Follow up to the June 28 Balance Update Preview

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

11 hours ago, Joe.5310 said:

this is an unbelievable joke.

You can't be serious.

If this goes live, your game is dead.

 

 

Well , now that the Dev is not getting fired , some people are in a BIG trouble 😛 

(xaxaxaxaxaxaxa)

(isn't it time to check , who owns -who account ?:P Its free-really estate)

Edited June 27, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Decinomicon.4619]

Don't release the patch please. And please talk about what people are actually mad about instead of tiptoing around it. A certain someone's balance philosophy.

[TheMysticOne.2049]

How about getting a balance team together that actually play the classes they balance. That would be sweet. 🙂

[Ashgar.3024]

53 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

If I had said those things in that discord, and was found out, any normal job would indeed fire you. The fact that it gets censored, and then the fact that you are going through with this update anyway with a meaningless post that is just words that mean nothing, means Anet devs truly do not care at all about their players. You must truly hate all of us. 

People harping on this are either giant hypocrites or never interacted with customers in any way, shape or form. People venting or being a bit snarky behind closed doors in private conversations isn't the problem here. Literally everyone does that at one point or another about their work. Even moreso if they interact with customers.

 

Feels like these leaks were so many of you guys first "backstage" experience and suddenly your reality shattered when you realized the people making your game are just... people.

 

Here's another fun one, whatever celebrity you idolize probably hate you too. Eminem even wrote a song about this lol.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Foxx.9150]

1 hour ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

Game Director Josh “Grouch” Davis here. On Friday we posted the profession update notes for the June 28 release and since then there’s been a lot of heated discussion about the changes and what they might mean for the game. I’ve read thousands of comments since Friday, and I think there’s plenty of reasonable feedback – there always is. I’m not here to address those issues individually, but rather, I’d like to share some of my own perspective and talk about our next steps as a team.

A Clear Direction

It’s clear that we should have provided better context for the changes. It’s much more difficult to assess a given change without a shared understanding of the underlying goal of the change and the problem it’s trying to solve for. I’m not saying that we think that the update is flawless or that this is purely a communication issue – there are always valid criticisms of execution, and we welcome that feedback.

For this update, we opted to forego including ‘design notes’ in the release notes that explain the ‘why’ behind the changes, and instead chose to provide a general overview in the June Studio Update blog. This wasn’t an arbitrary decision on our part, but in retrospect, it was the wrong decision. We’ll change our approach for future updates.

In the near-term, the team will be writing up the ‘design notes’ for the June 28 profession changes, which we’ll publish on the official forums as soon as they’re ready. I’d like to ask for your patience as we work on this while also supporting the release.

Perhaps more importantly, we need to share the long-term vision for Guild Wars 2 profession balance and how it applies to PvE, PvP, and WvW. This has been provided piecemeal over the years (and some of it has bubbled up through unofficial channels without full context), but we haven’t provided anything official. This is a good opportunity for us to introduce some new voices in the internal discussion as well–Cameron Rich for example, who recently took on the role of Lead Systems Designer for Guild Wars 2. This future post will be a larger collaborative effort that will take some time to complete, especially as we bring new voices into the process, but we’ll aim to have it ready before our next major professions update.

Feedback

As game developers, it’s our mission to deliver experiences that our players will love. One of the best ways to achieve this is by including the ‘voice of the player’ in the development process, before things ship live. I think this is especially true for a game like Guild Wars 2, where many of you have spent the last 10 years investing your time and energy into this world.

We can do better on this front. We don’t have a definitive solution yet – but there are plenty of options for us to evaluate, with different costs and tradeoffs for each. What I do know is that it’s my responsibility to the team and our players to ensure that our developers have the tools they need to do their job – and player feedback is one of the most powerful tools we have in our toolbox.

What I can commit to today is that going forward we’ll preview our profession changes much further in advance of a major update (not the Friday before), even if it means that the changes are still in-progress and the preview isn’t exhaustive. This will give the team time to assess feedback and make any necessary changes prior to an update going live. I think it’s especially important that we do this when we’re making larger changes to long-standing systems or mechanics.

Always Changing

I recognize that some of you are frustrated. Through the years, profession balance hasn’t always received the attention it deserves, and there’s always been a lingering concern that the next update may be a long way off. Before I was an ArenaNet employee, I was a Guild Wars 2 player, and I felt those frustrations myself. Your character and profession are the vehicle through which you experience the game, and the balance and feel of it have a significant influence on your moment-to-moment enjoyment of it. This is precisely why we created a dedicated profession balance team after the release of End of Dragons.

Guild Wars 2 is a “live” game, meaning that it will continue to grow and evolve in the years ahead. On the whole, it’s very different today compared to where it started 10 years ago, and those changes didn’t come all at once. Similarly, addressing core issues in profession balance and design is going to be a long-term, incremental effort. We can’t change everything at once, nor should we.

We’ll undoubtedly make mistakes along the way. My commitment to you is that we’ll listen, we’ll own and address our mistakes, and we’ll keep moving the game forward.

Wrapping Up

Tomorrow morning the June 28 release will go live along with the balance changes previewed on Friday. As soon as we can, we’ll follow up with the ‘design notes’ for the update. From there, we’ll be reading your feedback, evaluating the impact of the changes, and determining our next steps. We’ve added a follow up balance update to our release schedule in the coming weeks to address critical issues. Then, in mid-fall, we’ll have our next major professions update. Somewhere in between we’ll share our profession balance philosophy.

Finally, I’d like to thank those of you who have approached this discussion in a civil manner. To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

Josh Davis
Game Director

>>> Tomorrow morning the June 28 release will go live along with the balance changes previewed on Friday. 

tl;dr "we say we care about player feedback, but we really don't."

[Urphen.2857]

4 minutes ago, Nyel.1843 said:

Is there a screenshot or link to what the Anet employee said - the stuff everybody is calling out here?

It gets deleted every time because the dev's call it a personal attack, it was on reddit

[Lux.1308]

55 minutes ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Does that mean the official stance is to back what was said in those discord chat logs? My job would fire me if I spoke about customers in such a way.

I can only assume that it wasn't moderated as it wasn't official forums or open social media like Twitter.
Thing is feedback collection wasn't totally private and the process included some mismanagement.
They knew the risk but were totally not prepared for that.
Big problem is that Guild Wars 2 didn't have a Director for a long time.
Years since Gaile Gray departed there is no community manager and events (ingame and irl) organizer,
feels like Josh Davis.7865 is doing all this job at the moment😅
I wish all the best for the Studio and the new Director
towards clearer communication, more open direction
and more active official forums
that could use some restructuring😉(check out Star Citizen forums).

aka Lux
EU WvW Gandara player
#FREEGANDARA

[Taclism.2406]

1 hour ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

I like that a game director has the balls to say "kitten off" when things go too far. I for one was critical and a bit cynical (and still partially is), but I cant fathom death threats over a balance patch. Appreciated your few inputs during the last Teatime aswell.

The only thing I think you should have addressed directly in that post is the leak, because it caused way more vitriol than the patch itself. I'd imagine the appropriate stance would be to admit it wasn't smart to say something easily interpretable as inflamatory and that you had a talk with him about that, but also to underline that a bad joke is nowhere as bad as old drama like Jessica Price, and that you'll keep having their back.

[Wolfey.3407]

1 hour ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Finally, I’d like to thank those of you who have approached this discussion in a civil manner. To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

Josh Davis
Game Director

 

This is a two way road, as much as it's your community it's our community. 

So taking your words "To those that have chosen extreme toxicity ... –you're not welcome in our community."   

The use of death threats are never appropriate that much I will fully 100% agree with you on.

 

As a person in a management position, you need to keep your staff on a tighter leash. Their actions REPRESENT YOU, their decisions REPRESENT YOU. This is not the first and probably not the last time that an ANET employee made a fool out of them selves by targeting their players. This is not the first or last time that someone affiliated with ANET has been caught up in some kind of social scandal. 

 

Again, I do not condone any violent threats nor do I wish any ill will on anyone financially since it doesn't just impact them but their families as well. I truly hope that this time you guys will actually live up to your words and follow through, but until then... they are just empty words to score publicity points.

 

 

[Xenesis.6389]

11 minutes ago, SiEO.8430 said:

unbiased players like, lets say for an example MightyTeapot

Um yeah, that's a no from me.

[Mppa.3250]

I may be the last one that should have an opinion about this as I only play the game for like 3 years and also I barely have a stable opinion about myself... 

 

Regarding the patch and as a main warrior, yes, I dislike it. Yes, I upvoted some funny memes on reddit and /cried a bit in la and mlock sanct with my banners summoned. Thats all. No reddit warrioring, no flaming, no lfg demonstrations.  

 

I do love the game and spent and spending lots of hours of honest copium while I m also trying to support it by buying gems whenever I can. If this patch, the next one or any other decision will kill the game, it will be really sad. Not only for me but also for many awesome people that playing this game, supporting it, promoting it, helping-mentoring others and/or dedicated a lot of money and years on it. So my biggest concern isn't if there will be a pve place for my bs warrior the next day but if and how this patch -and what followed it -could affect negatively the game in the long run. I guess future will only tell and as I honestly mean this, Im trying to forget my personal interest. Though I shouldn't feel or think that way. And I am not the only one. I have no idea actually but I doubt gamers in other big MMOs worry about the future of the actual game after just a balance patch. I would guess frustration or even death threats towards devs happen(ed) there as well but I don't believe people worry about the the fall of the playerbase that much. Kinda same feeling-discussions there were before and after the announcement of EOD, after its release and it seems it will continue though you made it clear that there will be new content and at least one more expansion. Something isn't communicating right? Something isn't done correct? I don't meant that in another case there wouldn't be a lot of reactions and extreme ones but it would be focused towards the actual patch (or any other decision). One reason could be that Guild Wars 2 is being compared to other huge MMOs which feels like those pps you see in erotic movies and then you look down to your own one and you wanna cry. But its also the communication part from Anet's side. The image that the game has with not mass advertising, not being yet in steam (and successfully) and etc. 

 

When it comes to the toxicity and the death threats, it is happening to us, the players, every day and I find it pretty normal that it would turn towards devs too. Anet should do something different about those stuff. To ban someone sick for eternity may not be the solution but letting them just do their thing isn't one either. That also could be interpreted as "we don't wanna lose players" which also signals weaknesses and feeds the picnic... 

 

May King Joko be in your (and our) favor and size doesn't matter ❤️

[fondentenero.7893]

Are you really putting in the same category people that wished for the death of the devs and people who, peacefully and rightfully, demanded to fire someone for incompetence and inappropriate behavior (calling customers idiots is not ok)?
Btw fire is maybe extreme, but put people in their competence field should be appropriate, not someone that has naver played some professions to the balance team, for example.

Edited June 27, 2022 by fondentenero.7893

[suialthor.7164]

1 hour ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

 Then, in mid-fall, we’ll have our next major professions update.

You make things worse for some classes/specs, and players simply have to wait a few months and hope it gets addressed so they can have fun again?
 

[havs.8167]

“To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.“

This onus should be placed on your developers as well. Since one in particular said they couldn’t wait to see the anger that this patch would create, the community is very justified in believing that this team doesn’t even have the intention, let alone the ability, to provide that fun experience that you were referring to.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by havs.8167
Quoting is hard

[ArjukKagrim.6049]

“To become better, you have to admit your ignorance—at least to yourself.”
William A. Pasmore

 

I really hope this post is just marketing and the devs realize at least a little bit  that class balancing should be done by people who know a profession inside out...

 

[Vertanius.3281]

This is a 10 year old game, are you telling me you still haven't figured out how to release a balance patch without everything burning down?

[gsharkboy.1958]

Please, please don't release this patch.  Or please roll it back as soon as you can. 

[Dajo.4380]

Hi Josh and A-Net Team,

 

Thank you for a statement after this disastrous patch review. A few points directly towards your post:

Feedback: Please consider where you gather feedback and which parts of the playerbase you include. I am not fully informed, but it seems a lot is coming from a private discord with selected few voices. This forum as feedback point seemed to work well during the EoD Beta weeks and included lots of different voices, so a published general direction and work in progress patch notes might be a good start. Shifting through all posts might be tedious, but I think it is necessary to get a whole picture.
All right steps to improve and not repeat that mistake again.

Releasing the patch either way might be necessary (in case other technical changes are already in line with it), but please consider removing or at least altering the most criticized balance updates beforehand. Namely Ranger and Warrior got hit very hard in the PvE context in all their existing meta variants, and will find no place until the most pressing issues are fixed.

 

On a personal note regarding the patch preview: I think it’s good to open up build and slot variety by removing most shared buffs. But you (as well as all players) have to accept that some classes and builds are situationally preferable. Otherwise what’s the point of having the class and build choices? 

Please consider adding some universal shared buff for dps builds instead of Fury and Might generation, which should already be covered in grouped content.

I’m looking forward to see the explanation for these balance choices.

[Sploogesque.2801]

15 minutes ago, suialthor.7164 said:

You make things worse for some classes/specs, and players simply have to wait a few months and hope it gets addressed so they can have fun again?
 

You missed the sentence right before this. "We’ve added a follow up balance update to our release schedule in the coming weeks to address critical issues."

Edit: It was stated last year (May 2021) we would of gotten notes far more in advance, which we clearly haven't been getting. Just sayin'

Edited June 27, 2022 by Xunlai.3460

[Decinomicon.4619]

15 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

Because it is.

Or at best its semantics that completely miss the actual problems.

"Boohoo some game dev said something snarky about me, time to call for him to get fired".

 

Grow the f up lol.

No its that game dev said they buffed staff on mirage because they hated axe, or how they are going to keep making mace and signets better on mechanist so kits arent viable because they dont like kits, or that they never played ranger so they are using the wiki to see what abilities do before they decide how to balance them. It is not just "A dev said a mean thing"

[Dotveg.5108]

From a somewhat new player's perspective (just short of a year into the game), I am so confused by the amount of outrage this has generated. I have no idea what happened in the past but boy, I'm guessing this hit a very sore spot.

 

I'll just keep playing holosmith somewhere in the dark corner me and the other ten players who picked that spec have been hanging around for a while, wait for this all to die down.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Dotveg.5108

[Lottie.5370]

I'm upset that they are shipping the balance patch as is, and if it wasn't for my guild and the friends that I have in-game, I would have probably just dropped GW2 for a while and looked for something else to spend my time playing.

 

People have the right to be salty, I'm salty too - I've been whining for days to/with my static, but directing it as some people are towards the devs isn't helping anything, and if you're sending someone death threats over this??? it's completely unacceptable.

 

That said, most of the criticism here is completely valid and really isn't crossing a line at all. Could not agree more with a lot of it.

 

I'd hope they're going to do better going forward, but honestly I am done hoping for anything with this company and this game.

[Nuunes.5046]

[Removed]

Edited July 29, 2022 by Nuunes.5046

[Jokuc.3478]

I'm happy we got a response, it's good that we will get an explanation for the notes, but I am very unhappy with the descision to still move forward with the patch.

2 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Perhaps more importantly, we need to share the long-term vision for Guild Wars 2 profession balance

The thing is that your vision for the game - from what I have understood it judging by the patch notes and reading through the dev conversations - is simplifying class mechanics and build complexity to reduce the amount of effort a player has to put in to perform well. This is the complete opposite of what I and many other players want. Build and combat complexity is the main reason I chose gw2 over other mmorpgs.

So, when you say that you listen to player feedback I don't doubt you, but if this feedback goes against the philosophy of simplifying the game you seem to just throw it away, which is where a lot of frustration comes from.

2 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

I recognize that some of you are frustrated. Through the years, profession balance hasn’t always received the attention it deserves

And right now, we have devs making balance decisions on classes they didn't even play instead of having someone who has extensive knowledge about a class across all types of content. Seems to me like it's still not getting the attention it deserves.

Would you not agree that it is - for example - better to have a highly experienced Ranger player have a larger role in balancing that specific class?

---

 

2 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Does that mean the official stance is to back what was said in those discord chat logs? My job would fire me if I spoke about customers in such a way.

I am one of the people who are extremely upset about the patch and the direction of the game balance.

While I would agree that calling players names is a bad thing to do as a developer, I will also recognize that this is in the context of speaking about someone who is using an exploit that stresses the game servers and causes issues for the devs then purposely teaching others how to do it. It's definitely wrong but I understand that you get annoyed at such a person as a developer.

I read through the entire leaks and while there are a few snarky comments here and there, this was the only one that in my opinion calls for any kind of attention. It wasn't a recurring thing. In my opinion it's kind of silly to ask for them to be fired, it's honestly whatever. What I am more concerned about is the class knowledge of said developer.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Jokuc.3478

[Sploogesque.2801]

5 minutes ago, Dotveg.5108 said:

From a somewhat new player's perspective (just short of a year into the game), I am so confused by the amount of outrage this has generated. I have no idea what happened in the past but boy, I'm guessing this hit a very sore spot.

 

I'll just keep playing holosmith somewhere in the dark corner me and the other ten players who picked that spec have been hanging around for a while, wait for this all to die down.

To sum it up, most power classes are not even close to optimal for endgame content anymore. Some classes have it worse than others. This vitality change has buffed some condi classes, in specific the health gain from the anvil/repair canisters, and from the Mist Offensive Potion.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Xunlai.3460