REWARDS at endgame

[Expertus.5746]

1 minute ago, Diak Atoli.2085 said:

'Raids' and 'dungeons' are endgame content in other MMOs. Cool. So? They are not the endgame content for GW2. GW2's PvE endgame includes raids, dungeons, strikes, and fractals. It also includes world boss, bounties, map completion, achievements, puzzles, Living Story, and fashion.

TL:DR - GW2 is designed so that everything is 'endgame content.' It is not other MMOs. Stop comparing it.

Aight, just read back my comments.
I didnt split up like that. Strikes are raid bosses, so it went under the name of raid. Fractals, dungeons, and how its called, the lw5  escort events, that nobody does... anyway, these went under the name of dungeons.

[Seera.5916]

11 minutes ago, Expertus.5746 said:

Aight, just read back my comments.
I didnt split up like that. Strikes are raid bosses, so it went under the name of raid. Fractals, dungeons, and how its called, the lw5  escort events, that nobody does... anyway, these went under the name of dungeons.

And the second part of their post was that everything else GW2 has to offer is included in its end game.

You can't dismiss a good portion of the game's end game just because it detracts from your argument.

You can't claim that GW2 has the same end game as other MMO's just because that's what MMO's are "supposed" to have. Please find me an official source that states that MMO's end game has to be dungeons and raids. If so, you just stated the Black Desert Online doesn't have them. So in that case, is that not an MMO? Because its end game isn't dungeons and raids? You can't say Black Desert Online is fine to not have dungeons and raiding as its end game and still be an MMO and then say GW2 can't include other things in its end game besides dungeons and raid. It doesn't work like that. Just because an MMO has dungeons and raids, doesn't mean that suddenly that's all that can be considered end game.

You're shooting yourself in the foot for your argument just because you want to dismiss the majority of the game's end game as end game.

All you have to say is you'd like to see more players playing dungeons and raids and therefore you would like ANet to increase the unique rewards for those to try to get more players playing it.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Seera.5916

[Expertus.5746]

Regarding to any "endgame" related comment, just go and read my prev comments, i explained it very well.
Beside that, its not the point of the post. You can call fishing in wow, or gathering in bdo endgame, but it wont be. (And here if you want to question that statement, i can politely send you back to my prev comments to read them again.)
Gw2 is not unique in that stuff. Its just an mmo with almost fully horizontal progression, and because of that, its way harder to give players good rewards, especially because it relies hardly on the cash shop, so even skins can be given away as loot.

[Seera.5916]

5 minutes ago, Expertus.5746 said:

Regarding to any "endgame" related comment, just go and read my prev comments, i explained it very well.
Beside that, its not the point of the post. You can call fishing in wow, or gathering in bdo endgame, but it wont be. (And here if you want to question that statement, i can politely send you back to my prev comments to read them again.)
Gw2 is not unique in that stuff. Its just an mmo with almost fully horizontal progression, and because of that, its way harder to give players good rewards, especially because it relies hardly on the cash shop, so even skins can be given away as loot.

You explained your position well. However, you need to realize that you're view of end game isn't the actual end game for GW2. You can point to your previous comments all you want, but that won't change the end game for GW2 at all.

Your post is about rewards at end game. But you can't ignore the rewards from a majority of end game just because you want more rewards in what you want to do at end game. They offer a lot of rewards in their end game. It's just not all stuck behind the end game that you want to do.

Just because players state that end game is related to fashion ala calling the game Fashion Wars 2, doesn't make the end game of GW2 just fashion related stuff.

Successful MMO's these days have other stuff in their end game besides dungeons and raids because they've found that more people want to do those other things more than raiding or doing dungeons. The ones that don't are in the minority these days and are likely older MMO's.

Every time ANet puts something unique behind raids or strikes, there's a high chance that a very vocal part of the community will come out and complain about it. It happened with legendary armor because they wanted something that could be obtained without doing strikes or raids for PvE legendary armor.

Do I have a problem with ANet in the future adding more unique rewards to raids and strikes? No. I'll be sad if it's something that would work for one of my characters because I don't see myself doing raids or strikes. I won't complain about it and ask for it to change.

Just they can't put everything end game reward related behind raids and strikes. They do that, I'll start complaining. Because there's more to end game for GW2 than raids and strikes.

[Silent.6137]

15 minutes ago, Expertus.5746 said:

Regarding to any "endgame" related comment, just go and read my prev comments, i explained it very well.

You explained it very well only to yourself. You assumed your definitions is the only correct one. By most definitions, Endgame in MMOs are all the things available for progressing your character after you've reached max level. That includes not just your narrow definitions.

[Expertus.5746]

3 minutes ago, Seera.5916 said:

Every time ANet puts something unique behind raids or strikes, there's a high chance that a very vocal part of the community will come out and complain about it. It happened with legendary armor because they wanted something that could be obtained without doing strikes or raids for PvE legendary armor.

Do I have a problem with ANet in the future adding more unique rewards to raids and strikes? No. I'll be sad if it's something that would work for one of my characters because I don't see myself doing raids or strikes. I won't complain about it and ask for it to change.

Just they can't put everything end game reward related behind raids and strikes. They do that, I'll start complaining. Because there's more to end game for GW2 than raids and strikes.

I wouldnt ask for unique rewards, my idea was buying account bound cosmetics, that you could buy from overflow right now, which wouldnt be acc bound.
The problem is that, again, the time investment out of any content you can do ingame, are the highest in raids/strikes (and fractal, but thats worthy content) while they are, if you are not in an extremly good group, worse g/h than drizzelwood. Clearing all 7 wings under 2h is rare, maybe half a dozen of statics can do that in the entire game. 50g/h is really good, but to get to that point they were raiding for years. They most likely have perfect game knowledge, have every build in the game, and can play them very well. Comparing that preparation, and requirement to drizzelwood, and then their reward...
We have a completly useless currency in LI, after 6 months of raiding+doing strikes, it looses all of its purpose. Just a filler in your storage. I really dont think so, being able to spend them on accound bound cosmetics infusions would be any bad for the game.

[Seera.5916]

2 minutes ago, Expertus.5746 said:

I wouldnt ask for unique rewards, my idea was buying account bound cosmetics, that you could buy from overflow right now, which wouldnt be acc bound.
The problem is that, again, the time investment out of any content you can do ingame, are the highest in raids/strikes (and fractal, but thats worthy content) while they are, if you are not in an extremly good group, worse g/h than drizzelwood. Clearing all 7 wings under 2h is rare, maybe half a dozen of statics can do that in the entire game. 50g/h is really good, but to get to that point they were raiding for years. They most likely have perfect game knowledge, have every build in the game, and can play them very well. Comparing that preparation, and requirement to drizzelwood, and then their reward...
We have a completly useless currency in LI, after 6 months of raiding+doing strikes, it looses all of its purpose. Just a filler in your storage. I really dont think so, being able to spend them on accound bound cosmetics infusions would be any bad for the game.

I feel that for that the effort needed for raids and strikes that there should be some other cosmetic unique account bound rewards other than legendary armor for players to earn.

And this is someone who doesn't play raids or strikes and would therefore not be able to get said unique rewards.

It's basically just legendary armor that LI can be used to purchase right? Or what else can be currently obtained?

[Expertus.5746]

6 minutes ago, Seera.5916 said:

I feel that for that the effort needed for raids and strikes that there should be some other cosmetic unique account bound rewards other than legendary armor for players to earn.

And this is someone who doesn't play raids or strikes and would therefore not be able to get said unique rewards.

Nah, not unique. Rewards that already exist in the game. And strictly acc bound.

8 minutes ago, Seera.5916 said:

It's basically just legendary armor that LI can be used to purchase right? Or what else can be currently obtained?

Nada. LI is only for leg armor.

[Seera.5916]

1 minute ago, Expertus.5746 said:

Nah, not unique. Rewards that already exist in the game. And strictly acc bound.

Nada. LI is only for leg armor.

I'd be fine with that, but they should also get some unique rewards as well outside of PvE legendary armor.

[Erise.5614]

You can get a legendary ring as well. There's a 1:1 conversion for legendary divinations.

Though if you play all raid wings you'll probably not need those anymore by the time you have excess LI.

(Which is 42 weeks of clearing all 4 HoT raid wings or 33 weeks of clearing all raids and all HoT strikes)

Yeah. Another use for LI could be nice. Though an infinite one would be better. Regardless of what they add, hardcore raiders will run out of rewards yet again before soon.

Something infinite could be more useful. Like converting it directly to gold by making them tradable or indirectly by allowing their conversion into a tradable mat.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Duglaive.5236]

If you are playing this game for its rewards, i.e. drops of any kind, from any game mode, end game or otherwise ... Well, compared to any other MMO I've played, you're wasting your time. 

 

The rewards of GW2 lie in its art, soundtracks, combat style, and the general friendliness of its in-game community. Imo anyway.

[ArchonWing.9480]

15 hours ago, Taclism.2406 said:

Many players cannot help approaching a game as an optimization puzzle. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game - Sid Meier.

Actually, Soren Johnson said that xD But close enough. Incidentally his version of Civ is also frequently optimized the heck of but very much loved. So they realized it was inevitable and went along with it.

Of course, the Civ franchise, including the aforementioned, Sid Meier also understood that players love to be rewarded but hated being punished.

6:10

""When you reward the player... the player gladly accepts that, doesn't question if they earned it... players accept anything you give them gladly, and feel it was their own clever play.  On the other hand, if something bad happens to the player, your game is broken, there's something horribly wrong, the game is cheating.""

 

And that's also how Civ evolved. It tends to give bonuses and rewards and setbacks are usually the lack of a reward instead of a penalty.

In the past they did try more of a historical simulator where your civilization would enter a dark age if you succeeded too well. But it didn't work because people didn't like being punished for doing well, realism be damned. So it was just golden age after golden age and so on.

Even when they brought Dark Ages  in Civ 6, there could still be positive effects of them, and they could result in Heroic Ages if you got into a Golden Age, which were like super Golden Ages.

He goes on to say that the player should feel that they're above average and doing well, and they're going to do even better as they get deeper in the game.

At the end of the day, the easiest way to make players feel good after achieving something difficult is to be rewarded so that they feel it was worth their time. And on a shallow level, gimme shinies!

I mean we certainly don't need the rewards that OP suggests, but it's only natural that some people care about gold/hour.

Edited June 5, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[displayname.8794]

Despite this post turning into a debate on what is and isn't endgame, I very much share the sentiment but doubt anything's going to change.
I spent most of my in game time doing raids, used to full clear + 5 CMs in 2,5h on a Monday and still logged multiple other days just to raid (losing gold in the process); to give an idea I could do largos (one of the worst bosses in the game lol) like 5-6 times a week cause I loved playing mirage and I just wanted to be better and better.
Over time, like every raider that hasn't quit yet, I gave up on the idea of having new content from time to time, even 3 bosses every 12-18 months.
Then I gave up on the idea of having steady balance patches, possibly with nerfs or buffs that didn't feel completely random or pointless.
With the 2 above gone, the only thing left were rewards. And I realised that raid rewards didn't FEEL good at all. What I was doing was basically just farm gold to fund the next legendary (tbh I didn't even like most of them but they're just the "arrival point" of progression in this game and have nice qol) or the next gemstore shiny, and I could only do that once a week. I asked myself why doesn't every raid wing have good themed armor skins that you can drop, like largos or djinn attire? Themed infusions like the ghostly? Anything that feels good when you drop it and it's cool enough to encourage people to try the content...
Eventually, after witnessing my friends quit one after the other, I stopped playing too.

 

It doesn't help that raids on this forum are a massive trigger and any suggestions made to improve the experience of veterans are just downvoted and spammed with confused reactions. Open world legendary armor acquired through auto attack spam? You're a hero and deserve to become president of the world. More exclusive rewards from instanced content? Nah raiders lives don't matter.

If you still have goals or friends to raid and have fun with, just focus on them and nothing else will matter. If you don't, I highly suggest to take a break and check from time to time to see if anything intrigues you. Imo, they focus too little on instanced content for it not to feel "lacking" in some way and if that's your only focus and don't care about achievement hunting/open world farms, this feels more like a side game.

[Rasimir.6239]

13 hours ago, Seera.5916 said:

I'd be fine with that, but they should also get some unique rewards as well outside of PvE legendary armor.

There are quite a number of skins and miniatures that you can only gain through raiding. Whether you like them or not is a matter of taste (e.g. I was "lucky" to drop the Vale Guardian greatsword once, which is hands down the ugliest gs skin I've ever seen 🤣), but to say there are no unique rewards to be had from raiding (or even just "no unique rewards outside of pve legendary armor and its unique skins) is plain wrong.

 

That said, I doubt adding more unique cosmetics to raids would change anything. Just like the existing ones, people would play a bit to get them (or even just outright buy them with their stockpiled li/ld/shards/whatever), then turn back to complaining that the gamemode isn't rewarding. One-off cosmetics simply don't work as longtime motivators.

[Dante.1508]

If its any consolation op owpve rewards are even worse... I laughed in map chat the other day that the event rewards are worse than mining some iron ore these days, and so many people agreed with me lol..

I mean a bit of iron is more useful than 99% of the trash we are given as rewards.. seriously.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I'm surprised the Black Lion chests and the Gemstore were not mentioned so far in this topic.

 

The entire structure of rewards in GW2 is based on the fact that most assets such as armor and weapon skins, QoL items, mount skins, and so on are exclusive Black Lion items. Most development in skins and what not go straight into the gemstore and not to be rewarded as part of the Achievement tab rewards table. In fact, what you can get as achievement rewards from merely playing is a very small amount of things compared to the vast number of Black Lion collections available on top of the prestige skins not part of any collections that you can only acquire through what is essentially GW2's soft lootbox system (in the sense that you can straight up buy most items with enough time spent going through the lootboxes).

 

Now, I don't mind the gemstore - I know very well it sustains GW2's model and I also love that I only paid for the gameplay contained in this game a single time per expansion. But it's undeniable that they hold back on a lot of rewards that could have been obtainable through gameplay and instead release it through the gemstore tables, and we cannot dissociate this from the fact that there are so little "shinies" available through the actual achievement rewards system in-game (Anet is constantly pressing for resources after all).

 

I don't know how to solve this, but it's important to acknowledge they are related instead of just asking for more gold and so on - we need more things that can feel earned in spite of how easy we think the game is, as I assure you buying something from the Black Lion after farming Dragonfall for weeks is strictly not the same feeling as earning the same skin through some in-game challenge even if the challenge was far easier than standing a few weeks of farming. Even Anet knows this, as they require you to spend 10k research notes to upgrade your Aurene weapon to an Elder Dragon one, but do not skip the actual gameplay process of doing events related to that Elder Dragon in order to "earn" your new skin. But again, because they are constantly optimizing for resources, the gemstore ends up getting (maybe more than it should?) focus.

Edited June 5, 2022 by maxwelgm.4315

[Cyninja.2954]

My recommendation, and this one is purely subjective but has worked for me so far, is as follows:

- don't hope/rely on Arenanet to change their approach to rewards. This games most challenging content is rewarded very unequally compared to some other content (most often significantly weaker outside of one time titles or cosmetic rewards). If the developers do decide to make some slight adjustments, great, yet highly unlikely.

- open world rewards for certain metas remains high, even afking in specific spots can yield significant gold/h at minimal effort

- alt account wealth sharing remains the highest gold/h at near no input

View those things as given. Consider them as mostly material providers to the market.

Where does that leave you then as player who enjoys more challenging content? It leaves you with:

- find likeminded players to clear content or just game together with. Switch it up, try to enjoy the content you play without worrying about the loot. 

- set longterm goals. I mean really LONGTERM, but make sure that they do not require a massive shift away from content you enjoy. Chuck away at them bit by bit.

- enjoy the easy content in the game to wind down while benefitting from the easy rewards/gold

- rotate builds, classes and roles for the content you enjoy

Here is what I am currently and in the past have been working on:

- weekly raids with a raid static of good chums for now close to 4 years

- occasional assistance to a more casual guild for raids and strikes

- occasional fractal CMs, T4s and recs, around 1-3 evenings per week. My daily CM+T4 time is years behind me due to time constraints

- map complete EoD maps on by now 26 characters for my current "longterm" goal (incert some meta map runnor messing around otherwise)

- occasinal WvW open tag joining 

- waiting on the alliance system to get back more into WvW (here is hoping)

- working on all 16 Aurene legendary weapons simultaneously (missing around 1,500 Ambergris and 34,000 Imperial Favor)

- playing new episodes for story and achievement completion as they come

 

and that is basically all there is to do here. That or take a break which is fine too.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Seera.5916]

4 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

There are quite a number of skins and miniatures that you can only gain through raiding. Whether you like them or not is a matter of taste (e.g. I was "lucky" to drop the Vale Guardian greatsword once, which is hands down the ugliest gs skin I've ever seen 🤣), but to say there are no unique rewards to be had from raiding (or even just "no unique rewards outside of pve legendary armor and its unique skins) is plain wrong.

 

That said, I doubt adding more unique cosmetics to raids would change anything. Just like the existing ones, people would play a bit to get them (or even just outright buy them with their stockpiled li/ld/shards/whatever), then turn back to complaining that the gamemode isn't rewarding. One-off cosmetics simply don't work as longtime motivators.

I wasn't saying that there aren't unique rewards. I was saying that I would be fine with them ADDING unique rewards to raiding that aren't already there.

[Rogue.8235]

The problem with playing games simply for the rewards, is that once you get the rewards, that's it.  The solution of increasing rewards is not a viable solution.  Again, once people get the new rewards, that's it.  There will never be a reward-centric solution that will last indefinitely, because reward-centric players will attain it and ask for more.  

This is why you can't really design a game around reward-centric players.  There is no infinite replayability because the player's care only for rewards, that they will attain, and care for nothing else.  The replayability of other games is the gameplay itself.  For example, fighting games aren't about unlocking rewards, but about mastering characters and the actual fight mechanics of the game.  Here, GW2 does have replayability with it's combat mechanics, ability to play all professions in many ways, and many ways to play the game with each profession.  However, GW2 players that are only concerned with grinding for stuff will always burnout or reach the end-goal.  Without enjoyment of the gameplay itself, there is no way to retain these players.  The only way is to create an infinite pool of "stuff" for these players to chase.  This is not a viable solution because dev time is a finite resource.  

 

This is why I disagree with any call to make things more rewarding to "increase engame population."  It won't create a lasting population and cannot sustain population growth.  Again, this is because players will attain the rewards and "have nothing else to do" because there are no other new rewards to chase.  Reward-centric players are not a market segment that you can keep without resorting to extreme levels of grind, which is complained about anyways.

 

 

[Fuchslein.8639]

22 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

The problem with playing games simply for the rewards, is that once you get the rewards, that's it.  The solution of increasing rewards is not a viable solution.  Again, once people get the new rewards, that's it.  There will never be a reward-centric solution that will last indefinitely, because reward-centric players will attain it and ask for more.  

This is why you can't really design a game around reward-centric players.  There is no infinite replayability because the player's care only for rewards, that they will attain, and care for nothing else.  The replayability of other games is the gameplay itself.  For example, fighting games aren't about unlocking rewards, but about mastering characters and the actual fight mechanics of the game.  Here, GW2 does have replayability with it's combat mechanics, ability to play all professions in many ways, and many ways to play the game with each profession.  However, GW2 players that are only concerned with grinding for stuff will always burnout or reach the end-goal.  Without enjoyment of the gameplay itself, there is no way to retain these players.  The only way is to create an infinite pool of "stuff" for these players to chase.  This is not a viable solution because dev time is a finite resource.  

 

This is why I disagree with any call to make things more rewarding to "increase engame population."  It won't create a lasting population and cannot sustain population growth.  Again, this is because players will attain the rewards and "have nothing else to do" because there are no other new rewards to chase.  Reward-centric players are not a market segment that you can keep without resorting to extreme levels of grind, which is complained about anyways.

 

 

But when this is true, how is it that the most played metas are also the most rewarding. And a lot of metas are strickt dead, because anet did fail to give good rewards.

I don't say more unique skins for raids would be good, because its true. The veterans would just straight up buy them from the vendor with all the LI they horded and other players would also catch up quite easy.

But you just can't compare Raids in the subject of g/h. Almost everything in Gw2 can be farmed. Even Fractal-Farms exist. But raids?

People are always talking about fun. But how is someone not having fun when he clears raids and helps newly's for almost nothing because he already had his clear?
I bet there are a lot only-pve players here in these Forum who hate on Raiders, who would be the first to complain when anet set the same reward system to the entyre game. Meaning, you can complete every meta only 1 time a week. And even then, PVE-players would have sooo~ much content. But even so, people would complain.

 

I know it's nice and everything and this is probaly true for a lot, but you can just look at the game and see that most players are reward driven players.

[Smart College Boy.3249]

On 6/4/2022 at 7:03 AM, Expertus.5746 said:

The reason endgame is dieing is because the lack of reward compared to the time investment is nowhere near worth it.

That's your view.

 

My view of endgame dying is players are tired of themepark endgame content and want the genre to take the next step. Something like Ashes of Creations is promising with their node system endgame loop (not sure they'll pull it off). AoC to me is probably what Guild Wars 3 would have been. Taking the living world to the next level. Player and NPC actions have a more long lasting impact on the world rather than recycling every 1 hour or so.

[Einsof.1457]

Idk man, I have got nearly 4000 hours clocked and I still haven't made a single legendary weapon, but I do have two legendary trinkets (working on my vision trinket now). I like to do my daily 2 gold, and do WvW and Spvp. I like to play new characters through the story and unlock all elite specs. I like to try new builds and goof around. I like to map explore and get keys for black lion chests. I like to unlock skins and do meta events in the open world. I like to run fractals as well. I like to raid once a week with a group of buddies I have made in-game. Guild Wars 2 raids never become outdated and that's actually amazing game design. All content in Guild Wars 2 is endgame, by the way, if you use other MMOs as comparison. 

 

I still haven't made a single legendary weapon, although I really want to. I feel like I have barely scratched the surface. I also want to get a TON more achievement points. I only have 15000 right now. I want to get all masteries, I only have 330 right now. What is the reward, you ask? For me, playing the game is the reward. It's fun. But getting new skins and looking cool is also a nice reward. Playing with my friends and cracking jokes while doing content is rewarding. If you want to do a theme park treadmill game where everything you do gets outdated 3 months later, then there are games for that. Guild Wars 2 ain't that and never will be.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Rogue.8235]

12 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

But when this is true, how is it that the most played metas are also the most rewarding. And a lot of metas are strickt dead, because anet did fail to give good rewards.

You have no idea what percentage of players do what activity in the game.  This statement, eluding to an assertion that most players in GW2 are reward-centric, is based on a hasty generalization fallacy.

12 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

I don't say more unique skins for raids would be good, because its true. The veterans would just straight up buy them from the vendor with all the LI they horded and other players would also catch up quite easy.

But you just can't compare Raids in the subject of g/h. Almost everything in Gw2 can be farmed. Even Fractal-Farms exist. But raids?

I don't see the relevance of this to what I stated, in that there is no viable way to infinitely create new stuff for reward-centric players to chase.  This actually supports my conclusion, in that any newly released rewards will be quickly gotten and we are back to the same problem, nothing to grind for.

12 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

People are always talking about fun. But how is someone not having fun when he clears raids and helps newly's for almost nothing because he already had his clear?

This supports my point.  Replayability is easiest to design for with gameplay and mechanics rather than endless reward chasing.  Fun can be had without solely chasing rewards.

12 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

I bet there are a lot only-pve players here in these Forum who hate on Raiders, who would be the first to complain when anet set the same reward system to the entyre game. Meaning, you can complete every meta only 1 time a week. And even then, PVE-players would have sooo~ much content. But even so, people would complain.

Strawman fallacy.  This has nothing to do with anything I stated.  It also has nothing to do with the problem of creating new rewards, ad nauseam,  as a means of creating long-lasting replayability.

12 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

I know it's nice and everything and this is probaly true for a lot, but you can just look at the game and see that most players are reward driven players.

Again, this is an inductive fallacy (hasty generalization).  You do not have the information to make such an assertion.  I also surmise that there is confirmation bias in this assertion, in that you notice the players that are reward-driven but fail to note players engaging in gameplay that isn't reward-centric.

Even so, you don't know how many players are playing the game, let alone what percentage of players partake in what type of in-game activity.  You can't even identify the intent of every player you see in-game, unless you literally ask every player why they do what they do.

My argument is predicated on the infeasibility of creating long lasting replayability solely through in-game reward creation.  Even if it is made unbelievably grindy, there is a history of players disliking massive grind.  See, e.g., Swim-Speed Infusion +30, The Facet of Shadow and Death, Skyscale collection.  The foregoing are examples of reward-centric content creation design for lon-lasting replayability.  There is no way to make reward-centric content that: (1) won't be quickly attained by players, resulting in a return to the original problem; (2) will be disliked by players for the sheer astronomical level of grind; or (3) will not consume the majority of development time to pump out continuous streams of in-game rewards.

  

[Fuchslein.8639]

1 hour ago, Rogue.8235 said:

You have no idea what percentage of players do what activity in the game.  This statement, eluding to an assertion that most players in GW2 are reward-centric, is based on a hasty generalization fallacy.

I don't see the relevance of this to what I stated, in that there is no viable way to infinitely create new stuff for reward-centric players to chase.  This actually supports my conclusion, in that any newly released rewards will be quickly gotten and we are back to the same problem, nothing to grind for.

This supports my point.  Replayability is easiest to design for with gameplay and mechanics rather than endless reward chasing.  Fun can be had without solely chasing rewards.

Strawman fallacy.  This has nothing to do with anything I stated.  It also has nothing to do with the problem of creating new rewards, ad nauseam,  as a means of creating long-lasting replayability.

Again, this is an inductive fallacy (hasty generalization).  You do not have the information to make such an assertion.  I also surmise that there is confirmation bias in this assertion, in that you notice the players that are reward-driven but fail to note players engaging in gameplay that isn't reward-centric.

Even so, you don't know how many players are playing the game, let alone what percentage of players partake in what type of in-game activity.  You can't even identify the intent of every player you see in-game, unless you literally ask every player why they do what they do.

My argument is predicated on the infeasibility of creating long lasting replayability solely through in-game reward creation.  Even if it is made unbelievably grindy, there is a history of players disliking massive grind.  See, e.g., Swim-Speed Infusion +30, The Facet of Shadow and Death, Skyscale collection.  The foregoing are examples of reward-centric content creation design for lon-lasting replayability.  There is no way to make reward-centric content that: (1) won't be quickly attained by players, resulting in a return to the original problem; (2) will be disliked by players for the sheer astronomical level of grind; or (3) will not consume the majority of development time to pump out continuous streams of in-game rewards.

  

I don't need statistics when you can see it clearly as you are playing ...

And i don't see any statistic in your'e comment either. Sorry to break that down to you, but NO ONE besides Anet has any significant staticitc, with which he could underline his Comment. We all post opinions here and my opinion is as biasd as your's is.

And yeah sure, strawman-thing ... when you want to cut off an opinion, just not answer.

And you know, not everything i wrotet was signed to your'e comment. Thank you, Good night.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Rasimir.6239]

28 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

I don't need statistics when you can see it clearly as you are playing ...

That's the problem with this whole discussion: everyone of us sees a disproportionate amount of like-minded players simply because those are the players interacting with the same kind of content we do.

 

Several people, in this thread and others, have challenged the opinion (and it is just that: an opinion) that the majority of players are reward-driven. If you base your main argument on anecdotal evidence (as in: the players you see in game, that like to play similarly to you), then I'm sorry to say that it's not much of an argument.

 

I'm obviously playing with different interests and goals than you, because what I see in game doesn't support your argument of "most players are reward-driven" at all. I do however support the opinion that this game has a lot of systems attracting the exploration-driven players and that it's one of the game's strengths, but at the same time that makes it harder to make the game reward-centric (since, as has been explained before, long-lasting rewards are bound to be grindy, which is a sure way to tick of a large part of the exploration-driven playerbase).