You can turn DE meta into a loot train now

[vanfrano.1325]

19 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

This may be true for the forum, but in the game it is quite different. Players coming together, communicate and cooperate.  Several new communities, groups and guilds were founded because of the meta. 
It depends on you if you participate in the community building or if you complain from afar. 

We're not playing the same game then. This meta, and EoD as a whole, hurt the game and its community a lot. But Anet seems happy so it's all good I guess.

[Erise.5614]

35 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

This may be true for the forum, but in the game it is quite different. Players coming together, communicate and cooperate.  Several new communities, groups and guilds were founded because of the meta. 
It depends on you if you participate in the community building or if you complain from afar. 

Am I overlooking something or are you talking about less than a handful of groups here while the overall participation took an extremely steep nosedive. 

As far as I can tell (on EU) there's Soo Lost, DBS, FG/End, HS irregularly, some larger guilds maybe once a week and maybe one or two smaller groups without active recruiting doing it. Who are all doing magnificently and are lovely people! 

But I'd wager there's more guild recruiting and community interaction happening on AB in a day than on DE in a week. 
It's awesome you found an environment where you enjoy your time there. But it really does not seem reflective of the general player base. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[yoni.7015]

12 minutes ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

I knew a post saying positive about DE will provoke the confused mob 😂

Maybe they would have more success with the meta if they weren’t so confused. 

[yoni.7015]

18 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Am I overlooking something or are you talking about less than a handful of groups here while the overall participation took an extremely steep nosedive. 

As far as I can tell (on EU) there's Soo Lost, DBS, FG/End, HS irregularly, some larger guilds maybe once a week and maybe one or two smaller groups without active recruiting doing it. Who are all doing magnificently and are lovely people! 

But I'd wager there's more guild recruiting and community interaction happening on AB in a day than on DE in a week. 
It's awesome you found an environment where you enjoy your time there. But it really does not seem reflective of the general player base. 

I can only speak for the group I am doing the meta with. We usually get 1 to 2 new guild members every night after the run. That’s around ten members a week plus new regulars who don’t join the guild. 
What are your numbers for one day in AB? 

Edited June 8, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Friday.7864]

14 hours ago, Lottie.5370 said:

Be a little more selective with which groups you're willing to join, and you'll have a much better time in the meta.

Pretty much sums up everything wrong with the meta.
Open world, which is supposed to bring everyone together - does the opposite.

Suddenly some groups of players are not good enough to play with.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Friday.7864
Edited for clarity

[Vilin.8056]

8 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I can only speak for the group I am doing the meta with. We usually get 1 to 2 new guild members every night after the run. That’s around ten members a week. 
What are your numbers for one day in AB? 

It doesn't matter, this is like comparing apple with oranges.

9 out of 10 community interactions in AB don't go beyond simple taxi onto a straight loot train, if that's sufficient to qualify as a community interaction, then we'll make more of that by making portals for daily JPs.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

It doesn't matter, this is like comparing apple with oranges.

9 out of 10 community interactions in AB don't go beyond simple taxi onto a straight loot train, if that's sufficient to qualify as a community interaction, then we'll make more of that by making portals for daily JPs.

I will have you know that [Pink] is a great community.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Erise.5614]

42 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I can only speak for the group I am doing the meta with. We usually get 1 to 2 new guild members every night after the run. That’s around ten members a week plus new regulars who don’t join the guild. 
What are your numbers for one day in AB? 

5 - 10 is normal for a day. Obviously I don't advertise daily. There's guild limits after all and the new people need to settle or drop off first. If there's too many at once we can't onboard properly.

Also, psst. But there's a secret tea party every night. As well as daily fractal and strike runs outside of the guild. One group made it to T3 already! 

44 minutes ago, Vilin.8056 said:

It doesn't matter, this is like comparing apple with oranges.

9 out of 10 community interactions in AB don't go beyond simple taxi onto a straight loot train, if that's sufficient to qualify as a community interaction, then we'll make more of that by making portals for daily JPs.

Do you seriously believe it's different on DE? Most players don't use chat either or have any more complex interactions.

The difference is, there's easily 4 times as many players doing AB. So the raw volume of interaction is drastically higher. Plus more memes that keep small talk going more easily. Leading to more chat in general (and no, this isn't just a feeling. If you insist I'm happy to count the specifics for the last couple of runs with FG & DBS in full. It's noticeably less on DE) 

[Sobx.1758]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nothing.

Exactly.

Quote

Unfortunately, that event doesn;t exactly help with community building. Quite the opposite - it's effect on the rifts already existing within the community is to drive a wedge into them and make them even wider.

That's just false. It doesn't make everyone to suddenly start to cooperate, but plenty of people did actually start cooperating more than they were before the event. You can easly notice that in the game as well as in some of the posts on this forum that specifically say what some of those people started doing to have success with the meta. Of course you'll conveniently forget about those despite being in the exact threads where it was being talked about.

10 hours ago, yoni.7015 said:

This may be true for the forum, but in the game it is quite different. Players coming together, communicate and cooperate.  Several new communities, groups and guilds were founded because of the meta. 
It depends on you if you participate in the community building or if you complain from afar. 

Yup, exactly.

9 hours ago, vanfrano.1325 said:

We're not playing the same game then. This meta, and EoD as a whole, hurt the game and its community a lot. But Anet seems happy so it's all good I guess.

The only people it ("it" being one meta, not the whole expansion as you're trying to claim for some reason) could possibly "hurt" are the ones that don't want to co-operate (or get help learning the game) no matter what anyways. Meanwhile the others have more opportunities and groups that are open to provide any help needed to improve and complete harder content.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I will have you know that [Pink] is a great community.

Yeah, they're a great community within their guild, but the influence on the gameplay, game understanding and so on of the players they're helping is next to none (or, more accurately, actually none). They're just comming to get a daily, they get ported and leave. It doesn't mean what that guild is doing isn't nice, but "community building" by providing ports to daily jps (which -for the ported players- in itself is mostly the goal of just getting the reward ASAP and moving on) as a comparison to actually spending time with players and helping them understand the game better is at least bordering on being a strawman.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[SdoRy.6839]

On 6/6/2022 at 4:45 AM, Chichimec.9364 said:

back when it was RNGeesus, not skill, organization, or anything else that determined who won and who lost. Highly organized raid groups were still mostly failing.

This is simply false. After the first few runs and figuring out what to even do, well organised groups NEVER failed, REGARDLESS of the rng. Yes, terrible RNG made is significantly harder, but never impossible. Hardstuck had like 30 consecutive wins before the nerfs.

Edited June 9, 2022 by SdoRy.6839

[SdoRy.6839]

On 6/6/2022 at 4:57 PM, Caliboom.3218 said:

Do toxic elitists really think that all OW players do is 111?

I wish they would. The harsh reality is that at least 50% of the player base would deal more damage if they only auto attacked. Skill cancelling, using useless skills at the wrong time, not finishing auto attack chains.... Most people are worse than "1111". So no, they don't think that literally, but figuratively in the sense they don't contribute a whole lot to the fight. Have you ever looked at a ArcDPS log in an open world meta event? There's 2-5 people doing 80-90% of the damage, theres 30 people doing <3k dps. That's okay, but that's the reality.

Edited June 9, 2022 by SdoRy.6839

[Erise.5614]

3 hours ago, SdoRy.6839 said:

I wish they would. The harsh reality is that at least 50% of the player base would deal more damage if they only auto attacked. Skill cancelling, using useless skills at the wrong time, not finishing auto attack chains.... Most people are worse than "1111". So no, they don't think that literally, but figuratively in the sense they don't contribute a whole lot to the fight. Have you ever looked at a ArcDPS log in an open world meta event? There's 2-5 people doing 80-90% of the damage, theres 30 people doing <3k dps. That's okay, but that's the reality.

Is it really timing that causes the damage to be at that level? I don't think it's possible to cause the huge difference even if you tried.

While a lot do seem to run non ideal trait combos and run gear that may look fine if you come from RPGs but is, in that combination, thoroughly useless in GW2. 

As far as I can tell the "1111" statement is meant as "it's worse than when I auto attack". Half statement of superiority and half mocking the lack of knowledge and poor performance. 

[Raizel.8175]

On 6/8/2022 at 8:49 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nothing. Unfortunately, that event doesn;t exactly help with community building. Quite the opposite - it's effect on the rifts already existing within the community is to drive a wedge into them and make them even wider.

Wrong. It did help community-building for those who are actually interested in community-building. It's not the games fault - a MMORPG, I might add - that people refuse to do basic socializing. You may even find people who're posting here if you bother with socializing. Actually found out that Yoni is in the same DE guild I am. I know that it's easy to blame the game and in a majority of cases, game design either is at fault or is a main contributor, but in GW2s case, players often act a lot dumber than they should've been allowed to.

[Raizel.8175]

56 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

While a lot do seem to run non ideal trait combos and run gear that may look fine if you come from RPGs but is, in that combination, thoroughly useless in GW2. 

If you've ever played any RPG, GW2s build and equipment system won't be rocket since or witchcraft for you. Stats are pretty much self-explanatory and if you bother to read traits, you'll realize that there are pretty obvious choices for whatever kind of playstyle you wish to play. The main issue with GW2 is simply that a lot of people simply don't want to use their brain - in spite of the game harassing you both with the training and the build tab in the hero panel on several occasions.

[Deepcuts.9740]

~ 6 wins and ~ 8 fails

Commanded 3 runs.

Two wins - nobody said a word.

One fail - ~5 angry people /w that I suck at commanding.

Too much effort for nothing really.

I already forgot about that map.

[Bristingr.5034]

On 6/6/2022 at 7:57 AM, Caliboom.3218 said:

Do toxic elitists really think that all OW players do is 111?

I'm confused, what's Overwatch have to do with this?

[Astralporing.1957]

49 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

If you've ever played any RPG, GW2s build and equipment system won't be rocket since or witchcraft for you. Stats are pretty much self-explanatory and if you bother to read traits, you'll realize that there are pretty obvious choices for whatever kind of playstyle you wish to play.

But it's not so obvious which approach to playstyle you should play and which is useless. Remember, in practically any RPG, going glass cannon is generally a suicidal choice, and next to noone does that. Even most action cRPGs will insist on at least some survival traits. Only MMORPGs are different, although they do it through existence of holy trinity, which GW2 does not have. And games like gw2, where you can deal away with 95% of the danger just by proper movement and positioning (and with the remaining 5% with heal skill, and maybe one utility, or weapon skill) are extremely rare (and in non-computer RPGs they are practically non-existent).

Edited June 9, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Sobx.1758]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

But it's not so obvious which approach to playstyle you should play

If that hp bar is moving down too slow to be within the time limits, it's the matter of basic logic to understand what approach to playstyle you should shift toward.

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Remember, in practically any RPG, going glass cannon is generally a suicidal choice, and next to noone does that. Even most action cRPGs will insist on at least some survival traits. Games like gw2, where you can deal away with 95% of the danger just by proper movement and positioning (and with the remaining 5% with heal skill, and maybe one utility, or weapon skill) are extremely rare (and in non-computer RPGs they are practically non-existent).

That's false. It will make it harder to play, since you're glass cannon, but what you've just said just isn't true at all as some general rpg rule. Even moreso when we're talking about rpgs allowing more active ways of defending/dmg avoidance, which is the case in gw2.

[Erise.5614]

1 hour ago, Raizel.8175 said:

If you've ever played any RPG, GW2s build and equipment system won't be rocket since or witchcraft for you. Stats are pretty much self-explanatory and if you bother to read traits, you'll realize that there are pretty obvious choices for whatever kind of playstyle you wish to play. The main issue with GW2 is simply that a lot of people simply don't want to use their brain - in spite of the game harassing you both with the training and the build tab in the hero panel on several occasions.

It really is though. If you look at action RPGs like Assassin's Creed, The Witcher 3 or others. They do have choice but everything makes you stronger. It merely informs your playstyle. If you overlook a synergy you take a bit longer during combat. If you have a hard time you can take a bit longer still and go super defensive. 

GW2 does the exact opposite. Instead of allowing for fallbacks and for players to primarily focus on their personal preference in gameplay it necessitates a very coherent setup to be any effective at all. Toughness is, besides raid tanks, an objectively wrong choice. Vitality is basically only useful in WvW. Defensive stats are mostly a trap in GW2. 

Despite individual choices still seeming reasonably sensible at first sight you will end up at down to ~10% the efficiency of high performance players. 

A good example for the mindset I was referring to though! 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

If you overlook a synergy you take a bit longer during combat. If you have a hard time you can take a bit longer still and go super defensive. 

Exactly, so if you're taking too long while not failing mechanics, it's rather clear what you're missing. There's pretty much no option where someone thinks "hmm it took me too long to kill this boss, maybe I should take less dmg and more defense instead?"

Not only that, but generally any trait you pick in gw2 also "makes you stronger", it just does it in different ways. Be it dps, utility or pure defense, you are getting stronger. When playing games like Witcher 3 the choices you make are also having different performance and synergies. Even(?) there some builds will be coherent, while the others will be the equivalent of just randomly picking stuff.

15 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Toughness is, besides raid tanks, an objectively wrong choice. Vitality is basically only useful in WvW. Defensive stats are mostly a trap in GW2. 

You can play builds with toughness or vitality (duh, even both) and still have "enough dmg". It won't be obtimal, but it doesn't need to be. It just needs to be coherent. But it remains pretty obvious that if you feel you need more dps, you shouldn't spam defensive stats instead. It can hardly be called a trap, since it does what it says it does.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Exactly, so if you're taking too long while not failing mechanics, it's rather clear what you're missing. There's pretty much no option where someone thinks "hmm it took me too long to kill this boss, maybe I should take less dmg and more defense instead?"

This is true for solo instances. Mostly true for small group instances. And a strawman in the context of meta events. Because obviously no one is thinking "hmm. I survived easily but it didn't die. Maybe less DPS will do the trick!" But a normal player will also not understand how much damage they deal, how much is normal, how much is necessary and that the event failed because they personally are lacking damage. GW2 gives no feedback about these kinds of things. Heck, they may even deal far more than the necessary damage themselves and still fail. 

You already have to understand exactly how everything works and what exactly happened during the encounter to notice this. 

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

When playing games like Witcher 3 the choices you make are also having different performance and synergies. Even(?) there some builds will be coherent, while the others will be the equivalent of just randomly picking stuff.

The difference is, a good build has maybe 200%-300% the performance of a bad one and games are generally balanced around ~150% base line. And, again. Can be beaten a bit slower but more consistently with higher defensive stats. 

GW2 is built to have the right choices perform at 1000% the damage output and encounters like Soo Won are balanced at ~250%-300% base line. And in most situations defensive choices are just an objectively terrible choice. Both defensive traits and defensive stats. 

It's not just good to optimize DPS output. It's mandatory.

Edit: For an even like Soo Won it's certainly not like you need to optimize to the absolute maximum. But an inexperienced player giving an honest attempt at coming up with a build can realistically end up with a setup where they are literally incapable to perform to the necessary degree. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Cuks.8241]

49 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But an inexperienced player giving an honest attempt at coming up with a build can realistically end up with a setup where they are literally incapable to perform to the necessary degree. 

True. But what is wrong with some content that is not aimed at an inexperienced players?

I like we have a few big events that are aimed towards more experienced and organised players. And no 10 man instances are not the same as 60 man big events. Maybe having more such events would revitalise guilds in this game.

[Gorem.8104]

8 hours ago, SdoRy.6839 said:

This is simply false. After the first few runs and figuring out what to even do, well organised groups NEVER failed, REGARDLESS of the rng. Yes, terrible RNG made is significantly harder, but never impossible. Hardstuck had like 30 consecutive wins before the nerfs.

So, you are saying because the 1% of the 1% had so much dps that they were able to beat it even when most raid groups were still failing before the nerfs.. the fights fine? 

Open world is supposed to be for everyone :). Funs been had, I agree with this thread, just make it a loot train now and we can all move on. 

[Sobx.1758]

57 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

This is true for solo instances. Mostly true for small group instances. And a strawman in the context of meta events. Because obviously no one is thinking "hmm. I survived easily but it didn't die. Maybe less DPS will do the trick!" But a normal player will also not understand how much damage they deal, how much is normal, how much is necessary and that the event failed because they personally are lacking damage. GW2 gives no feedback about these kinds of things. Heck, they may even deal far more than the necessary damage themselves and still fail. 

You already have to understand exactly how everything works and what exactly happened during the encounter to notice this. 

So if that's the opinion you hold then... you probably should be in favor of some official dps meter that would allow for putting your performance in comparison to other people attending the same content/event? Or maybe -with the recent change to add the entrance to the special forces training area directly from LA, as well as not needing to make a 1player squad- anet should include the mention of the existance of dps golem during the process of leveling up (or upon entering LA for the first time)?

57 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The difference is, a good build has maybe 200%-300% the performance of a bad one and games are generally balanced around ~150% base line. And, again. Can be beaten a bit slower but more consistently with higher defensive stats. 

Weren't you two talking about the understanding the build/attribute systems and you've came out with a strawman based on another -single player- rpgs claiming "each choice makes you stronger, maybe it will make you kill stuff slower"? That's... also what is true in this game. That doesn't change anytihng about a build system being understandable or not. Anything you pick in gw2 technically (so just like in those other games) makes you stronger, but those builds will specialize in different things and have different capabilities and performance. If someone intentionally picks plenty of defensive options, it's hard to try and claim that they somehow don't know they can't have more damage. All it takes is reading and choosing accordingly. If you didn't have enough time to kill something -group content or not- and you know you've made plenty of defensive choices instead of the dps-based ones... then you absolutely know you can do better in terms of dmg contribution, don't you?

(also did someone actually checked and shared the numbers or you've just made some up to make a point? Making them up to make a point is still understandable, but it would help to clear out how accurate what you're talking about really is)

57 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's not just good to optimize DPS output. It's mandatory.

...what? No, it really isn't, actually fairly far from it.