Follow up to the June 28 Balance Update Preview

[Ulysses.2058]

5 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

So you're seriously comparing wishing someone's death to saying somebody's not capable of doing their job properly? Especially when that someone admitted to having to look for their job's subject in a community-based wiki and playing favourites with its professions?

Alright, I'll take your statement literally and stay far from this franchise I've loved for more than a decade and its community, that somehow endures being laughed at over and over again.

[Slayerseventh.9843]

It is really upsetting to see the toxicity keep going on. I understand that people don't have much trust in developers due to multiple reasons, but nothing can justify being rude and toxic. 

[lex de gouw.6214]

Thanks for the update and the work you guys put in for us every day to make me able to play this game I have loved since launched!

 

Personally I am actually pretty hyped for the changes and can't wait to try out some of the potential builds which have opened up. I like how it's a step to make more playstyles available for classes, like quickness herald. I do think there might be a bit of tweeking required later on to balance those (might be too soon to call, people should try it first), but seeing the direction of making more playstyles available in a viable way makes me happy and have faith the game will be in an even better spot in the future:)

 

Thanks again Guild Wars 2 team, keep up the good work and don't let toxicity let you down, there are a lot of people who love what you do! (even the bad stuff comes from people loving the game and wishing the best for it, it is just missing the love for the people behind the game)

 

[Bhrutei.5937]

A formal response is much appreciated. However like others have said, that these patch notes have been near universally panned by the community that is a sign that the patch should be delayed instead of going forward with anyway. 

 

On the other hand, shame on those people that are giving death threats. That is never okay or acceptable. Our community should be better than that.

 

[X T D.6458]

7 minutes ago, Ulysses.2058 said:

So you're seriously comparing wishing someone's death to saying somebody's not capable of doing their job properly? Especially when that someone admitted to having to look for their job's subject in a community-based wiki and playing favourites with its professions?

Alright, I'll take your statement literally and stay far from this franchise I've loved for more than a decade and its community, that somehow endures being laughed at over and over again.

How can the two even be comparable? One is a form of criticism or personal verbal attack; the other is a criminal act. 

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

35 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Maybe it is just because I am autistic, but I've always hated generic coorporate-style apologies.  It looks like this was written by a computer.  Avoid the fluff and be straight with us:  You're just writing this try to and appear sensible without having to actually do anything.

you're talking a lot

but you're not saying anything 

when I've got nothing to say

my lips are sealed

say something once,

why say it again?

 

 

[SmoovRihx.2789]

2 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

you're talking a lot

but you're not saying anything 

when I've got nothing to say

my lips are sealed

say something once,

why say it again?

You speaking

In parables

No one takes

You seriously.

 

 

[Ulysses.2058]

1 minute ago, X T D.6458 said:

How can the two even be comparable? One is a form of criticism or personal verbal attack; the other is a criminal act. 

They are not comparable and they know it. What they are actually doing is using a fallacy, placing both people in the same "group" to discredit both at the same time, even if those criticizing the developer vastly outnumber those sending death threats.

[artio.6807]

Nothing will change.

This statement was a big nothing.

 

I won't support this update nor will I play until your design mistakes be addressed.

[Berune.7408]

5 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Perhaps more importantly, we need to share the long-term vision for Guild Wars 2 profession balance and how it applies to PvE, PvP, and WvW. This has been provided piecemeal over the years (and some of it has bubbled up through unofficial channels without full context), but we haven’t provided anything official. This is a good opportunity for us to introduce some new voices in the internal discussion as well–Cameron Rich for example, who recently took on the role of Lead Systems Designer for Guild Wars 2. This future post will be a larger collaborative effort that will take some time to complete, especially as we bring new voices into the process, but we’ll aim to have it ready before our next major professions update.

@Josh Davis.7865 so I read your post again. This quoted passage in particular causes me to suspect that you don't actually have a design philosophy for profession balance yet. Otherwise, I think you would have provided at least an official, high-level statement of the philosophy here and now.

I think the best things you could do would be to provide immediate transparency to quell the rumors and immediately address the most pressing outstanding questions. Directly apologize and state what Anet is going to do to make amends for this in the short term. In rereading your post, it seems like you've done everything you can to avoid doing those things.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Berune.7408

[X T D.6458]

1 minute ago, Ulysses.2058 said:

They are not comparable and they know it. What they are actually doing is using a fallacy, placing both people in the same "group" to discredit both at the same time, even if those criticizing the developer vastly outnumber those sending death threats.

It's not a fallacy to point to unacceptable behavior.... He did not say criticism is not allowed, there is such a thing as crossing a line.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Berune.7408 said:

@Josh Davis.7865 Directly apologize and state what Anet is going to do to make amends for this in the short term.

Apologize for what ?

[Bazsi.2734]

What the community has done over the last 3 days was an insane overreaction, but it still wasn't enough to stop you guys from pushing this update onto the live game... that's kinda sad. All toxicity and incivility aside, this patch in itself is just bad for the game. And whatever I could say here to justify my stance was already typed out quite a few times by many, even if it got lost between all the venting and insults.
 

Especially if the next big balance patch will be sometime during the fall... even if the next patch will flawlessly complement this patch and make things fall into place, we're still stuck with it for 3-4 months. I don't like this.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[brickogre.5236]

I'm a casual player at best, I don't do a ton of endgame content but seeing the leaks as well as the response bums me out. The fact that so many players are clearly upset and you're going through with the patch without delay has turned me off to the game honestly. 

[Rishnock.6230]

My comment's gonna get lost! But if it doesn't: the patch is bad workmanship, and the workers who worked on it are quick to blame others. The fact is, your talent did not meet the appropriate quality benchmark, and me stating this is not toxic. 

[Berune.7408]

Just now, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Apologize for what ?

1) Failing to provide context/reasoning for the changes up front. ANet stated some time ago that they would always do so.

2) The statements of the Dev dissing the player community.

3) Employing a secret feedback mechanism that his hidden from the largest segments of the player base.

4) Failing to deliver on the scope of changes originally promised for the timeframe of the profession balance patch.

[Jillian.4502]

    I think there's a big misconception about "the kind of community you want" vs "the playerbase we are". It is very virtuous that you wanna look out for your employees and I personally applaud you for protecting them, but let's not pretend that this is not a toxic response as well. We're not in Elementary School, we can all see that the toxicity didn't come unprovoked. The players who acted in their own vicious ways didn't actively seek out your devs for retribution for no reason. They reacted to a statement that was also disrespectful, which was a originated by your employee.

    The difference is: Toxic words and "death threats" online are bad and shouldn't be encouraged, but they don't affect the devs livelihood whatsoever (we can assume by your response that their jobs are well secured), while the devs' words DO affect the very playerbase that spend 10 years in this game, that you so claim to value. So, if you're gonna tackle this issue, what are you gonna do? Are your devs being scolded for their behaviour as well? Are you gonna start banning every player that says a toxic thing online? What is the root of the problem for you, and what is just "weed"? 

    For clarification: I am not part of the people who sent the death threats. I think toxicity is very unwarranted and uncalled for. But just like weeds and flowers, they come with the territory, and you can't just say "you're not welcome here" and expect that to solve the problem. 

[Oraxis.9705]

5 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

  Finally, I’d like to thank those of you who have approached this discussion in a civil manner. To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

With all due respect @Josh Davis.7865 there is a large gulf between those calling for the firing of the dev responsible due to his insulting and disrespectful comments, his admitted lack of knowledge,  and his clear favouritism and death threats. Those who have made those threats should not be lumped in with those of us who are asking for some sort of accountability and censure. I, and the overwhelming majority of the player base deeply hurt by his comments,  denounce those who issue those threats. But I feel it is fair to call for some sort of public rebuke or, at the very least, a distancing of Arenanet from his comments. His comments in total reek of unprofessionalism and a total lack of respect for the community. Personally I don't want to see him fired. I would prefer a reassignment and a new, impartial lead installed for the balance team. Frankly,  you can't be wiki searching utility skills and be in charge of balance. 

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Berune.7408 said:

1) Failing to provide context/reasoning for the changes up front. ANet stated some time ago that they would always do so.

2) The statements of the Dev dissing the player community.

3) Employing a secret feedback mechanism that his hidden from the largest segments of the player base.

4) Failing to deliver on the scope of changes originally promised for the timeframe of the profession balance patch.

1) Tommorow

2)The dev was having fun/joking with his 8 CLOSEST FRIENDS ,The community did the death threads

3)...no opinio..

4)We have a timeframe . They said this summer will have a balance patch and they did. Now they say in the Semptember-Octomber and they might do something urgent between now and then

(hello! its summer time ! excuse me they don't release faster +roadmap NOW in the heat... )

Edited June 28, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Ransom.1362]

Y’all better not ruin the game after I just started playing again I’m js 

[Zoser.7245]

Hello @Josh Davis.7865
I've been here from the beginning (beta) and to be honest, the feeling is... I've experienced this before, several times since the game was released.
That said, I'm surprised there's currently a dedicated balancing team because reading the available information, you know, my impression is that this balance update has been worked on by people who aren't trained for the task. And if someone had to be targeted this time, it shouldn't be the developers, but the one above them who didn't know how to select or hire the right team and early enough to foresee/avoid this situation. I mean, the boss.

I find it hard to believe that we are still like this today. It is evident seeing the votes that there is a lot of new community and players are divided almost 50/50 between veterans who already know you well and the new ones with enthusiasm for the future. The pandemic was a disgrace for many but a blessing for games, the expansion came at a good time and you are still riding the wave so try to take care of what you have now and not lose it...

If you really need help organizing and getting a good balance in the game. Feel free to send me a private message I'll see how to help with ideas and even design a protocol and methodology to follow in my free time. Due to my studies, training and work I can do it. But I can't avoid to see this post as more of the same I've read in the past and what happened is rather the result of poor organization and neglect rather than lack of resources or need for help.. The facts will speak for themselves in the future and not the nice words today.

After so many years playing, I also hope that the game prospers. My best wishes.

Cheers

 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Melian.5368]

I mean... Ok we get that you have reached level 80 in pr talk. All very professional. But this text gave me more concern than the patchnotes themselves. 

Yes we'd appreciate insight into the decisions made, but will you be able to offer reasons for things not done? Like untouched 300s traits, awful state of untamed and many more, will you be able to say "ok sorry but we ran out of development time for those, so we prioritized changing bladesworn utilities and spellbreaker dagger (which nobody will play). 

The thing is, I remember when you killed chrono F4, it took way too long for you to revert it. You nerfed mirage axe way too hard and never bothered to rebalance it. It took how long for you to revert firebrand healing mantra aegis changes? I'll say: too long. And now you say we will hotfix in a few weeks and rebalance in 5 months. Mid fall! 

Well, I personally know how underwhelming your patches are. I will tell it how it is. Every content and patch you offered in the last 3-4 years feel rushed & incomplete. There is always this feeling of "what could've been" but instead what we got. You lack the polish that your competitors have. And in years, this has made your loyal players weary. Now the veil has dropped, and people realize that "oh, ANet actually don't have the resources to present a satisfying product offering". "oh, ANet will miss the mark, again". 

It is in your hands to change this, but I believe that so many in your company have become complacent. This is your normal, but let me tell you, it is not enough. 

[Berune.7408]

6 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

1) Tommorow

2)The dvs was having fun with his 8 CLOSEST FRIENDS ,The community did the death threads

3)...no opinio..

4)We have a timeframe . They said this summer will have a balance patch and they did. Now they say in the Semptember-Octomber and they might do something urgent between now and then

Ok. I don't think the game Devs should make decisions on changes to the game based on feedback from his 8 closest friends, so there's another issue. Also, the dev is an adult, and should be expected to act like one when working.

My understanding from the post was that the design notes for tomorrow's patch will not be released until sometime AFTER the patch, and the full design philosophy for class balance would not be available until much later than that. The only thing I see promised for tomorrow is the patch in it's current form.

All that said, thanks for trying to help clarify.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Berune.7408
too much blank space.

[Anthony.8056]

I don't understand how they want people to play high end content/raids then give us a patch like this. If anything, I will stay far away from that content. 

[luigiormario.7305]

I personally think it would have been a better idea to hold the profession changes until the design notes are ready. Giving the community a chance to respond to your reasoning first, given that a lot of changes seem unjustifiable to many, would be a healthier approach than pushing the patch immediately.  I don't see why this patch can't be delayed a little, to adjust for the lack of context and time after initial preview, which is something that seemingly could be addressed immediately as opposed to the next major patch. 

 

Thank you for the ongoing updates!