Living World Paywall

[Tchuvan.4251]

I am sure this has been voice numerous times, but I just want to reiterate as a new player: the paywall to unlock the Living World content is complete @#$%@#$%.  I just dropped $75 thinking I unlocked all content in this game, got to Lv 80, played Living World Season 1, and then found out that Season 2 was behind a paywall.  Learned the rest were too.

 

Look, this company needs to be up front with the costs to play it.  I'm not talking about side stuff that isn't necessary like trinkets or quality of life stuff.   I'm talking about CORE STORYLINE content. 

 

I'm gonna be honest, had I known this would have cost more on top of the $75 already, I wouldn't have bought the game.  Even the $75 was pushing my budget.  Now I am stuck either forking over even more money or watching a YouTube video?  Who watches YouTube videos instead of playing the story?

 

Just feeling a bit deceived.  No other game handles expansions/new content like this, and certainly not for THE CORE STORYLINE!!

Edited June 6, 2022 by Tchuvan.4251
Paragraph spacing off.

[Blude.6812]

Yes you are right. It has been voiced numerous time, in fact way too many times.

[Randulf.7614]

Seasons are free during their initial release then paid dlc and often give more content than the expacs (season 3 and 4 anyway). There’s far more than just story, including at least 15 maps.

Is it communicated effectively? No.
Has this been raised many times? Yes, many. There’s prob a few on the front page

[Tchuvan.4251]

20 minutes ago, Blude.6812 said:

Yes you are right. It has been voiced numerous time, in fact way too many times.

So glad they are listening to their community then. 🙄

[Ashen.2907]

I agree that they do a poor job of setting expectations. I dont necessarily disagree with the idea of charging for LW seasons, but I do think that it might be better to bundle them with expansions in order to increase perceived value for the expansions. Either way, ANet needs to do a better job of ensuring that potential buyers understand that buying the expansions does not cover the core story.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Curious...what did you purchase for $75?  Even the Collection (3 Expansions) is only $50.  If you purchased any Ultimate Editions, you have Gems to spend on Living World Season(s). 

[Tukaram.8256]

This is a very common, and understandable, complaint.  It makes no sense, and is certainly not spelled out clearly in any purchase.  

I bought the game, and have no subscription fee.  I logged in at the right time and got the living world for free.  You bought the game and have no subscription fee... but... you have to pay for the content we got for free?  If we paid a subscription fee, I would understand, but as it is - it is weird.

(The living world is pretty much wasted on me because I rarely play the story)

[Linken.6345]

22 minutes ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

This is a very common, and understandable, complaint.  It makes no sense, and is certainly not spelled out clearly in any purchase.  

I bought the game, and have no subscription fee.  I logged in at the right time and got the living world for free.  You bought the game and have no subscription fee... but... you have to pay for the content we got for free?  If we paid a subscription fee, I would understand, but as it is - it is weird.

(The living world is pretty much wasted on me because I rarely play the story)

Ok so new players should pay 60 for core, 60 for hot, 30 for pof and 30 for eod then aswell?

[Freya.9075]

I do agree they could put the cost of living world more obvious on their sale page. However. You can get living world for ingame gold. There are events where they release them for free weekly too, but it probably will be long before a new event since we just had that before eod release. 
 

anet needs to earn money somehow to work on new content, and it’s a very cheap game to play. You get thousands of gameplay with no monthly subscription fee. And you can get almost everything for game currency. Just play the game and enjoy it, and buy episodes when you get enough gold. Mmos are not made to be rushed through like other games. 

[Tukaram.8256]

27 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Ok so new players should pay 60 for core, 60 for hot, 30 for pof and 30 for eod then aswell?

No. Old games should not cost full price. I paid close to $70 for each, as I bought the highest package, to support the game.  There is no reason to charge that much anymore.  I do not feel that just because I paid that much, others should too.  I bought it new and got an additional 9 years of playtime, there should be discounted prices, particularly bundle prices, for older content. And there was never a reason to charge for the living world since the rest of us got it for free. 

Mainly, if they are going to charge for living world content - it needs to be clearly explained on the product page. 

[Veprovina.4876]

7 hours ago, Tchuvan.4251 said:

I'm gonna be honest, had I known this would have cost more on top of the $75 already, I wouldn't have bought the game. 

And this is why they do it!

 

Because people wouldn't buy the game if they know it costs double what they expect. Some would, but not as much as if they knew the full price.

But once you fork out the initial cost, you're already in you probably already played a lot of tim e until you in-game find out there's more content. 

But then you're already invested, so then "you might as well buy the rest", and that's how they get the rest of your money.

The excuse is of course, "it's free when it comes out", except this excuse no longer flies, there's literally now 4, soon 5 seasons of extra paying content. And it was free years ago with the extra 1 week per episode in the latest promotion.

None of which most people would have been there for, especially when it launches on steam.

There also the convert gold to gems excuse, but that's also a weak excuse.

I ike the game obviously, but governments should become involved to ban manipulative practices like this. This already birders on illegal because its not showing you the full price of the full game, but circumvent some laws by being "additional content" or such, but it's a purpusefully designed practice to trick you into buying out of "well now that I'm glad way in" kinda deal.

It's the same why you can't buy 1200 gems to buy a mount skin, you need to buy 1600. 

 

And that's a horrible feeling to leave your consumers with. Feeling of being tricked.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Bakeneko.5826]

7 hours ago, Tchuvan.4251 said:

So glad they are listening to their community then. 🙄

You got your core content - Story of the expansion. When you buy any edition of GW2, you see exactly what you get - story bit, level-80 boost, some goodies for extra cost. Not one edition states it contains living world seasons.

Also, PoF + HoT costs 30 eur, EoD another 30 eur. For 75 EUR you got additional character slot, level 80 boost and shared inventory slot - that adds up to more than 15 eur. So no, Anet is in the right here - you buy B2P game, got content for 60 eur and goodies worth more than those extra 15 eur. LWS is not something you are entitled to, just like players who played during launched are not entitled to it - but anet is nice enough to provide more content (which do not generate more money for all the work they put into LWS) for free, if you log into the game during 3-4 months the episode is "live". If you don't want to spend real money, covert gold to gems and buy it via in-game gold. Otherwise, you have no ground to stand on, as you are shown what you get before you even buy the game.

[crepuscular.9047]

Quote

With the Standard Edition, you get the entire collection of Guild Wars 2 expansions, along with a Shared Inventory Slot and a Max Level Boost to help your character get started in Cantha.

Living World Stories are DLCs, and not part of any expansion, the packages all says "Expansions", and there is no obligations for them to advertise for DLCs / non-core/expansion contents.

Can you imagine Blizzard advertise "$100,000 - Max your character" for Diablo Immoral, which is the core game.

Edited June 7, 2022 by crepuscular.9047

[Gehenna.3625]

17 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

You got your core content - Story of the expansion. When you buy any edition of GW2, you see exactly what you get - story bit, level-80 boost, some goodies for extra cost. Not one edition states it contains living world seasons.

You don't see exactly what you get because it's not normal for an MMO to charge for parts of the main story line separately. Also on the page where you get the collection of all 3 expansions (including core), it says that you get all content and can explore without limitations.

That's a lie. That's another reason why people expect to have all content unlocked. Go to this page and go to the section "all content in one collection" (guess what, it's not all content).

I don't mind them asking money for extra content, since there's no subscription involved, but this is not the way to do it. 

[Fuchslein.8639]

You can try and ask the support for a refund, i don'tknow how long you played, but its worth a try. But i'm total with you, this is a really bad sheme anet is doing. I hope this thema will pop up and Pop up again. Anet need to be reminded of it's lie's.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Bakeneko.5826]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

You don't see exactly what you get because it's not normal for an MMO to charge for parts of the main story line separately. Also on the page where you get the collection of all 3 expansions (including core), it says that you get all content and can explore without limitations.

That's a lie. That's another reason why people expect to have all content unlocked. Go to this page and go to the section "all content in one collection" (guess what, it's not all content).

I don't mind them asking money for extra content, since there's no subscription involved, but this is not the way to do it. 

Yes, you see exactly what you get. For standard edition you get:

Quote

With the Standard Edition, you get the entire collection of Guild Wars 2 expansions, along with a Shared Inventory Slot and a Max Level Boost to help your character get started in Cantha.

It literally states that you get core with all expacs. And it even says what story bits you get:

Quote

Begin your journey to discover the secrets of the Elder Dragons in the Heart of Maguuma, where a Pact fleet has gone down in flames on their way to confront the Jungle Dragon Mordremoth. Travel to the Crystal Desert to stop the god of fire and war from destroying Tyria in his arrogance. Finally, discover how a new cycle begins in the land of Cantha.

It doesn't mention or even allude to Kralkatorik, Jokko, Glint's egg, Mursat or White mantle. If we go to "All content in one" you get told what you get as well:

Quote

Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns - Epic adventures await you in the Heart of Maguuma Jungle. Confront the jungle Dragon Mordremoth and its growing hordes of minions, discover ancient civilizations, and test your mettle in boss battles.

Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire - Balthazar, God of War and Fire, has returned. Lead your allies in the hunt for the arrogant divinity, whose scorched earth campaign against the Elder Dragons threatens Tyria's very existence.

Guild Wars 2: End of Dragons: The dragon cycle that has sustained and blighted Tyria for ages is collapsing. Mortal hearts and choices will define this moment in history—and echo in the future forever.

They literally say WHAT you get and never mention that you get any LWS content. If people cannot read what is written 2 times, on the same page, it's on people for inability to read of comprehend. I get why some people might be pissed, that some bits are locked behind another paywall, but that's how B2P model works. You don't need to pay subscription, but Anet still needs to make money, while giving feebies to long term players, to keep them happy.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

You don't see exactly what you get because it's not normal for an MMO to charge for parts of the main story line separately. Also on the page where you get the collection of all 3 expansions (including core), it says that you get all content and can explore without limitations.

That's a lie. That's another reason why people expect to have all content unlocked. Go to this page and go to the section "all content in one collection" (guess what, it's not all content).

I don't mind them asking money for extra content, since there's no subscription involved, but this is not the way to do it. 

"All content" clearly reference to the 3 expansions that follow the subject line in that section. Otherwise you could argue the same for any BL content not included. That said them not offering a full LS pack included in collection packages is one of those Anet mysteries.

 

[Bakeneko.5826]

11 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

"All content" clearly reference to the 3 expansions that follow the subject line in that section. Otherwise you could argue the same for any BL content not included. That said them not offering a full LS pack included in collection packages is one of those Anet mysteries.

 

99 Eur, you get all expacs, extra goodies and 4k gems - enough to get all LWS

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

"All content" clearly reference to the 3 expansions that follow the subject line in that section. Otherwise you could argue the same for any BL content not included. That said them not offering a full LS pack included in collection packages is one of those Anet mysteries.

I don't agree that it's that clear. No other AAA* MMO does it like this and so the expectation is that you get all the content by buying all the expansions.

It may be clear to people who've played GW2 for a while, but I don't believe that it's clear to any new customer.

Edit: with all content I mean all the story and zones. People generally understand that skins and services might come via a cash shop.

1 hour ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Yes, you see exactly what you get. For standard edition you get:

It literally states that you get core with all expacs. And it even says what story bits you get:

It doesn't mention or even allude to Kralkatorik, Jokko, Glint's egg, Mursat or White mantle. If we go to "All content in one" you get told what you get as well:

They literally say WHAT you get and never mention that you get any LWS content. If people cannot read what is written 2 times, on the same page, it's on people for inability to read of comprehend. I get why some people might be pissed, that some bits are locked behind another paywall, but that's how B2P model works. You don't need to pay subscription, but Anet still needs to make money, while giving feebies to long term players, to keep them happy.

That's all good and well for existing customers, but what does this all mean to a new customer? They don't know there's anything else in the game and that's why it's misleading to new customers.

*Edit: added AAA, because that's what I meant to say and without that it's a blanket statement that I can't possibly maintain.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[The Boz.2038]

16 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

No other MMO does it like this

You must not play a lot of MMOs then, I guess.

[Gehenna.3625]

7 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You must not play a lot of MMOs then, I guess.

Sorry,  I meant to say AAA MMOs. I'm sure there are MMOs out there that have this but I can't see them being very popular. Though, maybe there are some in Asia. 

Perhaps you could help me with some titles? I'm happy to learn.

[The Boz.2038]

I can already smell the goal-post-mobility team warming up in the way of "but that's not AAA" or "but that's not MMO" or "but that's not comparable", but eh, whatever.
Destiny 2 surely counts, just as the first thing popped to mind. Expansions, DLCs, micro-stories. And then there's content deletion, lol.

[Gehenna.3625]

45 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I can already smell the goal-post-mobility team warming up in the way of "but that's not AAA" or "but that's not MMO" or "but that's not comparable", but eh, whatever.
Destiny 2 surely counts, just as the first thing popped to mind. Expansions, DLCs, micro-stories. And then there's content deletion, lol.

No, I did mean what I said. There are hundreds or even thousands of MMOs out there and I know this. I had no business making such a blanket statement. I get why you think that I'm moving the goal post, but all I can say is that I made an error and am trying to be clear about what I intend.

What I want to say is that even though there are MMOs with DPS meters out there, I suspect that they are small, competitive MMOs with lesser graphics and higher toxicity than more popular MMOs. I could imagine some Asian games of note to have this but I don't know.

I've played around 20 MMOs and I don't remember any of them having DPS meters. Games like SWTOR, Aion Online, ESO, Wildstar, Perfect World, Secret World etc.

GW2 is a AAA MMO, and as such they would have to appeal to a wider crowd to make it worth the investment. It's also high on graphics and this means that there is a cost in performance for everything they add to the game in terms of the UI/GUI. I'm also aware of games like WoW, FF XIV, Elden Rings and New Worlds. From what I can tell these games don't have DPS meters installed within the game.

A few reasons why not, that I can think of, is that they don't want to deter casual players, they don't want to put anything in the GUI that isn't necessary, and these games have good DPS meters already from outside the game.

So why would they want to reinvent the wheel?

I hope that clarifies things a bit. Again, I apologize for making such a blanket statement.

[Danikat.8537]

Personally I think the best fix - for both Anet and players - would be to offer a 'complete' version of the game which includes all the Living World seasons released so far as well as all the expansions (and the base game obviously). Even if someone chooses not to buy it that should at least make them aware there will be more to buy if they want it, and people who want to get the entire game in 1 purchase would have the option.

(I'd be hesitant to call it a complete version though, because that implies there's no more updates coming. But maybe something like 'the story so far' or 'ultimate collection'.)
 

2 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I don't agree that it's that clear. No other MMO does it like this and so the expectation is that you get all the content by buying all the expansions.

It may be clear to people who've played GW2 for a while, but I don't believe that it's clear to any new customer.

Edit: with all content I mean all the story and zones. People generally understand that skins and services might come via a cash shop.

That's all good and well for existing customers, but what does this all mean to a new customer? They don't know there's anything else in the game and that's why it's misleading to new customers.

Elder Scrolls Online has a similar business model. They split additional content between 'chapters' (expansion packs) and DLC. Chapters have to be bought separately, but DLC can be bought in-game using the cash shop or is included with a subscription.

If you look at the store on their site you'll see various versions of the game for sale, including one called Collection: High Isle which lists all the other chapters as being included. However there is no version of the game available which includes all the DLC. Just like GW2 there's no way to get everything in a single purchase.

And yet they never seem to have the problem GW2 does with people thinking that buying the Collection will get them everything. I think there's 2 reasons for that:

1) They call it DLC which is a term familiar to most gamers that immediately implies 'additional paid content, bought separately'.
2) They're constantly advertising it. You can't spend 2 minutes on the game's website without being told you can buy DLC or subscribe to get access to it, which makes it pretty clear this is an additional purchase.

By contrast GW2 calls it's DLC 'the living world' which is a term unique to this game and so not nearly as self-explanatory and while the website does mention the living world it never mentions buying it so it's very easy for a new player (or potential new player) to miss that this is a paid extra. Yes it's clear for existing players who know what's included in each release to spot the ones which are not mentioned in descriptions of what you get with each version of the game, but unless you're already playing it's very hard to know what to look for in order to spot that.

Edit: I've just been reminded that ESO does get the opposite happening: subscribers who are confused that they have to pay for new expansions and it's not included in their subscription like the DLC is.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Danikat.8537

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I've played around 20 MMOs and I don't remember any of them having DPS meters.

This isn't the DPS meters thread.