Make WvW perm No Down state

[Draygo.9473]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I  do it all the time on my engineer with elixir S. Heck I've stomped single downs with 25 man "fight guild" stacks arriving on top because downing a few meters from it was all the time that was needed.

It is on an extremely narrow margin - you have like half a second from they go down to when you need to start stomp, if you pop elixir too early you'll go out in the middle of blob while still stomping (ie instantly CCd and dead) and if you do it too late they have time to res. You also need the escape planned with double dodges and preferably rocket boots or shield.

Even on a smaller 2v4, 5v10 etc scale this is just as critical to execute correctly because a single successfull stomp can turn the fight and a failure can loose it.

Of course, I also fail alot because nothing is fast enough when 3 res instantly (unless there is alot of damage thrown on the downed at the same time). I've missed so many stomps by like 5%. Not gonna hide the fact why I think 1:1 ressing is a good nerf.

I also use stealth to stomp when there not so much damage (and stealth friendly downs, sometimes blocking a stomp), or hope to the gods that elixir X give the right elite so I have a few seconds of stab+hp buffer without knocking what I'm trying to stomp all over the place (although admittedly, thats funny enough).

Saying "only FBs can sometimes stomp"... well thats zerg talk. I aint a zerg.

Ive been stomped by Elixir S more times than I care to count ;D. 

[Zyreva.1078]

On 7/6/2022 at 2:13 AM, Scruffymonkeh.3721 said:

but I don't really think an unorganized group should be able to pick off members of an organized group easier. Just the same, I don't think a smaller group should be able to pick off people in a larger group easier.

Why not? If numbers and organisation aren't enough - and both are quite a significant advantage - why should those players be given even more advantages? Fights in WvW are rarely even, so wouldn't it make sense to not give those already in an advantageous position even more benefits to make things at least a little bit fairer?

I also disagree that downstate management adds a whole lot of strategy to the gameplay, because options are often fairly limited and the desiding factor is usually the amount of players involved on either side.

4 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Of course, I also fail alot because nothing is fast enough when 3 res instantly (unless there is alot of damage thrown on the downed at the same time). I've missed so many stomps by like 5%. Not gonna hide the fact why I think 1:1 ressing is a good nerf.

Doesn't need to be 3. Even a single player without any bonus to rez speed can pick someone up faster than anyone can stomp, unless the downed body already dropped below 50% or is getting cleaved simultaneously. And there are more ways to deny any stomp, even the "safe" ones. Guaranteed stomps are not a thing when the downed has allies arround.

[Dawdler.8521]

43 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Guaranteed stomps are not a thing when the downed has allies arround.

Nor is a res guaranteed when there are enemies around...

 

44 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

I also disagree that downstate management adds a whole lot of strategy to the gameplay

Well that I can agree with because it's not strategy we're talking about, it's the deeper tactics of fights.

[Zyreva.1078]

15 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

it's the deeper tactics of fights.

Not a whole lot of depth in bringing more numbers and pressing F. More low than deep ...

15 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Nor is a res guaranteed when there are enemies around...

But it is more likely to succeed. There are more ways to counter stomps than there are counters to rezzing. Everything that can potentially counter a rez can also counter a stomp, but there are ways to deny stomping that don't work the other way arround.

Edited July 7, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Dawdler.8521]

Just now, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Not a whole lot of depth in bringing more numbers and pressing F. More low than deep ...

Stacking more numbers is always inherently unbalanced. You have to consider it within some kind of frame of reference and as such a fight between two roughly equal sides have the same advantages/disadvantages with added downstate.

Otherwise you might as well argue random balance things like how a squad *could* have 50 guardians therefor stand your ground should have 10 minute cooldown. Or that you *could* have a squad of 50 elementalist therefor meteor shower need to do 30 damage per hit.

Or should we balance a thief to be able to go 1v50? Imagine the exciting fights for zergs, there could be a thief anywhere!

[Karagee.6830]

On 7/6/2022 at 9:15 PM, Draygo.9473 said:

Again, you are invalidating a completely valid way to get a stomp because why?

Is Guardian invalid because it has easy access to stab?

Is Warrior invalid because warrior stances is easy, or they - you know - have an elite skill that literally stomps people?

Is Engineer invalid because it can go immune (tiny form) while stomping

Is Mesmer invalid because it also has a class immunity mechanic?

Is Necro invalid because it probably would rather not stomp and continue spamming giga aoe on anyone attempting to res?

 

I mean I literally said only thief safe stomp, smh. l.i.t.e.r.a.l.l.y.

All the rest requires you to blow cds which you need to keep yourself alive or to get the enemies down in the first place. Most of the other examples you brought are literally trade-offs, which I'm fine with and it's really telling of the general ignorance, not just yours, on this topic. As a Spellbreaker you can definitely take the banner instead of rampage as a roamer, the result would be that...you probably get killed on a +1 fight unless you are fighting complete scrubs on pve builds. You can still get interrupted. Same in a zerg, where you'd give up winds for banner, which is also pointless. All types of invulnerable are fine, some classes can move while in downed state which may negate that and you blowing that cd to stomp will increase the likelihood the second guy or the new arrivals are going to get you, especially if you use it and the enemy moves.

On 7/6/2022 at 9:15 PM, Draygo.9473 said:

Why do you have the right to win in a 1v4 anyway, run or get a friend or both. Its Realm vs Realm style pvp not dueling. 

It's not a right it's a necessity. Let's just say Gandara has been locked for over 2 years, permanently outnumbered and without a link for almost a year straight (like 3 links in 2 years). My friends can't join because we're never open for transfers and nobody can help because there is nobody. So yes this is all because it's not Realm v Realm, but Realm+Realm v Realm, which is the precise reason why they need to remove this in outnumbered situations and leave it when things are balanced. In pvp it works just fine and nobody complains.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Karagee.6830 said:

In pvp it works just fine and nobody complains.

In sPvP such an uneven match is over in less than 10 minutes and then you get into a new match with new allies and new enemies.

If only Anet thought some kind of rematching of teams idea would be good on a larger 2 month WvW scale, why havent anyone thought of this before?!?!?!

[Karagee.6830]

Just now, Dawdler.8521 said:

In sPvP such an uneven match is over in less than 10 minutes and then you get into a new match with new allies and new enemies.

If only Anet thought some kind of rematching of teams idea would be good on a larger 2 month WvW scale, why havent anyone thought of this before?!?!?!

Stated policy of Anet re: WvW: having teams as balanced as possible.

Try again.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Stomp should finish downs. Change my mind.

[Swagger.1459]

I think Anet should make a “stomp” simulator so players can practice finishing off opponents. That should definitely lessen the learning curve a ton. 

[Malus.2184]

On 6/29/2022 at 3:40 AM, mysticozzy.3589 said:

Best way to counter these boonblob bs, smaller groups can pick off numbers but the zerg boon blobs keep rally botting them. Make its perm NDS in WvW till the boonblob gets nerfed. gives others a chance at defending and cuts out the support in a small way. 

And this is the reason that your suggestion would wildly imbalance WvW, 

 

[Dralor.3701]

More finishing skills would be cool. Also wouldn’t hate seeing them nerf normal revives but not the skills or traits, at least there is a cost with taking certain utilities either to finish someone or pull them up.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Again, wouldn't mind seeing more weeks where we can play test different changes. Take for example just removing the 'x' times health factor that people get when downed. What about just testing a 1 to 1 health amount for a downed player that would still allow for various abilities and gameplay to be factors but not be so supportive of more numbers. As another thread was talking about a week where we test no rally, either revive them or they are out. Or combos of changes. 

[Lucy.3728]

No downstate and no hide.

Then I'm all for it.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 7/7/2022 at 4:43 PM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

and the desiding factor is usually the amount of players involved on either side.

 yes, this x1000.

Downed state benefits zergs and NOTHING else. It's bad but Anet loves their zergs.

[Sobx.1758]

Yup, do it 🙌

[mysticozzy.3589]

20 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And this is the reason that your suggestion would wildly imbalance WvW, 

 

Since that was released in NOV 2021, many changes and nerfs been done to counter this. but you do you and believe what u like 😄

[Malus.2184]

On 7/10/2022 at 10:19 AM, mysticozzy.3589 said:

Since that was released in NOV 2021, many changes and nerfs been done to counter this. but you do you and believe what u like 😄

This was from a "No Downstate" week. You also react as it's only one spec who can do this, many specs can do something similar to this as it's about taking the highest damage skills that are wildly impractical in a PvP environment due to their long cooldown and then just make hit and run attacks. Make a few of those and one person has just crippled a zerg.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Malus.2184

[Karagee.6830]

8 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

This was from a "No Downstate" week. You also react as it's only one spec who can do this, may specs can do something similar to this as it's about taking the higest damage skills that are wildly impractical in a PvP environment due to their long cooldown and then just make hit and run attacks. Make a few of those and one person has just crippled a zerg.

Right because the 20 or 30 that are still alive are forbidden from ressing the ones who got killed? if an enemy zerg sneak up on you stealthed and undetected, you are going to get blown up and wiped with or without downstate.

[Draygo.9473]

On 7/8/2022 at 7:27 AM, Karagee.6830 said:

I mean I literally said only thief safe stomp, smh. l.i.t.e.r.a.l.l.y.

All the rest requires you to blow cds which you need to keep yourself alive or to get the enemies down in the first place. Most of the other examples you brought are literally trade-offs, which I'm fine with and it's really telling of the general ignorance, not just yours, on this topic. As a Spellbreaker you can definitely take the banner instead of rampage as a roamer, the result would be that...you probably get killed on a +1 fight unless you are fighting complete scrubs on pve builds. You can still get interrupted. Same in a zerg, where you'd give up winds for banner, which is also pointless. All types of invulnerable are fine, some classes can move while in downed state which may negate that and you blowing that cd to stomp will increase the likelihood the second guy or the new arrivals are going to get you, especially if you use it and the enemy moves.

It's not a right it's a necessity. Let's just say Gandara has been locked for over 2 years, permanently outnumbered and without a link for almost a year straight (like 3 links in 2 years). My friends can't join because we're never open for transfers and nobody can help because there is nobody. So yes this is all because it's not Realm v Realm, but Realm+Realm v Realm, which is the precise reason why they need to remove this in outnumbered situations and leave it when things are balanced. In pvp it works just fine and nobody complains.

You mean, you have to take skills and plan your fight at a higher level to get those stomps in a fight? Which is exactly my point?

 

Nice goalpost shifting. I was not advocating for or against changing things when a side has the outnumbered buff. Nor advocating for or against anets systems of balancing overall server population. I'm on fort aspenwood which is also 'full' pretty much forever, so I also cant have my friends transfer in even though we are likely in T4 for nearly every week (except when SBI was our link and people were bandwagoning onto that server). I am also fully aware its Realm-vs-Realm-vs-Realm, but your example is a 1v4 situation so I'm limiting it to the two interacting teams in that specific instance. 

[Malus.2184]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:42 PM, Karagee.6830 said:

Right because the 20 or 30 that are still alive are forbidden from ressing the ones who got killed? if an enemy zerg sneak up on you stealthed and undetected, you are going to get blown up and wiped with or without downstate.

That was just one person. Now imagine if it was a full Roaming Squad of five. One goes in, kills some people, other Squad members start ressing them, the next player comes in and does the same interrupting the ressers.

In real-world combat situations if you want to make a trap you never kill people, you injure them gravely so that if they get assistance then you kill the ones assisting them. You have a similar situation in GW2 and ressing.

I wish people would actually study real battle tactics before they said something about how things should be done in WvW. I've seen this a lot.

[tom.7468]

also make it perma melee. lol you cannot use any range skills. they dont work only melee work. that would be a interesting meta!.