"Rune of the Trapper (PvP): Reduced stealth duration from 3 seconds to 1 second"

[Gundam Style.8495]

1 minute ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

"back that far?" I'm literally citing the whole time period before "before the February patch" which was the game prior to early 2020.

Trap DH, Trap Ranger, and Trap Thief were not meta now where near it...they were meme builds that serious players rolled over in matches because everything was just way stronger than these builds ever were or could be in that time period.

 

If you want a serious snapshot of the game from these days, just watch old Sindrener videos. The builds that were meta in HOT:

 

Reaper (Condi, Shoutmancers, Power) 

Tempests (that heal the reapers back then)

Mesmer (Condition, Power)

Scrapper (Bruiser)

Revenant

DP Daredevil

Druid

 

Later when POF dropped, the meta shifted from Druids -> Soulbeast (Boonbeast), Scrappers -> Holosmiths, Reapers -> Scourges. and Tempests -> Firebrands.

 

If you see a Trap DH, or a Trap Ranger or a Trap Thief...they are the exception not the norm.

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Agreed, but doesn't change the fact that it was complained about.

Strength =/= only reason something gets complained about. People complain about all sorts of stuff that isn't actually that good.

 

Meditrapper was meta. Burn DH was also meta. DH even made a return with the trapper rune, and now with the RI buff/return, more players have been using DH without the rune. It's never been a terrible or trash class, but the rune probably wasn't a fit with how the class functions as a whole. Basically it still had the DH kit while also borrowing from ranger/engi/thief by way of stealth and superspeed. It actually became stronger after the 2020 patch with the nerfs to damage, it didn't have to worry about a 1-shot gank or even a few with the natural defenses of a guard. Combine that with great damage, the stealth and superspeed was something to complain about.

 

Noob stomper is just another word for awesome climbing build. If you are mechanically sound, you can carry your butt out of gold and into plat solo on this build, as many of you have pointed out, noobs could not adapt. It may fail at higher tiers in the long run, but it was still used by a few at least situational at high tiers, in ranked. Maybe not so much in tourneys, but even with average turnouts, this accounts for less than (guess) 1% of competitive games.

 

And, conclusively, the same turbotrapper build could NOW be run with a valk amulet. That would put it at a bit less of a squishy ganker, and a bit tankier than advertised. Something was bound to fall off, and it seems this is the most logical choice anet could make up with, instead of hurting all other damage dealing guards.

 

It isn't the end of the world, but it is probably the end for the old style trapper builds. The cool thing is that they didn't remove the rune, which still has superspeed, and 1 sec of stealth is enough to detarget. Which means it may not go extinct.

 

Honestly seems like a more thought out compromise.

[Ragnar.4257]

19 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

"back that far?" I'm literally citing the whole time period before "before the February patch" which was the game prior to early 2020.

Trap DH, Trap Ranger, and Trap Thief were not meta no where near it...they were meme builds that serious players rolled over in matches because everything was just way stronger than these builds ever were or could be in that time period.

 

If you want a serious snapshot of the game from these days, just watch old Sindrener videos. The builds that were meta in HOT:

 

Reaper (Condi, Shoutmancers, Power) 

Tempests (that heal the reapers back then)

Mesmer (Condition, Power)

Scrapper (Bruiser)

Revenant

DP Daredevil

Druid

 

Later when POF dropped, the meta shifted from Druids -> Soulbeast (Boonbeast), Scrappers -> Holosmiths, Reapers -> Scourges. and Tempests -> Firebrands.

 

If you see a Trap DH, or a Trap Ranger or a Trap Thief...they are the exception not the norm.

 

 

I mean, I already addressed this in the post you quoted:

49 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

It doesn't matter that they weren't meta. Trapper DH wasn't meta today when the nerf came through. Regardless of it being meta, there was a huge amount of fuss made about it, because basically all trap builds are anti-fun.

[Ragnar.4257]

19 minutes ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

this is the most logical choice anet could make up with, instead of hurting all other damage dealing guards.

Yeah, that's the bit that's confusing me. This has never been their operating method. Trapper-Burn-DH is overperforming? Better nerf core damage! Trapper-thief is a PItA? Better change their entire utility classification. Trapper druid is annoying? Lets nerf staff.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Eddie.9143]

jeez just remove the stealth, leave the superspeed and give it +3% condition duration or some kitten

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

Meditrapper was meta. Burn DH was also meta.

No these builds were not in the meta. They were back then considered as you called it “pub-stomper” builds that functioned against most noobs but couldn’t compete against decent players gold 3 and up.
 

These DH builds along with other pub-stomper builds like flamethrower scrapper and minionmancer were not considered meta at all…they could hardly compete because they would get annihilated in seconds by these way more powerful builds (like Condi-Mesmer, Revenant and Thief) 
 

All those powerful builds were nerfed hard after feb patch. The pub-stompers builds could now stay in berserker equipment (which was the only way their builds could work) and take less damage because there was overall less damage in the game thus giving them “more sustain.” These build no longer got 1 shot how they us-to… now you needed to spend 30 more or less seconds to kill them…and the lack of damage in the game lead to these build proliferating. (You mention this)

 

The lack of competitors that usto auto dunk on them is the reason they ever became relevant to begin with.

same story with burn DH. Nobody took this build seriously…almost nobody ran them, there were so many cleanses in the game back then that this build was not an issue at all whatsoever. 
 

I don’t need to say much more than this just watch some ques from back then on sindreners channel you will hardly see any of these builds.

Edited May 10, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Zekent.3652]

26 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

No these builds were not in the meta. They were back then considered as you called it “pub-stomper” builds that functioned against most noobs but couldn’t compete against decent players gold 3 and up.
 

These DH builds along with other pub-stomper builds like flamethrower scrapper and minionmancer were not considered meta at all…they could hardly compete because they would get annihilated in seconds by these way more powerful builds (like Condi-Mesmer, Revenant and Thief) 
 

All those powerful builds were nerfed hard after feb patch. The pub-stompers builds could now stay in berserker equipment (which was the only way their builds could work) and take less damage because there was overall less damage in the game thus giving them “more sustain.” These build no longer got 1 shot how they us-to… now you needed to spend 30 more or less seconds to kill them…and the lack of damage in the game lead to these build proliferating. (You mention this)

 

The lack of competitors that usto auto dunk on them is the reason they ever became relevant to begin with.

same story with burn DH. Nobody took this build seriously…almost nobody ran them, there were so many cleanses in the game back then that this build was not an issue at all whatsoever. 
 

I don’t need to say much more than this just watch some ques from back then on sindreners channel you will hardly see any of these builds.

Wym, both were META, not recently, but they definitely used to be meta.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Wym, both were META, not recently, but they definitely used to be meta.

 

Back in HOT/POF? No they were not meta.

They became meta post feb 2020 nerf patch. That's when DH the pubstomper trapper build became "meta" along with the other pubstomper 1 button smashing builds like flamethrower scrapper, lich form 111 spam, and Ai parade minionmancers.

Edited May 10, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Khalisto.5780]

it seems like anet saw too many guardian mains not buying EoD

 

 

[Garret.1965]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Yeah, that's the bit that's confusing me. This has never been their operating method. Trapper-Burn-DH is overperforming? Better nerf core damage! Trapper-thief is a PItA? Better change their entire utility classification. Trapper druid is annoying? Lets nerf staff.

I think they tried preserving trapper runes as a unique gameplay option. Maybe even the introduction of trapper runes took the classifications into account (as a balancing/limiting measure to the rune's accessibility) - the intent being to give (more) stealth access to Ranger/Dragon Hunter/Thief. Albeit with the reclassification of thief's traps (turns out it already has uber access to stealth, coincidence?).

 

Just some thoughts.

[otto.5684]

5 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

It's fine tho dh will still function at the level which it functioned before

im just more happy that the degen trap ranger that build with a million dodges and trap stealth is gone

That level is it tier C lmao.

[Gundam Style.8495]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Back in HOT/POF? No they were not meta.

They became meta post feb 2020 nerf patch. That's when DH the pubstomper trapper build became "meta" along with the other pubstomper 1 button smashing builds like flamethrower scrapper, lich form 111 spam, and Ai parade minionmancers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/SoloQ-Meditrapper-vs-Symbolic

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Dragonhunter_-_Meditrapper

I have not forgot when meditrapper was meta just a bit after hot release and for a while, it wasn't an eternal post like scourge and FB, but it indeed was meta, and there are more threads and chatter in the discussion that claim it outright.

 

Radiant Core Guards held a spot for a while too, and then of course you had the meta FB's which were a long running OP, especially combo with a necro/scourge. Admittedly, they have been bodied and dumpstered for SPvP now, which probably calls for a redesign.

 

Next, https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Dragonhunter_-_Spirit_Burn_DH

 

 

The forums will also conclude,

What happened next was the turbo trapper, and while not the meta, it was an excellent choice for solo climbing out of the gold and below rates, by the nature of being a noob stomper.

 

Duration of meta's may be reliant on the MATs in your eyes, but the build really needs to be slammed out of use to really convince me it's not great tier. Every build except turbo trapper, was in fact, meta. You are actually in some of these posted threads. Guardians have a meta, in one form or another, perpetually. That is not a bad thing, but they have never not been in the META. Same goes for necro and thief. Everyone else does get pushed out from time to time.

 

Right now, Willbender is meta. Core guardian is still a solid pick. Valk Trappers may be coming up.

[Downstate.4697]

DH is still strong and it kind of claps on harb.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/SoloQ-Meditrapper-vs-Symbolic

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Dragonhunter_-_Meditrapper

I have not forgot when meditrapper was meta just a bit after hot release and for a while, it wasn't an eternal post like scourge and FB, but it indeed was meta, and there are more threads and chatter in the discussion that claim it outright.

 

 

Yes, Medi-trapper was meta for a moment in HOT, this was the build I was referring to in the earlier comment and I even have an old reddit post from 6+ years ago of me screaming about wanting it nerfed...back when I was like everyone else believing nerfs actually mattered for the balance of the game.

 

I'm not gonna argue with you... the history of DH is too long and too complex to talk about when it entered the meta and why. But you're making it out to seem like DH was dominating in the game, when it really wasn't.

 

The original point of this back and forth here, is the question: Why was DH (trapper rune) nerfed NOW and not 7 years ago, because the Stealth trapper build EXISTED 7 years ago...So why wasn't it nerfed then? The answer is because back then it wasn't a problem. Other more powerful classes and builds DOMINATED the meta, not DH, and the build that was meta back then was meta for different reasons (one of them being Shield of Courage usto have a 7 second duration)...you can even tell that the meta build on meta battle didn't use trapper runes.

 

So the question of why did it take 7 years to nerf this build is because nobody really played it back then, the meta was different...there were a lot more builds that simply were much better than trap dh's...along with trap rangers and trap thieves. Constant nerfs to basically everything had left these builds which were suppressed by the more powerful meta's, to emerge with little competition post 2020. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[ShionKreth.1542]

Actually, I think this nerf illustrates a very relevant point - they must be THAT far behind on the list of balance issues that this rune is being changed when it's no longer relevant. Afterall, the probably single employee who does this surely has two lists: new specs and long-standing problems, and tends to one then looks at the other with however little time they have left in their miniscule allotment, resulting in largely irrelevant changes like this that have already been balanced out by new specs.

Anywho, trying to get into spvp in this game has been such a miserable experience, this seems like an excellent place to resume a PVE focus. Trapper soulbeast, btw -- truly, the overtuned bane of willbenders, mechanists, harbingers and untameds far and wide. lol. This game..

[Sahne.6950]

14 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

That isn't true though. Trapper-Thief and Trap-Burn-DH weren't muscled out by other stuff in the meta, and somehow came out on top when everything else was nerfed. They were explicitly targeted with nerfs at the time to remove them. Thief had its traps changed to preparations, burn-DH had its burning cut in half. When in both cases the obvious fix would have been an ICD on trapper rune. So why was that not an acceptable fix then, when it was seriously needed, but now when it's not a hot topic it suddenly gets done?

I'm not complaining, it's just.... bizarre.

Are you guys really not seeing it? They tried buffing Willbender but also buffed DH accidentally. Alot of Guardianplayers then played DH instead of Willybender and were  NOT forced to buy EoD... this now changed. They just want all the DH players to buy EoD, simple as that. Thats why they didnt nerf Willbender, but randomly decided after multiple years of crying that NOW is the time to nerf Dragonhunter... when Willbender is considerably stronger. Seriously they nerf a A-Tier build, but at the same time leave the S+tier Guardian untouched... i wonder why 😛

Edited May 11, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The builds using ROTT were not overpowered, but they were bad for the game. I don't mourn its passing.

[Hotride.2187]

46 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Are you guys really not seeing it? They tried buffing Willbender but also buffed DH accidentally. Alot of Guardianplayers then played DH instead of Willybender and were  NOT forced to buy EoD... this now changed. They just want all the DH players to buy EoD, simple as that. Thats why they didnt nerf Willbender.

The timing of the pve fb nerfs is starting to make sense...

[Mik.3401]

15 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Look its opposite day!

They removed so many things from the gamemode that could have been balanced... but the one thing that clearly needs a deletion, they attempt to balance.
What I do not get is after years of statistics about winrates, ruined/memed monthlies, endless player frustration and flamewars both ingame and on the forums... what the hell changed? Why now? If it was fine for the last 3 years, it is fine now.

That said, good riddance. Anything that makes trapper, minion master, and turret builds meta needs to be crushed to dust by the repeated strikes of the nerfbat. These kinds of builds need to be bad.

It was done now to make sure all power guardians choose willbender - they need to sell the game

[Dadnir.5038]

To be fair trapper runes 6th bonus hurted the game more than anything.

- Ranger was the first to see it's traps nerfed in order to tone down the effect of the runes. Their traps used to be set at range and It was very good in WvW especially.

- Thief had it's traps first gain very low damages on trigger to reveal the thief because of the stealth. Then they even changed traps to preparation because thiefs were simply setting their trap away from their foes and using other tools to apply damaging conditions without being revealed. All due to trapper runes.

- Then there were the myriad of complains about DH and trapper runes, leading to multiple nerfs to DH and core guardian (obviously).

I'd say that reducing stealth to 1s is an acceptable move against this runeset. Would have prefered a whole new 6th bonus but, nonetheless, minimizing stealth duration also work.

[The Boz.2038]

50 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

To be fair trapper runes 6th bonus hurted the game more than anything.

This.

To anyone that missed it; the build wasn't "strong", the build was *toxic*. 

But instead of fixing the rune, replacing the bonus, ANet decided to just nerf the stealth duration because !? I guess.

[SlayerXX.7138]

14 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

No these builds were not in the meta. They were back then considered as you called it “pub-stomper” builds that functioned against most noobs but couldn’t compete against decent players gold 3 and up.

Well well everyone besides the top 10% are noobs now?. If something is bad for around 90% of the PvP player base it seems fair to reign it in. Especially with the steam release on the horizon it is the right move to tone down such "toxic" builds.

Sure we could say f the noobs but then we sit here in a year with 5 people in matchmaking.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Well well everyone besides the top 10% are noobs now?. If something is bad for around 90% of the PvP player base it seems fair to reign it in. Especially with the steam release on the horizon it is the right move to tone down such "toxic" builds.

Sure we could say f the noobs but then we sit here in a year with 5 people in matchmaking.

This is your own imagined narrative about what is being said…

 

DH, objectively was not only considered a noob stomper, it is a noob stomper build.

 

Secondly, the purpose of what I’m taking about is that this build wouldn’t be a problem if other builds weren’t nerfed into uselessness like how it was 5-7 years ago. There were plenty of builds people could play that made DH not a problem at all. Now your nerfing this build into uselessness…don’t you see the pattern here?

 

The next thing that will happen is there will be some pubstomper build from EOD that appears and guess what? There will be no builds to contest it because they were all nerfed…this happens over and over and over again.

Seems to me that people have just forgotten just how good, that good builds were back in HoT. When people complained about builds back then, they had actual decent reasons about why they were so strong (chaining invulnerability for 20 seconds is pretty strong you know.) whereas today people are complaining about flamethrower…traps…minions…lol these were all considered noob builds back then and you’d get destroyed in a match if you played these.

Edited May 11, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Fueki.4753]

Come on Arenanet.

Do everyone a favour and remove that one second of stealth as well.

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

This is your own imagined narrative about what is being said…

Bronze, Silver, Gold and Plat 3 division each. We don´t count legendary as that has like 5 guys in it. Makes 12 divisions. Bronze + Silver + Gold 1 + gold 2 = 8. Next step: 8/12 = 66.66%. But ranking system work like a bell curve. So most people are in Silver 2/3 and gold 1/2. So its probably like 80-90%. Maybe just 80 who know the exact numbers.

 

18 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

builds that functioned against most noobs but couldn’t compete against decent players gold 3 and up.

So at least 66% are noobs by your own definition. And a maximum of 33.33% are only decent or better.

 

You have to realize you are a good gamer who plays the game probably for years. Its like you expect  a preschooler to solve a equations or lift 40 Kilos. Just because it is easy for you with your accumulated growth doesn't mean it is for someone starting to PvP.

  

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Secondly, the purpose of what I’m taking about is that this build wouldn’t be a problem if other builds weren’t nerfed into uselessness(for high skilled play) like how it was 5-7 years ago. There were plenty of builds people could play that made DH not a problem(for high skilled players) at all. Now your nerfing this build into uselessness…don’t you see the pattern here?

I only see the pattern that you dont understand what a silver player really is. I´m sure that and the rest of your post makes sense if the majority of the PvP base would play on plat Level. But they simply don´t.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Albi.7250

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

Bronze, Silver, Gold and Plat 3 division each. We don´t count legendary as that has like 5 guys in it. Makes 12 divisions. Bronze + Silver + Gold 1 + gold 2 = 8. Next step: 8/12 = 66.66%. But ranking system work like a bell curve. So most people are in Silver 2/3 and gold 1/2. So its probably like 80-90%. Maybe just 80 who know the exact numbers.

 

So at least 66% are noobs by your own definition. And a maximum of 33.33% are only decent or better.

 

You have to realize you are a good gamer who plays the game probably for years. Its like you expect  a preschooler to solve a equations or lift 40 Kilos. Just because it is easy for you with your accumulated growth doesn't mean it is for someone starting to PvP.

 

 

 

Again...you are lost in some narrative that nobody is talking about...

 

First point: If you were to poll the community of 2016 and you asked "Is Trap DH a noob stomper build?", the majority of them would say "Yes it is a noob-stomper build."

 

The second point is that aside from what people actually thought of the build, it is also objectively a noob-stomper build because it shares the same objective traits as other noob-stomper builds:

 

A) It's easy to use

B) it uses very little buttons to accomplish it's goals

c) it's very easy to understand how the build works, and how to counter it.

 

The comment you made has nothing to do with what I said, and has no relevance to the conversation being made here by me. I don't even have a response to the subject matter your introducing in your comment because I don't even have that stance on the topic. The only stance I've held on the subject has been that pro players (top 1%)  aren't qualified to make balance decisions. This is in complete opposition to the stance your trying to enforce upon me to have in your narrative.

 

Feels like I'm on Fox being interviewed by someone twisting my own words around to concoct some fake news that didn't happen. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684