Dailies

[alphafert.6730]

There is a lot of discussion about new player experience with steam coming. Something I've noticed is when the daily is for events on lower level maps higher level players tend to try a bit too hard. Like on escorts using a raptor to group then kill an entire mob not giving others a chance to tag or an event with waves killing all as soon as vulnerable. I understand it's hard to resist because when out in open world solo or on bigger events this is habit but not at all necessary here. I doubt some of it is accidental because after it's discussed in map chat it continues & if quickness is the goal it would be faster to tag then move on. 

 

I imagine scaling could be adjusted but players could also back off a bit. 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

This is not likely to be solved by player actions.  Players who behave as you note are likely doing so with the motivation of making sure they get credit for the event and getting it over with as soon as possible.  What makes dailies a thing for a lot of people is short time span coupled with a 2 gold reward.  If players were to "back off a bit," they'd risk not getting credit, which prolongs getting daily completion.  Since doing low-level events as a high-level player is not particularly engaging, that's not going to be viewed as a good thing.

 

ANet could solve this issue by reverting to the "events in regions" version of daily events.  However, despite the issue being raised from time to time, nary a change has been forthcoming.  Maybe they fear the possible "empty maps" if they don't cluster the population on one map?  I don't know.  I do know that if I wait around for ANet to make the game better, more often than not I've ended up disappointed.

[Moody Soul.5617]

I think best is  to make events scale. No point in complaining about players killing mobs  as  the event intended, if there's not enough to go around than add more mobs, instead of having players complain about other players with the comment that's essentially saying "How dare you kill the mob that 2 auto attacks of your reaper shroud kills".

[alphafert.6730]

40 minutes ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

This is not likely to be solved by player actions.  Players who behave as you note are likely doing so with the motivation of making sure they get credit for the event and getting it over with as soon as possible.  What makes dailies a thing for a lot of people is short time span coupled with a 2 gold reward.  If players were to "back off a bit," they'd risk not getting credit, which prolongs getting daily completion.  Since doing low-level events as a high-level player is not particularly engaging, that's not going to be viewed as a good thing.

 

ANet could solve this issue by reverting to the "events in regions" version of daily events.  However, despite the issue being raised from time to time, nary a change has been forthcoming.  Maybe they fear the possible "empty maps" if they don't cluster the population on one map?  I don't know.  I do know that if I wait around for ANet to make the game better, more often than not I've ended up disappointed.

I understand wanting to get credit but to kill whole mobs quick repeatedly isn't necessary. I'm talking things like using the raptor or cc to group up a mob & firing off a few attacks to kill all of them quick. I usually tag a few then move on once I get xp & never not got credit. I often have my 1st 2-3 events complete while I'm on my 3rd or 4th. I have hung back where the event is & not been able to tag spawns though. For me it's not too big of a deal because with mounts it's a lot easier for me to get to the next event. 

 

I do agree that it's more likely to be improved through scaling rather than players. 

[Dante.1508]

4 hours ago, alphafert.6730 said:

There is a lot of discussion about new player experience with steam coming. Something I've noticed is when the daily is for events on lower level maps higher level players tend to try a bit too hard. Like on escorts using a raptor to group then kill an entire mob not giving others a chance to tag or an event with waves killing all as soon as vulnerable. I understand it's hard to resist because when out in open world solo or on bigger events this is habit but not at all necessary here. I doubt some of it is accidental because after it's discussed in map chat it continues & if quickness is the goal it would be faster to tag then move on. 

 

I imagine scaling could be adjusted but players could also back off a bit. 

Again this is why Tyria needs complete over hauls..

[Labjax.2465]

19 minutes ago, Dante.1508 said:

Again this is why Tyria needs complete over hauls..

Hot take: core tyria difficulty should be revamped, where starter zone is the same, but after that it slowly ramps up in difficulty until it's a little less difficult than HoT at the end and along with this, the rewards (event scaling, etc.) can be given a bump to encourage veteran players to revisit the zones on a regular basis. Also with tactical tutorials along the way, like what's in EoD, to teach players steadily so they aren't caught off guard. Each zone with a new tactic to learn. And they can source input from the most skilled players for creating some of these tactics, so it's easier and covers ground the devs themselves might miss. (edit: oh and completing the tactic successfully can have an achievement and reward path too, similar to adventures or races, so there's gamey incentive, not just a desire to be skilled which wouldn't be enough for some people)

Edited June 15, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Dante.1508]

7 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Hot take: core tyria difficulty should be revamped, where starter zone is the same, but after that it slowly ramps up in difficulty until it's a little less difficult than HoT at the end and along with this, the rewards (event scaling, etc.) can be given a bump to encourage veteran players to revisit the zones on a regular basis. Also with tactical tutorials along the way, like what's in EoD, to teach players steadily so they aren't caught off guard. Each zone with a new tactic to learn. And they can source input from the most skilled players for creating some of these tactics, so it's easier and covers ground the devs themselves might miss. (edit: oh and completing the tactic successfully can have an achievement and reward path too, similar to adventures or races, so there's gamey incentive, not just a desire to be skilled which wouldn't be enough for some people)

Agreed.

[Gibson.4036]

The problem is that it all snowballs. I've used the raptor swipe before because I am on a melee character and players with extreme range were almost instantly downing mobs as soon as they became vulnerable. Leaping then swiping allowed me to actually get some hits in for credit.

Though I'm surprised that players even do the zone event daily. Almost any other daily is faster and easier. If only 2 PvE dailies are quick and easy, I'll usually pick up the third in WvW or PvP rather than try to do the zone events.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Lottie.5370]

10 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Hot take: core tyria difficulty should be revamped, where starter zone is the same, but after that it slowly ramps up in difficulty until it's a little less difficult than HoT at the end and along with this, the rewards (event scaling, etc.) can be given a bump to encourage veteran players to revisit the zones on a regular basis. Also with tactical tutorials along the way, like what's in EoD, to teach players steadily so they aren't caught off guard. Each zone with a new tactic to learn. And they can source input from the most skilled players for creating some of these tactics, so it's easier and covers ground the devs themselves might miss. (edit: oh and completing the tactic successfully can have an achievement and reward path too, similar to adventures or races, so there's gamey incentive, not just a desire to be skilled which wouldn't be enough for some people)

 

I don't think making Core Tyria harder is the answer, and think it would drive more players away from the game. Especially if it's nearly HoT levels - not everyone gets new/better gear as they are levelling, in fact I've seen people at level 80 with masterwork/rare gear. I think it would make playing way harder than it needs to be, it's not worth it just to make better players, when it's supposed to be a fairly casual game that you can take at your own pace.

 

To make it easier to tag events: have mobs stay invulnerable for an extra second to give people time to target them, spawn more mobs (scale them up better), reduce the mount damage in lower level maps, etc.

 

You can react with the crying emote all you like, it's not me that has difficulty with the content, but maybe just think about others, especially those not as able, or those that are disabled. Do you really want to make the core game LESS accessible?

Edited June 15, 2022 by Lottie.5370

[Gibson.4036]

6 minutes ago, Lottie.5370 said:

spawn more mobs (scale them up better), 

So many events in the game have a design where a group of mobs come from one direction. Players kill them. Another group comes, possibly from another direction. Players kill them. A group comes from the first direction.

If they could scale the events so more mob lanes are added as more players are present, that would help a great deal. At a significant threshold of player presence they could spawn down the lanes simultaneously.

Even in escort quests, there are clearly trigger locations along the escort where foes appear and approach. Adding more, possibly simultaneous approach lanes would help.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_the_arboreal_spirit_to_its_husk,_and_drive_away_the_hylek actually does this well. The Hylek spawn from several different directions. I've been there with a significant group of players present, and the spawn points for the Hylek are far enough apart you can't get to them all before they are killed, so players spread out around the area and get credit.

I'll leave aside whether ArenaNet has the time or inclination to do the work necessary to improve old events this way.

[Labjax.2465]

3 hours ago, Lottie.5370 said:

 

I don't think making Core Tyria harder is the answer, and think it would drive more players away from the game. Especially if it's nearly HoT levels - not everyone gets new/better gear as they are levelling, in fact I've seen people at level 80 with masterwork/rare gear. I think it would make playing way harder than it needs to be, it's not worth it just to make better players, when it's supposed to be a fairly casual game that you can take at your own pace.

 

To make it easier to tag events: have mobs stay invulnerable for an extra second to give people time to target them, spawn more mobs (scale them up better), reduce the mount damage in lower level maps, etc.

 

You can react with the crying emote all you like, it's not me that has difficulty with the content, but maybe just think about others, especially those not as able, or those that are disabled. Do you really want to make the core game LESS accessible?

Fair points! A system that better gears you as you go (instead of the potluck of leveling gear we have now) would be needed too for such to work. As to the point about it not being worth it, I have mixed feelings: I've long been one who didn't like the sudden ramp up in difficulty with HoT, thinks HoT is brutal, and have complained about it a number of times in detail. BUT... short of them deciding to nerf HoT a whole bunch more all these years later, the unpleasant reality is that there's a disorienting chasm of gap still between core tyria content and the first expansion, so if you play in order, you are going to go through exactly what I went through all those years ago, as did so many others (albeit not quite as bad cause of nerfs and power creep since). If they ramp up difficulty slowly and thoughtfully throughout core tyria and find ways to teach tactics along the way and improve gearing (I know that's a lot to ask from development resources, but I'm talking concept here most of all) they can at least lessen that gap and a byproduct is we may end up with more players at end-game who are a little more skilled, and bridging the gap between the most skilled players in this game and the most unskilled is definitely something that needs work. And Anet seems to agree, given the tutorial stuff put into EoD. And the other byproduct being there's more reason to allow events to scale if the zones are harder overall and meant to draw in veteran players more.

I've probably made the very argument you're making before myself. I don't want to skill ceiling block people out of the game. But I do want the game to become more consistent in how it's approaching the skill issue. As it is now, it's something like: core tyria (chill, mostly) > season 2 (difficulty spike) > HoT (colossal difficulty spike) > season 3 (difficulty drop) and then from there it kinda just hangs at difficulty dropped below HoT levels. Which is just.... ??? Really not how you want a player to experience an RPG.

[Cuks.8241]

I doubt they would tackle something like low lvl event scaling. I doubt a general approach would work, could just break some of the events, so a lot of individual tweaks would be required. Also they should scale it not only by player count but also by lvl. Its a big difference if you have many new low lvls or many (or even 1 or 2) geared scaled down max lvls.

I think a better approach would be to just scale down players more aggressively. Scale down equipment stats more heavily. They could just down right remove mount dmg in the pre 80 zones. They could also heavily nerf runes and sigils when scaled down. This way you dont nerf the base character power but only the gear power.

Some meta events could be individually buffed though. E.g., Fire Elemental.

[Dante.1508]

6 hours ago, Lottie.5370 said:

 

I don't think making Core Tyria harder is the answer, and think it would drive more players away from the game. Especially if it's nearly HoT levels - not everyone gets new/better gear as they are levelling, in fact I've seen people at level 80 with masterwork/rare gear. I think it would make playing way harder than it needs to be, it's not worth it just to make better players, when it's supposed to be a fairly casual game that you can take at your own pace.

 

To make it easier to tag events: have mobs stay invulnerable for an extra second to give people time to target them, spawn more mobs (scale them up better), reduce the mount damage in lower level maps, etc.

 

You can react with the crying emote all you like, it's not me that has difficulty with the content, but maybe just think about others, especially those not as able, or those that are disabled. Do you really want to make the core game LESS accessible?

When we say harder its more EoD levels not HoT.. HoT is still on the crazy side for me.. even today. And not just harder, better events scaling, mount rentals, better rewards for newbs and vets, the whole Tyria needs to be useful to everyone.

On a some what similar topic why not make Warrior, Guardian and Revenants range options on par with all the other classes.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Vayne.8563]

20 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

This is not likely to be solved by player actions.  Players who behave as you note are likely doing so with the motivation of making sure they get credit for the event and getting it over with as soon as possible.  What makes dailies a thing for a lot of people is short time span coupled with a 2 gold reward.  If players were to "back off a bit," they'd risk not getting credit, which prolongs getting daily completion.  Since doing low-level events as a high-level player is not particularly engaging, that's not going to be viewed as a good thing.

 

ANet could solve this issue by reverting to the "events in regions" version of daily events.  However, despite the issue being raised from time to time, nary a change has been forthcoming.  Maybe they fear the possible "empty maps" if they don't cluster the population on one map?  I don't know.  I do know that if I wait around for ANet to make the game better, more often than not I've ended up disappointed.

I almost can't imagine people who do events to get them done quickly. There's almost always faster ways for experienced players. I want to do them fast and most days I do all the dailies in under five minutes. The only time I do dailies is when it's in the Silverwastes, which low level characters wouldn't be doing. Otherwise it's almost definitely slower. The vast majority of the time anyway.

[Dante.1508]

14 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I almost can't imagine people who do events to get them done quickly. There's almost always faster ways for experienced players. I want to do them fast and most days I do all the dailies in under five minutes. The only time I do dailies is when it's in the Silverwastes, which low level characters wouldn't be doing. Otherwise it's almost definitely slower. The vast majority of the time anyway.

I do them as fast as i can because i detest them.. very few events are enjoyable. I actively avoided metas for years because they were horrible to me. I only do them now because they are the only real option in owpve to get loot. They are like large scale hearts to me..

I'd much rather follow a story at my own pace.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Dante.1508 said:

I do them as fast as i can because i detest them.. very few events are enjoyable. I actively avoided metas for years because they were horrible to me. I only do them now because they are the only real option in owpve to get loot. They are like large scale hearts to me..

I'd much rather follow a story at my own pace.

Way to miss the point.

I didn't say you don't do dailies fast. I'm saying there's very very very rarely a day when you can't do dailies faster without doing the event one.

[Lottie.5370]

16 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Fair points! A system that better gears you as you go (instead of the potluck of leveling gear we have now) would be needed too for such to work. As to the point about it not being worth it, I have mixed feelings: I've long been one who didn't like the sudden ramp up in difficulty with HoT, thinks HoT is brutal, and have complained about it a number of times in detail. BUT... short of them deciding to nerf HoT a whole bunch more all these years later, the unpleasant reality is that there's a disorienting chasm of gap still between core tyria content and the first expansion, so if you play in order, you are going to go through exactly what I went through all those years ago, as did so many others (albeit not quite as bad cause of nerfs and power creep since). If they ramp up difficulty slowly and thoughtfully throughout core tyria and find ways to teach tactics along the way and improve gearing (I know that's a lot to ask from development resources, but I'm talking concept here most of all) they can at least lessen that gap and a byproduct is we may end up with more players at end-game who are a little more skilled, and bridging the gap between the most skilled players in this game and the most unskilled is definitely something that needs work. And Anet seems to agree, given the tutorial stuff put into EoD. And the other byproduct being there's more reason to allow events to scale if the zones are harder overall and meant to draw in veteran players more.

I've probably made the very argument you're making before myself. I don't want to skill ceiling block people out of the game. But I do want the game to become more consistent in how it's approaching the skill issue. As it is now, it's something like: core tyria (chill, mostly) > season 2 (difficulty spike) > HoT (colossal difficulty spike) > season 3 (difficulty drop) and then from there it kinda just hangs at difficulty dropped below HoT levels. Which is just.... ??? Really not how you want a player to experience an RPG.

 

You're right, HoT is a large jump from Core Tyria. I think LS1 helps this a little bit, but I'm sure HoT will still be a shock to people.

 

They could definitely better incentivise gearing as you level up, and I'd love to see improved level-up rewards.

 

I think this is getting off-topic of the thread though 😅

[Lottie.5370]

11 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Way to miss the point.

I didn't say you don't do dailies fast. I'm saying there's very very very rarely a day when you can't do dailies faster without doing the event one.

 

I'd say there's usually always an easy WvW one to do - Big Spender, Mist Guard Killer, Veteran Creature & Monument come to mind. I usually use one of these to skip a long PvE daily (i.e. events). I'd say they're normally always faster than events, unless you're spending 10 mins waiting for the veteran to spawn (which is unlikely if you go to Desert BL).

[Emberfoot.6847]

I think people killing daily events too quickly may be people like myself. I personally try to go out of my way to do very little damage, but I often do the events dailies as I do it at the same time as completing the map on someone who needs it. Not everyone is there to do dailies as fast as humanly possible, but I do agree it would be nice if more lv80s eased up on the dps.

[Danikat.8537]

I agree that scaling up events more than they currently do would help. It might also reduce the problematic behaviour because I suspect some players do this because they don't know what the criteria is and only feel confident they're going to get event credit if they kill as much as possible. (I know some games which restrict how many people can get credit for killing a boss, and usually award it to the ones who did the most damage.) If they can see there's no shortage of enemies to attack they may feel less pressure to do that.

Although I wouldn't expect it to stop entirely because I've also talked to some people who think the point of an RPG is to build your character to do as much damage as possible and act like not going all-out against any enemy is unthinkable, even if they know it's unnecessary.

Scaling the events up more would have the added benefit that it would apply all the time, not just when players are doing dailies. It's not as bad but you can get the same problem anywhere on lower level maps if someone on a level 80 character is doing map completion or whatever.

[Bingus.4236]

Before I got a mount, I just wouldn't do the event dailes because I often couldn't get to them fast enough with all the mount users. I think the answer would be more events with a set time length when maps are doing dailies rather than changing any balance.

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I agree that scaling up events more than they currently do would help. It might also reduce the problematic behaviour because I suspect some players do this because they don't know what the criteria is and only feel confident they're going to get event credit if they kill as much as possible. (I know some games which restrict how many people can get credit for killing a boss, and usually award it to the ones who did the most damage.) If they can see there's no shortage of enemies to attack they may feel less pressure to do that.

I did this the first time I came across a swarm of people doing event dailies in a core tyria zone. Maybe not to the degree you're describing, but this is the kind of anxiety I got from them making it so some events have an invisible expiration timer on participation credit. And in general, the fact there's no way to know whether you've qualified for credit, visibly, until the end.

After someone got mad at people after (I wasn't the only one using a mount some of the time) instead of during (tell me how that makes sense lol), I just decided to not do those event dailies anymore. Like I play this game for fun, not to overthink every action I do because it might mess up someone's event participation credit, ya know. As it is, if I remember right, I was already holding back some, I was just trying to use the mount to make sure I got enough of a hit in on some of the mobs.

[Hesione.9412]

9 hours ago, Emberfoot.6847 said:

I think people killing daily events too quickly may be people like myself. I personally try to go out of my way to do very little damage, but I often do the events dailies as I do it at the same time as completing the map on someone who needs it. Not everyone is there to do dailies as fast as humanly possible, but I do agree it would be nice if more lv80s eased up on the dps.

Same, I'll turn and move away from the enemy NPCs to ensure that I am doing no additional damage.

[Rogue.8235]

On 6/15/2022 at 5:32 PM, Cuks.8241 said:

Some meta events could be individually buffed though. E.g., Fire Elemental.

Bring back the days where the bridge was nothing but the rotting corpses of players?  I'm cool with that.

On a bigger note, it seems to me that core world event tweaking would need finesse rather than the sledgehammer of general changes.  Ceteris paribus,  some events are far easier to get credit in than others.  A major culprit is AI behavior making it easy to insta-kill in some events than others.  More so, some events have easily accessible, easily sniped mob spawns.  Earlier in the thread, someone brought up the hylek spirit event in Brisban Wildlands, which is a good example of an event that cannot be insta-killed by a zerg no matter the scaling situation.  To effect such change as to emulate the froggy tree spirit event would require meticulous work in all maps of the core world.  That's a massive undertaking.

In other words, universal number tweaking of mounts, scaling, etc., won't really solve the problem.

 

[Dante.1508]

23 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Way to miss the point.

I didn't say you don't do dailies fast. I'm saying there's very very very rarely a day when you can't do dailies faster without doing the event one.

I still have no idea what you are talking about, maybe how you worded it?