they play, let alone the time spent in said content. In other words: They most likely do not want a skillcheck for Legendary Armor, but they do not want to grind for it either. And even if they did, they would most likely complain about the crafting cost, saying no casual would ever amount xxx amounts of gold or materials.

 

So if you take away skill-check, take away grinding and take away material gates, what exactly would be 'legendary' about this armor? It would come dangerously close to another participation trophy, of which we quite frankly already have quite enough in the Open World as it is.

 

Would it be okay to for example require succesful runs of all big meta's of Core/HoT/PoF and EoD for this armor as one of its collections?

 

Would it be okay to require a full-world map completion as another example? All maps at 100%?

 

Just to name a few. 

I would say it would be a start for Legendary Armor Open World Collection 1. 

But I already know while typing this that the people requesting this armor do not want any of this and will balk about it (on top of probably burying this post in 'confused' because I am not saying "Sure, take your Open World Legendary Armor for 10 copper from a vendor, you earned it just by being here!" Now I know that is a hyperbole, but I am convinced that 99% of Open World players wishing for Open World Legendary Armor are not willing to do anything on the scale that is required for other Legendary Armor in the game to get it).

We know that even among the relatively hardcore crowd of GW2 efficiency there's more people who own 6 legendary items than people who have a single piece of legendary armor. There seems to be a significantly higher willingness to grind and pay than you suggest.

[The Boz.2038]

8 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

We know that even among the relatively hardcore crowd of GW2 efficiency there's more people who own 6 legendary items than people who have a single piece of legendary armor. There seems to be a significantly higher willingness to grind and pay than you suggest.

Yes, please, ignore the fact that legendary weapons have been there longer (by several years), are significantly easier to obtain, and are much flashier.

Edited May 11, 2022 by The Boz.2038

[Syvaris Laskaris.5247]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

We know that even among the relatively hardcore crowd of GW2 efficiency there's more people who own 6 legendary items than people who have a single piece of legendary armor. There seems to be a significantly higher willingness to grind and pay than you suggest.

WvW legendary armor requires a dozen hours a week of only WvW play for 22 weeks, while making pitiful gold while doing so while still needing materials to craft them. 

Nothing in open world compares to the masochism required for Legendary armor.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

We know that even among the relatively hardcore crowd of GW2 efficiency there's more people who own 6 legendary items than people who have a single piece of legendary armor. There seems to be a significantly higher willingness to grind and pay than you suggest.

 

This is an entirely different crowd as well. How many of the more casually inclined Open World players own a Legendary piece?  Probably not many.  We have seen complaints that Griffon and Skyscale are considered way to grindy. These are open world collections, and not on the level that a collection for legendary gear would be.  No matter the gamemode, Legendary Armor is roughly on the same level when it comes to how you attain it: It asks for a Skillcheck, a Grind, and a Material Gate. If one of these three is lower, the other one (or two) parameters go up in comparison to compensate.

 

Legendary Open World Armor that is on par with the path to the legendary Armor currently in the game? 

The more hardcore crowd would certainly go for it, the more Open World crowd certainly would not, because it would ask things of them that they either cannot do or do not want to do: A skillcheck (You average Open World player falls flat when faced with the smallest amount of resistance usually, so this would not work), A Grind (see the Griffon and Skyscale complaints, people often say it feels 'like work'), A material gate (Your average Open World player is not sitting on stacks of materials and a load of liquid gold), none of it would mix with your average Open World player.

 

Your average Open World player dislikes challenge with a passion (they just want to relax, not worry about build, skill or mechanics and also watch some Netflix on the side), dislikes grind ( Can no longer play how they want and feel forced into doing work) and hates material gating or material sinks ( feel like they will never get that much gold or materials), all the things that is pretty much basic stuff for current ways of attaining Legendary equipment.

 

So if you take all of that out, what other options do you have but A: Open World Armor because so easy to attain it means nothing, or B: Because of A do not implement such an armor at all.

[kharmin.7683]

1 minute ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Your average Open World player dislikes challenge with a passion (they just want to relax, not worry about build, skill or mechanics and also watch some Netflix on the side), dislikes grind ( Can no longer play how they want and feel forced into doing work) and hates material gating or material sinks ( feel like they will never get that much gold or materials), all the things that is pretty much basic stuff for current ways of attaining Legendary equipment.

 

 

This is an awfully broad statement.  Egad.

[vares.8457]

21 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

 

Your average Open World player dislikes challenge with a passion (they just want to relax, not worry about build, skill or mechanics and also watch some Netflix on the side), dislikes grind ( Can no longer play how they want and feel forced into doing work) and hates material gating or material sinks ( feel like they will never get that much gold or materials), all the things that is pretty much basic stuff for current ways of attaining Legendary equipment.

This is so true. Open World players are just not the right group for legendary armor. An Open World legendary armor would be a total fail and waste of time and resources. 
It’s like a vegetarian in a steakhouse. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by vares.8457

[yann.1946]

8 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

This is so true. Open World players are not the right group for legendary armor. An Open World legendary armor would be a total fail and waste of time and resources. 
It’s like a vegetarian in a steakhouse. 

Honestly, OW players are such a broad group that i dont think you can make any meaningfull generalisation of them.

[SlayerXX.7138]

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/unlock-statistics?filter.search=season of dragon

12,3% of a self selected group who tends into the more hardcore category have the free legendary. And that include people like me who meets all the PvP requirements for the PvP one but choose  to go the season of dragon route. 

[Fuchslein.8639]

25 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

This is so true. Open World players are just not the right group for legendary armor. An Open World legendary armor would be a total fail and waste of time and resources. 
It’s like a vegetarian in a steakhouse. 

I don't think an ow legy would be wasted. The people here on this forum just need to acept that in order for an ow-legy which don't destroys the other ones, has to be a ton of grind and achievments-hunting. Way grindier and longer than the Gen 2 legy Adventures.

But as in others threads, fun fact this thread is not about legy armour and look where we are :D, people downvote such arguments or start to again just talk bad about the oh so easy wvw- and raid-grind ...

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil, avoid attacking each other and please try not to stray too far off-topic. I've removed some posts.
Regards.

[Gibson.4036]

4 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

We have seen complaints that Griffon and Skyscale are considered way to grindy. These are open world collections, and not on the level that a collection for legendary gear would be. 

But you can't attribute those complaints to the whole population of casuals. Look at how many people there are in every "skyscale is too grindy" thread that reply "no it's really not". Why do we make so much of the first, and ignore the second? There are people who are going to complain about anything, and they will always do so with more volume than those who are fine with it.

I'm a casual player. I have mine. My son, who plays a couple hours a week, got his, without complaint. The skies of Tyria are filled with the flapping of skyscale wings wherever players gather. A ton of casuals are getting their skyscales without complaint. Skyscale food, treats, and incubation lamps are some of the most reliable things you can sell on the TP to this day.

4 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

 

Your average Open World player dislikes challenge with a passion (they just want to relax, not worry about build, skill or mechanics and also watch some Netflix on the side), dislikes grind ( Can no longer play how they want and feel forced into doing work) and hates material gating or material sinks ( feel like they will never get that much gold or materials), all the things that is pretty much basic stuff for current ways of attaining Legendary equipment.

And yet, this casual has been working on Vision recently, and I've run across plenty of people out working toward it as well. We get occasional complaint threads about meteor mining or funerary incense, but players are still out there working toward open world legendaries that have grinds, and material and gold sinks. Are these only the hardcore players dipping into PVE legendaries because they have to in order to get leggie accessories?

An OW legendary armor system actually has the potential to be the most accessible for casuals because it is broken down into 6 parts. Everyone talks about the long legendary armor grind in the terms of full sets. It takes two seasons in PVP for a full set, it takes this many hours in WvW for a full set, but legendary armor has the advantage of having six division along the lines of each individual armor set. That means if you set a material and time sink equivalent to WvW or PvP, players could approach it with the goal of just one amor piece at a time, slowly earning the pieces over the lifetime of the game. Three full sets would be incredibly daunting, but just getting the three weight classes of chest pieces would be a big QoL achievement for a casual player.

4 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

 

So if you take all of that out, what other options do you have but A: Open World Armor because so easy to attain it means nothing, or B: Because of A do not implement such an armor at all.

This is a false dichotomy. Somewhere between "so onerous casual players will ignore it" and "so easy it means nothing" there is a lot of space to find a challenging, effortful journey. It doesn't even have to be as difficult as raiding or WvW or PvP. If it is not ridiclously easier, players who enjoy those game modes will still work on their legendary armor there rather than do the equivalent of mining brandstone meteors and accumulating 300 elegy mosaics or 500 trade contracts.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Three full sets would be incredibly daunting, but just getting the three weight classes of chest pieces would be a big QoL achievement for a casual player.

Having only one legendary armor piece would be a big QoL achievement? Why? Why would someone only want to have one legendary armor piece? Only one piece seems pretty useless to me. 

[Gibson.4036]

8 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Having only one legendary armor piece would be a big QoL achievement? Why? Why would someone only want to have one legendary armor piece? Only one piece seems pretty useless to me. 

From my casual point of view:

Yes, a full set of each would be the ultimate goal. But, if I have a significant piece like the chest piece on each weight class, if I want to regear my character due to balance shifts or new especs, I can swap one significant piece of armor and now I only have to pick up the other five. Down the road, maybe I'll also get the pants worked out, and then it'll just be four new pieces of armor if I want to significantly shift my build.

Hey, just having one legendary trinket (prismatic amulet) out of six feels very significant to me now that I'm changing some characters to EoD specs or deciding to shift from power to condi.

I guess my main point is that having bite sized increments to work on legendary armor makes it different than most people talk about it. Read up on legendary guides on armor and they'll all give ballpark times to acquire a set. Wielder of Magic was saying that an OW path to legendary armor would be way too overwhelmingly big for casual players. I'm saying that 1/6th of that journey would be significantly less overwhelming, and would actually make a difference to me as a casual even if I don't have 18 pieces some day.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Erise.5614]

17 hours ago, TheSeraphim.7413 said:

18 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

We know that even among the relatively hardcore crowd of GW2 efficiency there's more people who own 6 legendary items than people who have a single piece of legendary armor. There seems to be a significantly higher willingness to grind and pay than you suggest.

WvW legendary armor requires a dozen hours a week of only WvW play for 22 weeks, while making pitiful gold while doing so while still needing materials to craft them. 

Nothing in open world compares to the masochism required for Legendary armor.

A point that's very commonly made. I wanna point out two things. First, the time to gain it is fairly consistent. Only wood chest has lower rewards per pip. All other chests are at least comparable at a bit above 0.2 skirmish tickets per pip. 22 weeks is a good number to calculate as the shortest possible method. Assuming ~24 hours to complete diamond (which is about the slowest you can be on a brand new character) that makes about 530 hours per armor set. Just wanna point out that doesn't get much longer if you play less per week.

So! 6 legendary items except armor. Regalia isn't counted by GW2efficiency. The absolute minimum price if you went for the cheapest options (ring, amulet, trinket and all 3 back pieces) is gonna cost you 6000 gold. If you went for weapons instead it's at least 9000 gold. To clarify. I'm counting the absolute lowest possible cost.

As someone who primarily plays OW with the occasional fractals I make about 6 gold per hour (non gem store account value of 14.5k, ~2400 hours played. Makes about 6 gold per hour. The data is very vague in regards to how efficient I am but it seems to be somewhere around the top 30% in account value relative to time spent playing. Not particularly efficient but likely a small bit above average. And to top it all off, a significant part of that value is ascended items I did not craft but dropped from fractals or bought from raids. Meaning the actual, liquid gold per hour is lower. I'm doing this math in the way that frames my point as poorly as possible. Calculating as conservatively as possible.

So, just the raw gold to buy 6 legendary items. To farm 6000-9000 gold is gonna take me about 1000 - 1500 hours of play time. Which is equivalent to the time necessary for a bit less than 12 - 17 pieces of legendary WvW armor. 

More people did that than get a single piece of armor in PvP, WvW or raids combined. 

In gold per stat, the chest piece is the single most economic choice one can make. Only two handed weapons and the amulet are higher. Amulet is either season of dragons or about 250% more expensive than the most expensive chest piece option. Two handed weapons have less utility due to being applicable to fewer builds / classes while also being 350% as expensive.

There is no rational reason why armor would be considered less valuable. And going for the chest pieces is the second most economic choice one can make in the game. Both in terms of time spent and gold spent. (Right after regalia which is a bit of an outlier) 

You can get all 3 chest pieces in WvW and still be faster than getting two legendary weapons. Even if you farmed all necessary gold in WvW. The only sensible reasons for why people might not wanna do that is subjective. Like only getting weapons for skins or finding the method of acquisition so unenjoyable as to not even get started. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Mik.3401]

On 5/3/2022 at 10:16 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

just wanted to point out why people are voting confused on you as you seem to be new here. ^^

This is the Classic reaction  indeed. This community got so small that everyone kind of expect others to know the game well as there are not that many newcomers. No new ideas/opinions are really welcome apart from the status quo of players who still play this game daily.

I think many points teapot raises are valid though. He may be biased indeed but he’s not talking 100% b.s!t. It’s sad to see new players are just shut down like this here.

Edit: I know everyone know teapot here, but this player clearly just found out about him and it’s ok. It doesn’t deserve the reactions he got.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Sahne.6950]

35 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

This is the Classic reaction  indeed. This community got so small that everyone kind of expect others to know the game well as there are not that many newcomers. No new ideas/opinions are really welcome apart from the status quo of players who still play this game daily.

I think many points teapot raises are valid though. He may be biased indeed but he’s not talking 100% b.s!t. It’s sad to see new players are just shut down like this here.

Edit: I know everyone know teapot here, but this player clearly just found out about him and it’s ok. It doesn’t deserve the reactions he got.

agreed 😄 i have rarely seen posts with 50+ "confused"

Edit: UHH someones on a confusion spree! probably a mesmer main!

The OP got absolutly ganked by 3 Virtuosos.... 50 stacks of confusion... yikers!

Edited May 12, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Mik.3401 said:

This is the Classic reaction  indeed. This community got so small that everyone kind of expect others to know the game well as there are not that many newcomers. No new ideas/opinions are really welcome apart from the status quo of players who still play this game daily.

I think many points teapot raises are valid though. He may be biased indeed but he’s not talking 100% b.s!t. It’s sad to see new players are just shut down like this here.

Edit: I know everyone know teapot here, but this player clearly just found out about him and it’s ok. It doesn’t deserve the reactions he got.

To be honest. I suspect it's mostly the lack of specificity than any specific problem with the request / suggestions made by Teapot or that OP intended to share.

It almost comes across as an ad for the channel rather than a basis for discussion. Most likely not intended that way. But at least the reason for my "confused".

If OP had pointed out a specific topic and added a video as long form context. It would probably have been received very differently.