Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And yet i have seen groups that pretty much failed every single breakbar and were slow in reacting to tail, and still cleared with more than 5 minutes left on the clock, and those that were doing those mechanics pretty much perfectly and ran out of time while still in double digit percentage of hps left. With the intermediate phases (like wisps and champions) taking about the same time for boh groups. It was not the "doing mechanics properly" that allowed the former to succeed, and not failing them that prevented the latter from doing the same. The only meaningful difference was the dps of the top 10-20 squad members.

Is everyone failing to the mechanics, including the top 10-20 squad members as well? DE is unique that about half the squad can't really carry the other half. If you have 20 people doing everything they can while the rest are being swept away by waves, ignoring tail, etc you can't do it. 
I also mentioned in one of my responses above that if you rule out every reason for failing, but damage then your only improvement left is damage. If you sit at 2k DPS and do mechanics perfectly you can't expect a win handed to you. 

So, we circled back to "damage matters as well", just like people have been saying, do mechanics and do some damage. Most squads already spam Stability so you can ignore Thornhearts for most of the fight, all you have to do is not stand in red, not that astronomical.

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure, but the required damage threshold is really easy to pass. If you fail those nowadays, it's never due to lack of damage, but only due to failing mechanics.

So.. deal enough damage and do mechanics? Exactly what people say about DE, glad we agree.

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

True. There are however many squads that pre-screen their members in other ways (like gathering through "secret means" and areas other than DE, and not putting themselves on LFG).

Or those who wanted to do it simply moved on? Having to organize ""secretly"" to make sure the people in your squad can do basic things is not worth it.

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You apparently missed the whole "stepstones to raids" idea DE is part of.

If DE was stepping stone into Raids the required DPS would be atleast 20k, not 7k, you'd need healers, you'd need people to do specific roles. Needing 10-10 people with Alac and Quickness, having to deal atleast 7k DPS and having to kill 2-3 bosses at the same time iis around Shiverpeak Pass level. 

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It has to be nerfed to the point where the average ad-hoc squad has a significant chance of succeeding. Success rates of organized and hyperoptimized squads are meaningless for the majority of the OW community, after all.

And the meta was nerfed, multiple times.

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I also mentioned in one of my responses above that if you rule out every reason for failing, but damage then your only improvement left is damage. If you sit at 2k DPS and do mechanics perfectly you can't expect a win handed to you. 

 

Yes , open world will teach people to survive + do cc + hit with any big hit attack off the cd + watch out their surroundings for incoming attacks  

Learning to do Rotations is a pretty secondary  mechanic ... This is where the instanced  content will come up....

 

Increasing the dps , to cheese the mechanics  (like beating W1-W4 under 5 min) , it will be the community efford to  outstart the devs .

Or by using easy LI builds , will help people that has physical problems or like Sneb when he first started where he didnt' have KP and the training groups were dying left and right and he "wanted more" and felt stuck .

Li builts can exist for people that have the "hunger" for more .... not force the whole community to become Raiders

 

(cya in 8 hours)

Edited June 1, 2022 by Luci.7018

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

10 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Yes , open world will teach people to survive + do cc + hit with any big hit attack off the cd + watch out their surroundings for incoming attacks  

Well, yes, in Seitung the first renown heart is there to teach people how to CC and how to survive(dodge attacks), it even teaches you how to use combo fields.

12 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Learning to do Rotations is a pretty secondary  mechanic ... This is where the instanced  content will come up....

You don't need to do a rotation to reach 7k DPS. 😄

12 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Increasing the dps , to cheese the mechanics  (like beating W1-W4 under 5 min) , it will be the community efford to  outstart the devs .

High DPS isn't cheesing mechanics my guy, unless you mean skipping updraft on Gorse, which, can be done if you hit about 60% of most DPS builds' benchmark. 

14 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Or by using easy LI builds , will help people that has physical problems or like Sneb when he first started where he didnt' have KP and the training groups were dying left and right and he "wanted more" and felt stuck .

Li builts can exist for people that have the "hunger" for more .... not force the whole community to become Raiders

So, what is the problem with LI builds then? That you can deal damage without having to do much? That's the point of LI builds. 

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You don't need to do a rotation to reach 7k DPS. 😄

How much hp the Soo Wun has ? 36 million HP ? How , they calculated that the average dps must be 6k ?

If it has 36millio and i have to waste 4 sec to deal the tail , in the 5th sec i must do 30k dps in 1 sec (4 wasted sec on tail x 6000 + 6000(on the 5th sec) and then inj the 6th=6000 , 7th=6000 etc  . Otherwise i am "debt" every time he uses tail or switches places and "i need more time"

 

Quote

High DPS isn't cheesing mechanics my guy, unless you mean skipping updraft on Gorse, which, can be done if you hit about 60% of most DPS builds' benchmark. 

If the content is created with doing 9k dps i  mind  and someone does 18 and finish it under 5 min , it's cheesing it

Quote

So, what is the problem with LI builds then? That you can deal damage without having to do much? That's the point of LI builds. 

Which games force you to do 7k dps  in Normal-LFR mode ?

WoW and FF14 , goal , in the easy modes is to have fun and learn the mechanics and the healers will do the rest .

Edited June 1, 2022 by Luci.7018

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Luci.7018 said:

How much hp the Soo Wun has ? 36 million HP ? How , they calculated that the average dps must be 6k ?

If it has 36millio and i have to waste 4 sec to deal the tail , in the 5th sec i must do 30k dps in 1 sec (4 wasted sec on tail x 6000 + 6000(on the 5th sec) and then inj the 6th=6000 , 7th=6000 etc  . Otherwise i am "debt" every time he uses tail or switches places and "i need more time"

You have zero idea what you're going on about. 
You forgot Exposed, which increases your DPS by 30% while it's up on her, and it's pretty generous. If you had 20 minutes to do the fight without mechanics, no splits or anything 1k DPS would be enough. That's why it's 7k, accounting for ~5 minutes of splits, greens, etc.
Here's a video, I don't really see any of them doing 30k DPS on Soo-Won, more like ~15k at best.

1 hour ago, Luci.7018 said:

If the content is created with doing 9k dps i  mind  and someone does 18 and finish it under 5 min , it's cheesing it

Except Raids were not created with 9k DPS in mind, if you look up any videos about Raids from 2015-2016 you'll see groups clearing it in faster than 5 minutes. 

1 hour ago, Luci.7018 said:

Which games force you to do 7k dps  in Normal-LFR mode ?

WoW and FF14 , goal , in the easy modes is to have fun and learn the mechanics and the healers will do the rest .

Ah, I see where your logic is from, "DPS doesn't have to worry much the healers will carry" translates well to "I don't have to contribute! Others will do it"

Edited June 1, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

I also mentioned in one of my responses above that if you rule out every reason for failing, but damage then your only improvement left is damage. If you sit at 2k DPS and do mechanics perfectly you can't expect a win handed to you. 

Indeed. But while mechanics are something you can learn to do better in-game, better dps is not. Besides, again, by the point you are able to see that lack of dps is your problem, it is no longer your problem anymore. The people that keep failing generally do not know what they're doing wrong. I've seen a lot of players that genuinely think that there's some mechanics t that fight they just keep missing, and get baffled when they are told that no, all the mechanics were done perfectly fine.

They don't see that they, personally, do not do enough dps. They only see that the whole group failed to kill the boss in time, but have no idea why.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

So, we circled back to "damage matters as well", just like people have been saying, do mechanics and do some damage. Most squads already spam Stability so you can ignore Thornhearts for most of the fight, all you have to do is not stand in red, not that astronomical.

And yet groups do that, and still fail. It's not "damage matters as well" case. It's "damage is king, everything else is secondary" approach that works here.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

So.. deal enough damage and do mechanics? Exactly what people say about DE, glad we agree.

The difference is the level of that "enough damage". For DE that level is way, way higher than for those other mentioned metas.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Or those who wanted to do it simply moved on? Having to organize ""secretly"" to make sure the people in your squad can do basic things is not worth it.

Yes, most of the people this event might have been for have already moved on and stopped coming. Of those that do remain however a lot are still doing exactly that.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If DE was stepping stone into Raids the required DPS would be atleast 20k, not 7k, you'd need healers, you'd need people to do specific roles.

The succesful squads go with full raid-tier boons, and often with tail-killing group (special role), as well as pre-dividing the supgroups for champs on split. Their dps usually is also raid-tier as well.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Needing 10-10 people with Alac and Quickness, having to deal atleast 7k DPS and having to kill 2-3 bosses at the same time iis around Shiverpeak Pass level. 

Shiverpeak is at least two tiers of difficulty lower. And the 7k you bring up is pure fiction. Any group that is capable of doing only 7k player average DPS during burst phases is guaranteed to fail.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And the meta was nerfed, multiple times.

If you start from high enough level, and nerfs are minimal, you can keep nerfing for a long time and still have the event be overtuned. DE is a good example of that.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Here's a video, I don't really see any of them doing 30k DPS on Soo-Won, more like ~15k at best.

Look again. Peak dps for 1st dps place was around 30k. Peak dps for the 10th place in the log was around 25k. During burst phases those top 10 players did not go below 15k. Lower dps was when they were not attacking the boss, or when the Arc glitched  (due to it not being a fight hardcoded into Arc and the streamer having to use manual logging feature, which often fails on target switches)

Quote

Except Raids were not created with 9k DPS in mind, if you look up any videos about Raids from 2015-2016 you'll see groups clearing it in faster than 5 minutes. 

Indeed. The "sufficient" dps for Vale Guardian is around 7k. Notice the similarity with "sufficient dps" (calculated the same way) for DE?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Look again. Peak dps for 1st dps place was around 30k. Peak dps for the 10th place in the log was around 25k. During burst phases those top 10 players did not go below 15k.

1-2 people at 30k during one burst, but the top 10 wasn't above 15k. Other bursts around 20k. Outside bursts it's 6-9k.
You're looking at the target DPS, right?
The top portion honestly looks worse than most groups I've been in. You get one person at 30k, then it falls sharp down to 10k. 

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Indeed. The "sufficient" dps for Vale Guardian is around 7k. Notice the similarity with "sufficient dps" for DE?

On VG you have 10 players for 22 mil, on DE you have 50 for 36 million. On DE you have Jade Buff and contributor buff giving you free +25% damage. Not the best comparison.
Edit: You also have twice as much time on DE.

Edited June 1, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Silent.6137]

24 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, most of the people this event might have been for have already moved on and stopped coming. Of those that do remain however a lot are still doing exactly that.

You know this, how? You have some data to show that most have already moved on?

24 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The succesful squads go with full raid-tier boons, and often with tail-killing group (special role), as well as pre-dividing the supgroups for champs on split. Their dps usually is also raid-tier as well.

What is raid-tier boons? Try to get a quick and an alac into each sub, if possible, and then fill in with whatever's left? Since that's what most squads do at this meta. I've yet to see any squad that has a tail-killing group, and I've join at least 50 to 60 different groups on my personal successful runs. And what exactly is raid-tier dps? The 6 or 7k average required?

Edited June 1, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Luci.7018]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

You have zero idea what you're going on about. 
You forgot Exposed, which increases your DPS by 30% while it's up on her, and it's pretty generous. If you had 20 minutes to do the fight without mechanics, no splits or anything 1k DPS would be enough. That's why it's 7k, accounting for ~5 minutes of splits, greens, etc.
Here's a video, I don't really see any of them doing 30k DPS on Soo-Won, more like ~15k at best.

Except Raids were not created with 9k DPS in mind, if you look up any videos about Raids from 2015-2016 you'll see groups clearing it in faster than 5 minutes. 

Ah, I see where your logic is from, "DPS doesn't have to worry much the healers will carry" translates well to "I don't have to contribute! Others will do it"

If the boss has 36 million, and I will waste 4 sec to face the tail or if she flips in the other side, then in the 5th sec I must do 30k. Otherwise I must do 9k from now one and that requirements is increased each time she flips/tails + I cannot do 30k as baseline. 

If a person than use 15k from the start, then he doesn't have to worry abd he will ahead of the scedual 

For getting the 6k, I will use the squad buffs and the 20% from the map. How can the 30% bonus from cc her will make my 6k into 30k to face the loss of time? 

 

Popele in the easy normal mode in wow and ff14 will learn the mechanics. They are not forced to use spec for increased damage. The crusual is the mechanics, not some increased numbers the raiders propose.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If you had 20 minutes to do the fight without mechanics, no splits or anything 1k DPS would be enough.

I did the math behind it:

36 million hp divided by 50 people = 720.000 hp per person.

20 minutes has 1200 seconds. 

720.000 hp divided by 1200 seconds is = 600 hp per second.

So yeah, it's not even 1K damage per second under those circumstances 🙂 

[Luci.7018]

7 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I did the math behind it:

36 million hp divided by 50 people = 720.000 hp per person.

20 minutes has 1200 seconds. 

720.000 hp divided by 1200 seconds is = 600 hp per second.

So yeah, it's not even 1K damage per second under those circumstances 🙂 

Ah nice. 

BTW the first video of teapot where he tried soo won, where he said " we are going to use raid spec, no EoD bull@@ specs,

how much time they left it on the clock?

It was 1:30? (I am trying to flame him, because he cannot make even 1000 dps) 

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

This thread again? 

Really?  

DE meta is not gonna get nerfed again. 

It should not get nerfed again. 

People complaining are in the absolute minority compared to people ingame that actually clear it. 

Either step up your skill-level or accept that this meta is beyond your capabilities.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Ah nice. 

BTW the first video of teapot where he tried soo won, where he said " we are going to use raid spec, no EoD bull@@ specs,

how much time they left it on the clock?

It was 1:30? (I am trying to flame him, because he cannot make even 1000 dps) 

You do realize Teapot is creating content right? That's what all his bravado is about. He's also posted videos with 3 and 5 minutes on the timer left. This was before the nerfs and adjustments. His comment about EoD specs should have been a giveaway given most of them are some of the strongest specs in game atm.

Many players in semi organized, aka joining a specific map via the LFG which has a commander which asks for specific boons and makes groups, see regular clears with 3-6 minutes left on the clock.

The dps requirement is NOT something you should be riding and going on about if you want to argue against this metas difficulty. It's basically only there to ensure that players are not supposed to afk or fail to many mechanics consistently.

Groups wiping due to time are not failing the dps check due to builds, classes or gear. They are failing the mechanics which in turn cuts into the dps uptime they have.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Luci.7018]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

You do realize Teapot is creating content right? That's what all his bravado is about. He's also posted videos with 3 and 5 minutes on the timer left. This was before the nerfs and adjustments. His comment about EoD specs should have been a giveaway given most of them are some of the strongest specs in game atm.

 

Many players in semi organized, aka joining a specific map via the LFG which has a commander which asks for specific boons and makes groups, see regular clears with 3-6 minutes left on the clock.

 

The dps requirement is NOT something you should be riding and going on about if you want to argue against this metas difficulty. It's basically only there to ensure that players are not supposed to afk or fail to many mechanics consistently.

Before it was nerfed the same raiders here, where saying it shouldn't be nerfed. And that people should step up their game. 

 

The open world is there to teach the mechanics, not force them to do dps s, so they don't afk. 

The dps should stay on raids

[Linken.6345]

36 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Before it was nerfed the same raiders here, where saying it shouldn't be nerfed. And that people should step up their game. 

 

The open world is there to teach the mechanics, not force them to do dps s, so they don't afk. 

The dps should stay on raids

So you want to hug enemies to death?

Or should you side steping a puddle/ jumping a wave to avoid a mechanic hurt the enemy?

[Erise.5614]

2 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

On VG you have 10 players for 22 mil, on DE you have 50 for 36 million. On DE you have Jade Buff and contributor buff giving you free +25% damage. Not the best comparison.
Edit: You also have twice as much time on DE.

If the numbers were as you claim then no one would complain.

For DE you have 50 for ~36 million per phase + 16 million for each of the 5 mini bosses. 

Average DPS uptime for those 255 million HP is ~8 minutes. Probably still a bit less than VG.

But you misunderstood those numbers and ended up overstating that difference by an extreme amount. The main difference between the two is the higher risk of wipe during VG. DPS requirements ought to be within 10% or so.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Cyninja.2954]

52 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Before it was nerfed the same raiders here, where saying it shouldn't be nerfed. And that people should step up their game. 

I don't think either of us want to get into what some players posted on these forums pre ners in regards to the DE meta.

 

Suffice to say, death threats and some of the most vile profanities imaginable were given from some players (what happened to all the lovely and friendly players making up this community? Oh right, suddenly all of those ducked away). Others defending a meta they enjoy hardly makes a dent (and while I disagree, because as stated by myself I'm in favor of having easier open world content I fully understand players who wnjoy more difficult or engaging meta bosses).

 

Nonetheless, the developers did adjust the meta and made it easier.

Quote

 

The open world is there to teach the mechanics, not force them to do dps s, so they don't afk. 

The dps should stay on raids

 

As I stated earlier, and which you yourself in part even brought up:

failing a mechanic costs far more dps. If players failed less mechanics, the dps requirement would not be an issue.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Silent.6137]

57 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Before it was nerfed the same raiders here, where saying it shouldn't be nerfed. And that people should step up their game.

You are equating people who likes more complex metas, as opposed to vanilla guarantee win meta, as all raiders?

People who likes harder and/or more complex events are not exclusive to one type of groups. The gamut of the player base range from extremely hardcore to extremely casual. Of the hardcore, there are bound to be those who dislike raids, just as there are the casuals who love raids. I'm by no means a casual player and I don't do raids for various reasons. Just because someone takes the opposite view as you and likes the meta, does not make them a raider.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Cuks.8241]

44 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

The open world is there to teach the mechanics, not force them to do dps s, so they don't afk. 

Teach mechanics without doing dmg? What does that even mean? These are not 2 separate things if your goal is to kill the boss.

Also why would whole open world be limited to only teaching mechanics? We have 10 years of open world content. How much do not stand in red circle tutorials do you need?

I guess the players afk at octovine mastered their mechanics. They found a spot where they are safe and others kill the boss for them. Now they are ready for the next step. Do dmg.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Luci.7018 said:

If the boss has 36 million, and I will waste 4 sec to face the tail or if she flips in the other side, then in the 5th sec I must do 30k. Otherwise I must do 9k from now one and that requirements is increased each time she flips/tails + I cannot do 30k as baseline. 

If a person than use 15k from the start, then he doesn't have to worry abd he will ahead of the scedual 

For getting the 6k, I will use the squad buffs and the 20% from the map. How can the 30% bonus from cc her will make my 6k into 30k to face the loss of time? 

 

Popele in the easy normal mode in wow and ff14 will learn the mechanics. They are not forced to use spec for increased damage. The crusual is the mechanics, not some increased numbers the raiders propose.

That 7k is with splits, tail, whatever else included. In the video I linked - the one you pretty much ignored - you can see that the target DPS is around 8-9k the majority of the time, only going up during bursts.

51 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Before it was nerfed the same raiders here, where saying it shouldn't be nerfed. And that people should step up their game. 

 

The open world is there to teach the mechanics, not force them to do dps s, so they don't afk. 

The dps should stay on raids

I love how you claim I wasn't all for nuking the meta on release 😄

I clearly didn't want it originally to be nerfed or anything. I was 100% against it. Totally.
Edit: /s for those who don't bother checking two of my comments I linked.

Edited June 1, 2022 by IAmNotMatthew.1058

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

As I stated earlier, and which you yourself in part even brought up:

failing a mechanic costs far more dps. If players failed less mechanics, the dps requirement would not be an issue.

As a superlative, this statement is wrong. The DPS requirements are a bit above what average OW PUGs manage to do. Flawless reaction to mechanics would further reduce the amount of failed maps. Sure. But there would still be issues.

On the other hand. If everyone was assigned raid builds. Then mechanics wouldn't fail as much and the event would actually succeed most of the time.

Not that I consider that a valid solution. But my point is. 20% DPS downtime doesn't matter if you only deal 4k DPS. A single high performance DPS player gets twice that as bonus DPS from dragon's end contributor and for them every second downtime is noticeable. But, for example, the amount of players who down on the first slam has very little impact on completion rates. 

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

That 7k is with splits, tail, whatever else included. In the video I linked - the one you pretty much ignored - you can see that the target DPS is around 8-9k the majority of the time, only going up during bursts.

That is true. The lowest average DPS I recorded was including 3 tails and 5 bites for about 6.8k average DPS throughout all attack phases (40 seconds left, but half as many bites as I recorded in most of my runs. So the success was quite lucky indeed).

However, even that group had one burn phase with 12.5k average DPS. Reaching 7k average requires significantly higher potential. 

Edit: The necro run has, by the way, 9695 average DPS when we look at only the attack phases (Numbers calculated in reverse by calculating attack phase duration and HP removed to avoid DPS meter inaccuracy. Assuming 55 players dealing damage). The main thing that saved them time was having to deal with only one tail.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Cuks.8241]

It would be interesting to see the split in posters from EU and NA. Because all this QQ doesnt resemble my experience from the game at all. I have been involved in only 1 fail run in a long time and it was the kind of group that would fail some other metas also. And from the start I havent seen that much toxicity. Yeah a complainer here or there but nothing drastic. Drakkar for example was similar at start.

EU here.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, Cuks.8241 said:

It would be interesting to see the split in posters from EU and NA. Because all this QQ doesnt resemble my experience from the game at all. I have been involved in only 1 fail run in a long time and it was the kind of group that would fail some other metas also. And from the start I havent seen that much toxicity. Yeah a complainer here or there but nothing drastic. Drakkar for example was similar at start.

EU here.

Funny how that is, because i have seen a lot of toxicity, and a lot of fails. And i am EU as well.