The LFG system is bad

[Danikat.8537]

12 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

If something is ineffective, it can often be improved. Talking about people like they are hopelessly braindead is just refusing to take responsibility for design, which is a conscious and deliberate process, but because of the natural familiarity with it that develops in those who build it, frequently winds up with all kinds of gaps in presentation that are never understood until ignorant people are in front of the technology. The same applies to other things too, like writing a novel, for example. A reader can shatter your notions of what kind of story you wrote. That some people sometimes persevere in spite of confusion and learn the design doesn't mean the design is fine and people who don't get it are inept. A designer needs more clarity than vague testaments about people's intelligence by those who are familiar with the technology.

None of the comments you quoted made any mention of the intelligence of the people who don't know about LFG. One called them ignorant, but that's a lack of knowledge, nothing to do with a person's intelligence.

Also no one here can take responsibility for the design because none of us work for Anet. Likewise no one from Anet has commented on the idea of an automated queue so we don't know what they think about the idea.

The point was simply that if someone has not read or has forgotten previous information about the LFG tool there's no reason to think they would read or remember an identical notice in a different place. To use someone else's analogy from earlier it would be like noticing people tend to push a door marked 'pull' and putting a sign on a wall approaching the door saying 'door needs to be pulled' and expecting that to fix the problem.

If you can think of something which might work you could of course suggest it. I haven't been able to think of anything, since the message probably needs to be delivered when they want to find a group but there's no way for the game to know when someone is trying to group up and isn't using the LFG tool.

Other than of course the existing 'fix' that other players will tell them. I think other players absolutely can be a valid source of information in a multiplayer game since no one is expected to go through the game alone, but that's also somewhat unreliable - there's no guarentee they'll be told about the LFG menu or how to use it when asking how to find a group. They may just get people offering to join them, which is ideal in the short-term but doesn't teach them what their other options are. Or they may get no response at all.

[Labjax.2465]

7 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

None of the comments you quoted made any mention of the intelligence of the people who don't know about LFG. One called them ignorant, but that's a lack of knowledge, nothing to do with a person's intelligence.

Also no one here can take responsibility for the design because none of us work for Anet. Likewise no one from Anet has commented on the idea of an automated queue so we don't know what they think about the idea.

The point was simply that if someone has not read or has forgotten previous information about the LFG tool there's no reason to think they would read or remember an identical notice in a different place. To use someone else's analogy from earlier it would be like noticing people tend to push a door marked 'pull' and putting a sign on a wall approaching the door saying 'door needs to be pulled' and expecting that to fix the problem.

If you can think of something which might work you could of course suggest it. I haven't been able to think of anything, since the message probably needs to be delivered when they want to find a group but there's no way for the game to know when someone is trying to group up and isn't using the LFG tool.

Other than of course the existing 'fix' that other players will tell them. I think other players absolutely can be a valid source of information in a multiplayer game since no one is expected to go through the game alone, but that's also somewhat unreliable - there's no guarentee they'll be told about the LFG menu or how to use it when asking how to find a group. They may just get people offering to join them, which is ideal in the short-term but doesn't teach them what their other options are. Or they may get no response at all.

I mentioned responsibility for design because that's what the conversation was about. Someone was saying it needs to be more apparent where LFG is, that it exists in this game, and someone was trying to say that if it's not obvious enough now, we should basically just give up on those people. Of course it's not our responsibility as players to design it better, especially since we can't even if we wanted to.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Ashreon.2840]

On 7/14/2022 at 11:24 PM, mythical.6315 said:

Here are the issues with a group finder that I can think of off the top of my head:

• Players have used the LFG for almost 9 years and it's unlikely to get the majority of them to use a new system.  A group finder would just split the player base.
• There's a cost with creating and implementing a system like this.
• The group finder would have to send you directly into the instanced content that was queued for.
• There's a cost with running a system like this.  From what I recall, FF14 has servers dedicated to this function.  While it wouldn't be as extensive for GW2, it wouldn't be cheap either.
• This would not work for raids due to roles which cannot be clearly defined with a group finder.
• It'll be hit or miss whether it'll work for strikes and fractals. 
• It wouldn't work well for dungeons if you're looking for a specific path as this is determined within the dungeon itself.

We already have a fairly decent system with the existing LFG.  Is it perfect?  Not even close.  It's as simple as creating a LFG stating that all are welcome.  It certainly beats sitting around staring at the screen while waiting for someone else to magically create a LFG for you.

There are some improvements that can be made to the UI itself.  I'm kind of partial to the way FF14 does theirs.  You have content categories and the listings themselves which include the specific content within those categories that you're trying to do.  There could also be ways to filter who can join although I'm sure there will be those who would object to this feature despite them still going to occur regardless.

 

 

1. That does not mean that it cannot or should not be improved. Accessibility as a Game Developer is one of your main concerns and right not a lot of content is simple not accessible as the LFG tool is horridly outdated. It is that simple.
2. There's an initial cost of creating an automated system - that is to say: They need to spend some development time and that's it.
3. No, it wouldn't have to. That's some serious made up kitten right there.
4. No, there's not. The system runs client side and use the servers already in use. IE. The instance servers in case of Dungeons/Fractals. The systems needed are already in place. It's just a UI and a search function that's necessary.
5. Why are we acting as if there's a lot of roles? There's 4. DPS, Healer and Support. Support encompassing Alacrity and Quickness (I mean, not that they're strictly necessary, but it makes it faster).
6. kitten, you'd just choose the path ahead and the path is set when you get in. 
7. It is a fairly kitten system. It is about as archaic as World of Warcrafts LFG Tool they had back in 2003 when the game launched that is how horrible it is. We have come along way since then and for the better.

All in all a LFG Finder that automates the process would do the game good for accessibility for all the people that simple do not like to waste time staring at a screen for whatever reason. You may not mind magically creating a group, but plenty of people do. Automated LFG Tool alleviate that issue and for the rest you can make your tailored group through the old finder. Both tools have a place.

I know that new people simply don't use the LFG Tool there currently is in the game. It is cumbersome, it is archaic and it seems unused (mostly because it fills up fast) which is a shame because it is a lot of missed content like dungeons, fractals, strikes etc.

 

[mythical.6315]

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

1. That does not mean that it cannot or should not be improved. Accessibility as a Game Developer is one of your main concerns and right not a lot of content is simple not accessible as the LFG tool is horridly outdated. It is that simple.

I never said that the LFG tool should not be updated. The post was about group finder.  There’s a difference between the two. 

Exactly what content is not accessible because of the LFG?

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

2. There's an initial cost of creating an automated system - that is to say: They need to spend some development time and that's it.

There’s also the the cost of maintaining it as well as running it throughout the duration of GW2’s lifespan. 

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

3. No, it wouldn't have to. That's some serious made up kitten right there.

It would have to otherwise it would be absolutely no different from the LFG. You could otherwise join a group finder for Arah but the group instead does AC or even fractals. 

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

4. No, there's not. The system runs client side and use the servers already in use. IE. The instance servers in case of Dungeons/Fractals. The systems needed are already in place. It's just a UI and a search function that's necessary.

There needs to be a server or system in place that will match players together. This would not run client side. I’m kind of shocked that you would suggest that it would. 

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

5. Why are we acting as if there's a lot of roles? There's 4. DPS, Healer and Support. Support encompassing Alacrity and Quickness (I mean, not that they're strictly necessary, but it makes it faster).

You’ve clearly not done raids. 

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

6. kitten, you'd just choose the path ahead and the path is set when you get in. 

You cannot do this for dungeons. For fractal yes but the issue with not going directly into the instance is what I have already covered. 

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

7. It is a fairly kitten system. It is about as archaic as World of Warcrafts LFG Tool they had back in 2003 when the game launched that is how horrible it is. We have come along way since then and for the better.

The LFG tool is not perfect but a group finder is unnecessary. 

13 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

All in all a LFG Finder that automates the process would do the game good for accessibility for all the people that simple do not like to waste time staring at a screen for whatever reason.

It would. All you have to do is create a LFG for what you’re trying to do if there isn’t a current listing,  it’s not that difficult except there are people who would rather stare at the LFG and wait for someone else to create a listing for what they want to do. They have only themselves to blame. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by mythical.6315
typo

[Ashreon.2840]

On 7/29/2022 at 4:58 PM, mythical.6315 said:

I never said that the LFG tool should not be updated. The post was about group finder.  There’s a difference between the two. 

Exactly what content is not accessible because of the LFG?

There’s also the the cost of maintaining it as well as running it throughout the duration of GW2’s lifespan. 

It would have to otherwise it would be absolutely no different from the LFG. You could otherwise join a group finder for Arah but the group instead does AC or even fractals. 

There needs to be a server or system in place that will match players together. This would not run client side. I’m kind of shocked that you would suggest that it would. 

You’ve clearly not done raids. 

You cannot do this for dungeons. For fractal yes but the issue with not going directly into the instance is what I have already covered. 

The LFG tool is not perfect but a group finder is unnecessary. 

It would. All you have to do is create a LFG for what you’re trying to do if there isn’t a current listing,  it’s not that difficult except there are people who would rather stare at the LFG and wait for someone else to create a listing for what they want to do. They have only themselves to blame. 

 

Arguing semantics never looks good. Some games call it LFG, other Group Finders. Most modern MMOs have an automated version and a version for those that really want to be nitpicky about their groups.

See, no. They already have instanced infrastructure in place and it would run off infrastructure already in place. There is no further cost to maintaining it unless you seriously think that adding an extra row in a database whenever new instanced content is added even remotely qualifies as that. In which case, please move on.

It really wouldn't. It worked just fine in WoW: TBC albeit it wouldn't let you define roles and that was its major downfall and the reason few used it. Other than that it wouldn't teleport you and everyone went to the dungeon they queued for. You're just making up excuses.

 

Uhm, hello. Yes, the search function runs client side. Your client is the one that pings the server if more people are looking for the same thing - it's not the server pinging the client. The server just maintains an array of people currently in a queue - nothing more.

 

I have done raids, oh no. You need a DPS with Toughness. Oh my. Oh no. Whatever shall we do. How about.. Just having an extra role for Raids. Such difficulty.

 

You really can, instead of talking to an NPC inside which sets the variable for the dungeon path, the dungeon finder does it for you. Again, this is basic stuff you learn the first year of software engineering.  As I have said, these automated systems have worked before - there's no reason why they can't work again.

 

The LFG Tool is useless. A group finder, LFG or whatever you feel like calling it would make it easier on all parties involved. I know that, you know that. I don't see why you're even trying to debate this. 

Not everyone is comfortable making a listing, because making a listing also implies you will lead the group and an amazing amount of people do not like such pressure put on them.

I suspect you're the same kind of peeps that believe World of Warcraft "died" because they made an automated LFG. Except that opened up the game to millions of people. You sure do advocate the same silly reasons as they do.

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

The LFG Tool is useless.

This statement is constantly proven wrong by people actually playing the game while using said "useless" lfg tool with next to no issues.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[mythical.6315]

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

Arguing semantics never looks good. Some games call it LFG, other Group Finders. Most modern MMOs have an automated version and a version for those that really want to be nitpicky about their groups.

Do you truly know what "arguing semantics" actually means?  There's a difference between a system where you create a listing that other players can then join versus one where players queue up for and automatically get placed into group.  That is not semantics so please refrain from baseless accusations. 

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

See, no. They already have instanced infrastructure in place and it would run off infrastructure already in place. There is no further cost to maintaining it unless you seriously think that adding an extra row in a database whenever new instanced content is added even remotely qualifies as that. In which case, please move on.

No they don't.

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

It really wouldn't. It worked just fine in WoW: TBC albeit it wouldn't let you define roles and that was its major downfall and the reason few used it. Other than that it wouldn't teleport you and everyone went to the dungeon they queued for. You're just making up excuses.

Nope.

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

Uhm, hello. Yes, the search function runs client side. Your client is the one that pings the server if more people are looking for the same thing - it's not the server pinging the client. The server just maintains an array of people currently in a queue - nothing more.

Uhm, hello.   We were discussing the system to automatically group players together for instanced content.  This would never run client side.

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

I have done raids, oh no. You need a DPS with Toughness. Oh my. Oh no. Whatever shall we do. How about.. Just having an extra role for Raids. Such difficulty.

I disagree that you have.  Take Adim 2 for example, you need people that can do pylons.  For Dhuum, you need people who can do greens and someone to kite.  For Deimos, you need a kiter.  Those are but a few examples and none of them are based on the ones you mentioned.  They also vary from raid boss to raid boss.

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

The LFG Tool is useless. A group finder, LFG or whatever you feel like calling it would make it easier on all parties involved. I know that, you know that. I don't see why you're even trying to debate this. 

It would not make it easier for all parties involved.  I don't see how you could possibly make that claim and actually be serious doing so.  The only benefit that an automated system would provide is that it removes the need for players to create their own posting on the existing LFG system.  That benefit really is marginal at best as it takes as much effort to create a posting on the LFG system as it would to queue.

The LFG tool is not useless.  Players have used it successfully for around 9 years.

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

You really can, instead of talking to an NPC inside which sets the variable for the dungeon path, the dungeon finder does it for you. Again, this is basic stuff you learn the first year of software engineering.  As I have said, these automated systems have worked before - there's no reason why they can't work again.

You try to insult me with "basic stuff you learn the first year of software engineering" but you fail to understand that dungeons are not built to have the path determined prior to joining the instance. 

8 hours ago, Ashreon.2840 said:

I suspect you're the same kind of peeps that believe World of Warcraft "died" because they made an automated LFG. Except that opened up the game to millions of people. You sure do advocate the same silly reasons as they do.

Please refrain again from the personal attacks.

Edited August 1, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Hashberry.4510]

They want the rest of the players trapped into this crab bucket.

[Count The Medals.4738]

I just want my turtle bit but there's never any groups in the LFG panel in my social window for this strike mission thing, how do I get this done? 

[The Boz.2038]

Huh?
Strikes are regularly on the LFG. Sure, you might wait for a while to find a raid group going, but strikes are a dozen an hour.

[Linken.6345]

18 hours ago, Count The Medals.4738 said:

I just want my turtle bit but there's never any groups in the LFG panel in my social window for this strike mission thing, how do I get this done? 

Start your own lfg so the window aint empty anymore there are atleast 20 people just like you who never start the lfg and just stare at it.

[Count The Medals.4738]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:18 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Start your own lfg so the window aint empty anymore there are atleast 20 people just like you who never start the lfg and just stare at it.

Unfortunately, I feel by starting a group, I'm obliged to run it as the leader.  I literally have no idea what I'm doing here with the mission and I think that is the overall problem.  The onus of group creation (whether real or imagined) is the real barrier to entry.

 

[Sobx.1758]

On 10/11/2022 at 12:56 AM, Count The Medals.4738 said:

I just want my turtle bit but there's never any groups in the LFG panel in my social window for this strike mission thing, how do I get this done? 

Are you on EU or NA?

[Count The Medals.4738]

On 10/11/2022 at 3:43 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

Huh?
Strikes are regularly on the LFG. Sure, you might wait for a while to find a raid group going, but strikes are a dozen an hour.

 

I'm looking at the panel right now and there's literally 1 strike and not for the one I need... where do I need to look? 

[Warscythes.9307]

1 hour ago, Count The Medals.4738 said:

Unfortunately, I feel by starting a group, I'm obliged to run it as the leader.  I literally have no idea what I'm doing here with the mission and I think that is the overall problem.  The onus of group creation (whether real or imagined) is the real barrier to entry.

 

You can look it up. There's plenty of guides on the encounter itself. Also you can study up on your builds and know about the meta comps. Learning about your character is important especially if you don't want your turtle run be a 30 minute corpse fest.

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, Count The Medals.4738 said:

 

I'm looking at the panel right now and there's literally 1 strike and not for the one I need... where do I need to look? 

Experienced or Training?

[Artemis.8034]

Personally i agree that there are way too many unused categories in the LFG, it needs to be cleaned up. I like the idea of a lfg watch tool, cant tell you the number of times i missed out on something because i didnt have the window open spamming it. One other thing that would help there should be an auto group system that will allow  players to group for raids strikes dungeons fractals  ,like what you see with the public instances for dragonstorm  etc. All it needs is a role check when you add  yourself, so join public raid wing 1 role, dps , heal , quick, alac  support. The system would slot the roles. Lets face it a lot of people want an easy system that allows them to do stuff without having to apply to a commander and all that entails.