Follow up to the June 28 Balance Update Preview

[Groggyfrog.9754]

Guess I'll just delete my warrior and roll a firebrand or mechanist. Really don't wanna deal with nerfs ever again and something tells me that these two are favored by the balance team.

 

[OnlyL.7314]

Hi!

I am sorry to say, but this response to the criticism comes across as very rude. The general message is

-) My side of the argument is in the right.

-) Your side of the argument did not understand why.

-) We will try to explain why we are right better next time.

A better solution would have been to take a step towards the playerbase, either by delaying the update and reexaminating it, or by listening to the easiest fixes to the updates proposed by the playerbase (for example: location of the 5% crit traits in traitlines, eg on warrior).

Thank you and please do try better next time.

[Ashgar.3024]

8 minutes ago, Decinomicon.4619 said:

No its that game dev said they buffed staff on mirage because they hated axe, or how they are going to keep making mace and signets better on mechanist so kits arent viable because they dont like kits, or that they never played ranger so they are using the wiki to see what abilities do before they decide how to balance them. It is not just "A dev said a mean thing"

I've read the whole thing, stop with the "gotchas".

 

These were just casual comments, last i checked Staff Mirage being viable didn't prevent Axe from being viable, didn't Mukluk post a 35k DPS Mirage afk build using Axe?

 

Kits are actually viable, its really rare that i play an Engi build that has less than 2 (my second most played class with over 1k hours on it). And he's actually right that full kit builds are miserable to play as well.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Ashgar.3024

[Absent Minded.5821]

Appreciate the communication Grouch! I admire your commitment to keep everyone informed even when the community is trying to burn everything down. It’s definitely a nice change of pace from previous years and I hope it continues ❤️!

 

 

…that being said I’m surprised at the decision to push the patch through. I thought it would make sense to delay at least until the team has a design philosophy or explanation available. Or even some very minor changes to prove you’re taking feedback seriously. I mean we’re counting on a single hotfix patch to fix everything and if it doesn’t… we wait until fall? 
 

I don’t want to discourage communication because man… it’s infinitely better than being left in the dark for years, but even just a little action behind these words would go so far. 

[Decom.4621]

WvW and PVP are dying bc of bad balance and this is going to make it worse . The OP profs are staying OP while the underperforming ones somehow got nerfed even more. Seriously every roamer is just running celestial with the most broken builds and if you don’t run what they do you’re screwed . Pvp is all harbs and Willbenders. And that’s still what it’s going to be. What a sad update for people who play the game for PvP and WvW . PvP pop is already extremely low for the playerbase the game has . And this is just you guys saying we’re totally listening but we totally don’t care 

[SlateSloan.3654]

i support anet since gw1 prophecies.

another damage mitigating wall of text...

next year same time it will be again "sorry we know that nothing got the attention it should have..." wawawa.

When it comes to making fast and cheap revenue via the store every non gw-lore related skin finds its way into the game immediately...

Its time that  everybody stops to buy gems. If you want to help your unhealthy lazy fat cat to get healthy again stop to feed it for nonsense 24/7 and make it move again.

I think all the mess we regular still see after 10 years is caused by our consumer behaviour.

Edited June 28, 2022 by SlateSloan.3654

[Wolfey.3407]

1 minute ago, Rising Blade.9206 said:

not to imply that death threats should be tolerated, but this response really comes off as unprofessional, does not really strike confidence on the fact that they're just telling people to kitten off, distasteful as it may be

I do fully agree. 

[Urphen.2857]

10 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

 

Considering i main one of the classes designed through the Wiki, yeah, i'm aware.

And that's an actually valid concern/criticism. See, you can do it. Leave the feefees at the door and focus on what matters. That's growing up.

 

To me its mostly an indication that their balance team is understaffed though.

Understaffed or not they had the whole forum community here with lots of feedback, the Mesmer community has done such a good job and it got totally ignored, its no wonder people are angry and it has nothing to do with growing up

[Decom.4621]

1 minute ago, SlateSloan.3654 said:

i support anet since gw1 prophecies.

another damage mitigating wall of text...

next year same time it will be again "sorry we know nothing got the attention it should have..." wawawa.

When it comes to making fast and cheap revenue via the store every non gw-lore related skin finds its way into the game immediately...

Its time everybody stop to buy gems. If you want to help your unhealthy lazy fat cat to get healthy again stop to feed it for nonsense 24/7 and make it move again.

I think the development of the last 10 years is caused by our consumer behaviour.

Imagine putting those new cosmetics every week into something to be earned through gameplay . Get people to do content that people don’t really do anymore . They can’t better the rewards for pvp or wvw but they give us a new skin every week 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Xunlai.3460 said:

You missed the sentence right before this. "We’ve added a follow up balance update to our release schedule in the coming weeks to address critical issues."

I didn't. I just don't feel that the perspective of having my two professions i currently play on (Warrior and Ranger - i guess the good part is that at least i didn't play ele as well) in a significantly nerfed down state for at least a month (without any certainty that helping them out will be considered a critical issue) very appealing. My warrior was taken in instanced content practically only for banners, so that's out now, and i've been getting snide comments about running condi slb already, so i guess it's going to get even worse now. And, like with warrior and banners, Virtuosos liking Spotter is not going to help now as well).

No, i'm not going to gear up a new class now - especially since i have no idea what will happen in a month. I guess i'll just cut down on my playtime. But i guess that's fine for you.

And no, you can't have my stuff.

[Sebrent.3625]

I hope the reasoning for these changes is actually sound and the path forward clear as I believe the reason for the negative feedback is that the perceived effects of these changes run counter to the goals stated by ANet as well to counter to what is actually played by players in raids, strikes, etc. (ex: Warrior's crit compensation being put in the Arms traitline and Elementalist's crit bonus only working while in air attunement).

I still look at these patch notes and people's reviews of them and agree that there does not appear to be a clear vision and that some seem to run contrary to stated goals. I do not like that. I'd prefer to think that there is a clear vision and these are not a miss in that direction.

[Virdo.1540]

2 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

 

Ah, the gw2 community in its element. Nothing new 

[Jokuc.3478]

9 minutes ago, Ashgar.3024 said:

I've read the whole thing, stop with the "gotchas". These were just casual comments, last i checked Staff Mirage being viable didn't prevent Axe from being viable, didn't Mukluk post a 35k DPS Mirage afk build using Axe?

The concern is not whether axe mirage is good or not. It's about the fact that a balance decision was made simply because a developer did not enjoy a specific playstyle. If there was statistics that 99% of mesmer mains hate how axe work then there's something to work with, but it seems like the motivation here was entirely personal.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Jokuc.3478

[Chaba.5410]

45 minutes ago, SmoovRihx.2789 said:

If a person stops supporting a game, what makes you think they'll support those who do? I never understood this kind of dumb kitten question when people talk about quitting. No, you can't have it because you continue to support the company the person doesn't want to support. It's not that hard.

It's just a question and there's no harm in asking.  Jeez.  I've received stuff in the past.  It's not that hard.

[pallas.8150]

Its very clear that 'Lead by example' is not the way that things runs at ANet.

 

Thank you very, very much for saving me the desire of purchasing gems to support the game.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by pallas.8150

[Anthony.8056]

When you are only seeing negative and memes to the class you play patch after patch, how do you think people are going to respond.
 As an elementalist since beta, it seems they just chip away at this class while laughing. Things are never touched or improved on and it's just a whirlpool of garbage. I play casually since beta but i know how to play Ele and understand how to utilize my skills. I think because this is the only class that requires a high learning curve you can see a huge disconnect between the hardcore speedrunners doing higher damage than causals. It's mindboggling how this class gets stuck with tradeoffs and nerfs (some are justified) but other classes breeze through everything and people defend it while laughing at this class.

[cyberware.3562]

The patch destroys my motivation to start with End of Dragons and I bought it some weeks ago. It's hard for me to decide and commit to one class. Firebrand and Mechanist feeling so dominant.  Every other class feels lackluster, even if they have more interesting gameplay. 

The toxic behaviour of some parts of the community is a shame. But these clowns do not represent the whole community!

Its good to see, that Arenanet start communicating with the community, more like Bungie. And as a Destiny player I know that it take time overhaul the class balance. But releasing this patch now seems for me as a huge mistake, because the result feels incomplete and and should not delivered to the players.  In the agile development every sprint should end with a shipable result!

Please stop this patch until the result is shipable.

Edited June 28, 2022 by cyberware.3562
Clarifications

[LucidHarmoy.6284]

I appreciate the transparency from the Dev team and will be back once they're going to work on these problems.
Saying we're gonna fix them and we're listening is what every dev ever has said and it's just PR until there's action. 
I'll be back in 3 months to see them fix the problems they've decided to continue to release. 
I understand alot of work went into this by apparently "a team" obviously new hires not experienced, hopefully after a few more months they'll have some real experience in the game and will be able to balance appropriately with actual experience instead of using theoretical vacuums and spreadsheets 

[xavios.3601]

I will say this much: 
1) I understand how Warrior Banners "needed" some kind of change in devs eyes. They were long lasting stat sticks, where such levels of stat buffs are normally from taking one trait over another, or having specific circumstances in combat. 
I imagine reducing the total stats provided over time would have been a better approach. Seeing how over the top builds performed in the parties with stat stick reductions, and approach from there. 
An even better approach would have been to adjust the "offending" builds, rather than touching warrior banners. The banners themselves are what, 3-5% DPS max? If that?
 

2) The "Death Perception" trait nerf/buff (nerf inside of shroud, slight buff to crit chance outside of shroud) effects more than Harbinger (if Harb was even busted, as every non-faceroll 1vX in WvW Ive seen, has the Harb ending up as a competent duelist, rather than a build that can wipe even skilled groups). 
I could have kinda seen (though not agreed) with the quickness uptime being considered an issue (as its permanent if done properly). But then again, nerfing quickness uptime means a significant DPS drop, with potentially nothing in return. Which creates issues with clear times. Again, adjusting certain builds raw coefficients slightly over time would have produced better results. Both in game and in the community.

Broad changes with a wide brush, as a result of issues with specific trait/ability combos making DPS, PVP presence, surv, or buff uptime a little too high for the devs taste. When, the responsible and reasonable thing to do, would have been a series of small changes over time. 

The world is not going to end, the game is not going to die, because you take some time to make sure the outliers in performance are brought in line. The difference between community support, and being laughed out of your own forums, is how you approach it. 

Scrap the balance patch, do a series of meetings with high-end PVP'ers and PVE'ers. Get their perspective too. It might be your game, but WE the community keep it afloat. WE are your playerbase, and your "wallet." Get over yourselves. 
That doesn't mean you cant exercise your authority as the games owners and designers. It does mean its a common effort with the community that enables your games existence.

Edited June 27, 2022 by xavios.3601

[LeiserTot.3648]

To me this post sounds like cheap "damage-control-talk" at a time when you should have done something or, at the very least, adressed the most pressing matter (the situation involving balance devs picking and buffing favourites) directly.

You are currently doing pretty much the same bs that blizz did, covering up a time-bomb instead of defusing it right away.

Don't "guard" your employees by putting up walls, either prove their innocence or help them correct their mistakes ASAP.

[Einsof.1457]

This patch should not go live. 

[pallas.8150]

2 minutes ago, LeiserTot.3648 said:

To me this post sounds like cheap "damage-control-talk" at a time when you should have done something or, at the very least, adressed the most pressing matter (the situation involving balance devs picking and buffing favourites) directly.

You are currently doing pretty much the same bs that blizz did, covering up a time-bomb instead of defusing it right away.

Don't "guard" your employees by putting up walls, either prove their innocence or help them correct their mistakes ASAP.

On the plus side - its out there. Its now common knowledge that this is how they operate, balances are not based on fairness and actual game design balance, but on the bias of those implementing the systems to have an upper hand. It is literally tolerated by the team and company.

Edited June 27, 2022 by pallas.8150

[Diktator.8927]

Bunch of words that mean nothing really...

Actions speak louder than words. You can keep saying how you will listen to player feedback, but that isn't happening at the moment. 

Show us that you are listening. Besides all the toxicity, the community has actually pointed out many issues with the game, and especially the latest patch. Fix those issues, show that you actually do listen to feedback.

There are bugs, unused weapons/traits that you said you were gonna address in this patch. You didn't really do any of that. I'd much rather have you fix all those issues first, and then work on balance and your future vision of balance. 

It's just beyond me how any of you actually thought this is a good patch that would be well received by players.

[mindcircus.1506]

16 minutes ago, Urphen.2857 said:

Understaffed or not they had the whole forum community here with lots of feedback,

This forum's "feedback" is largely powered by Dunning-Kruger.

[Joswi.2635]

I appreciate seeing some sort of response to what has been going on but I totally understand why so many people are upset. We get a studio update blog post talking about how you want to raise the floor and then a few days later we see patch notes doing the exact opposite. Classes that are already very difficult to be effective with getting nerfed and adding important boons to classes in a way that makes it so they have to do perfect rotations to maintain 100% uptime, if they can even attain 100% at all. These things definitely don't help raise the floor like you say you want to do.  I'm curious to see the reasoning you have for these change because I don't see how they fit at all with what was said to be the goal of balancing in the studio update.