WvW ballance 19/7

[Aeolus.3615]

17 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

I find willbender in spvp to be relatively balanced but total broken in wvw smal scale

Its a plus one'r like DH, can bring the inbalance into the fight when catching enemies by surprise.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

10 hours ago, Arolandis.8360 said:

Fair point, but what makes a class A-tier and what makes another one B-tier? Every class has a strong build available to them that can beat a Willbender. Is no class ever allowed to burst and run? Should thieves be deleted? Do you remember that building glassy makes you easy prey the moment you're CC'd? If a Willbender runs away because you're kicking it's kitten is it really any different than a thief? Why so much focus on Willbenders?

If they're built for power, they're basically dead without their mobility, like thieves, but without stealth access on top. Even Engineers have superspeed and stealth access, with ranged grenade spam, and rocket boots/rifle leap.

If they're built for celestial...eh, other classes do it better.

My point is basicially that I still don't think Willbenders need nerfs in WvW, regardless of what "tier" it is. (A-tier)

As you focus on comparing to Thief, it's not hard to see how WB is overtuned:

Mobility: A heavy-armor class that took the "king of mobility" title from Thief.  So it has best-in-game chase and disengage potential, which means it 100% picks its fights.

Survivability: Thief really only has stealth--with all the counterplay and anti-stealth mechanics in WvW (marked, revealed) that literally cancel Thief's primary survival strategy.  Stealth by definition means not fighting, not doing damage, not capturing objectives.  It's a glorified "time out."  Meta WB has block (Aegis) spam, on-block traits, high protection up-time, access to stability, and access to invulns/effective invulns in Renewed Focus and Reversal of Fortune, all on a heavy armor class.  A key difference: WB's types of survivability allow it to actually remain engaged in a fight or objective capture.

Offense: When Thief fails a burst, its only options are to disengage or stay and die.  When WB fails a burst, it can stick around and brawl, thanks to its superior survivability.  If things go south, it can outrun anything that isn't another WB.  Otherwise, it can stick to its opponent who has no chance of escape.

Certainly in 1v1, skill being equal, I don't see how WB isn't favored versus most Thief builds.  WB is more or less the non-stealth-dependent, mobile brawler concept that many thief players have long wanted.  Dare I say WB is basically a better thief?

In a perfect balance world, tiers wouldn't even exist, because everything would be in the same tier.  So if we'd rather not nerf WB, then underperforming builds should be buffed to bring them more in line.  The problem with balancing things this way too much is it leads to overall power creep and sets the meta up for mass nerfs like in February 2020 again.

[Arolandis.8360]

On 7/21/2022 at 6:41 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Mobility: A heavy-armor class that took the "king of mobility" title from Thief.  So it has best-in-game chase and disengage potential, which means it 100% picks its fights.

Survivability: Thief really only has stealth--with all the counterplay and anti-stealth mechanics in WvW (marked, revealed) that literally cancel Thief's primary survival strategy.  Stealth by definition means not fighting, not doing damage, not capturing objectives.  It's a glorified "time out."  Meta WB has block (Aegis) spam, on-block traits, high protection up-time, access to stability, and access to invulns/effective invulns in Renewed Focus and Reversal of Fortune, all on a heavy armor class.  A key difference: WB's types of survivability allow it to actually remain engaged in a fight or objective capture.

Offense: When Thief fails a burst, its only options are to disengage or stay and die.  When WB fails a burst, it can stick around and brawl, thanks to its superior survivability.  If things go south, it can outrun anything that isn't another WB.  Otherwise, it can stick to its opponent who has no chance of escape.

I'm comparing it to thief, yes, to show that if they're almost as good as a thief, or on par, then why does Willbender need nerfs? The damage numbers are on par with what other classes can achieve with similar stats. And their kit is fair, It relies on attacking to even trigger.

As a longtime Thief main, Thief has more mobility than Willbender. So yes BY DESIGN they need the tools to stick around and brawl. Especially on power builds, which most Thieves can get away with running Berserker gear with. My Thief hits like a truck.

Thieves don't just have stealth, they can kite with dashes and superspeed, dagger leaps and sword shadowsteps, even specter wells now, they have blinds, they have a lot of interrupt access, they have boon steal, they have good sustain, most of their utilities are also a stunbreak. You don't even NEED stealth on thief. I played mine without it, focusing on dodges, and evades on weapon skills along with the rest of their tools. Their options aren't just "disengage or stay and die".

Willbenders are similar to thieves, but they're not "better", just designed differently. This class and the people that play it don't need to be punished for it with nerfs.

If classes just have their kits nerfed, then we end up with less counterplay to enjoy fights with. You end up with large gaps where you can't fight and simply die. That sounds worse than getting 1 Up'd by a random roamer. I don't want ANY classes nerfed, even if they're annoying. (*cough* Soulbeast, which Willbender is below)

Edited July 23, 2022 by Arolandis.8360

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, Arolandis.8360 said:

If classes just have their kits nerfed, then we end up with less counterplay to enjoy fights with. You end up with large gaps where you can't fight and simply die. That sounds worse than getting 1 Up'd by a random roamer. I don't want ANY classes nerfed, even if they're annoying. (*cough* Soulbeast, which Willbender is below)

Love to hear how 'blue thief' is below Soulbeast--and please don't start the argument with 'longbow' when ol' willy has 9000 ways to gap close...

Edited July 22, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Dawdler.8521]

10 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Survivability: Thief really only has stealth

LOL!

I'm not even going to do anymore than laugh at that.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

LOL!

I'm not even going to do anymore than laugh at that.

Another constructive comment from the forum smart aleck.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Another constructive comment from the forum smart aleck.

Its got ports, interrupts, blinds, dodges/evades. Also if you roam in wvw stealth is the only reliable disengage.

Granted, good thieves are rare so maybe it looks like a thief has only stealth to survive.

[Magnuzone.8395]

Skill balance, hah. Never going to happened.

 

But for the love of God can we at least have language balance back so we can talk to each other.

 

Welcome to WSR:

- Me:  "Any eyes on Mendon"

- Answer: "j'adore manger des escargots"

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

10 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Its got ports, interrupts, blinds, dodges/evades. Also if you roam in wvw stealth is the only reliable disengage.

Granted, good thieves are rare so maybe it looks like a thief has only stealth to survive.

Sure, but at the end of the day, who's the better thief?  Willbender or... Thief?  That's basically the sub-debate Arolandis and I were having since WB got compared to Thief.  The survive options you mentioned only go so far and are 100% active defenses.  WB is loaded with passive block spam and on-block traits, near perma-Protection, access to stab and invuln, all on a heavy armor class that's at least as mobile as Thief.  When you have that combination of survivability, mobility, and burst potential, who needs stealth?  WB can do everything a good Thief player can do, but with a lot less effort.  Chalk it up to classic xpac power creep.

[Xenesis.6389]

11 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Its got ports, interrupts, blinds, dodges/evades. Also if you roam in wvw stealth is the only reliable disengage.

Granted, good thieves are rare so maybe it looks like a thief has only stealth to survive.

Pretty amazing to me whenever there's talk on thief they talk about stealth as their only defense.

The amount of times black powder blind saved me from attacks and securing stomps when I played deadeye was amazing, but I guess real thieves are only suppose to use it for stealth. 🤭

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

11 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Sure, but at the end of the day, who's the better thief?  Willbender or... Thief?  That's basically the sub-debate Arolandis and I were having since WB got compared to Thief.  The survive options you mentioned only go so far and are 100% active defenses.  WB is loaded with passive block spam and on-block traits, near perma-Protection, access to stab and invuln, all on a heavy armor class that's at least as mobile as Thief.  When you have that combination of survivability, mobility, and burst potential, who needs stealth?  WB can do everything a good Thief player can do, but with a lot less effort.  Chalk it up to classic xpac power creep.

Both are equally toxic for game as a whole in long run. Teef is still better than Willbender if you compare them in the void with equally skilled players. Stealth alone outweights Willbender kit by a lot. Damage, mobility and sustain means little to nothing if your target can just vanish from your screen every 3s and you have to play some pepe mind game of guessing where it went or if it hasn't ported to spawn yet. Other teef variants offer a lot of evades and teleports, willbender will barely keep-up with it.
Should it get nerfed? Sure, it does have too much mobility for a heavy class, but comparing it to teef is a bit of a joke at best.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Wait I cannot process how a thief main is complaining that they are not as mobile or thinks any other class in the game is more mobile then they are...or that another class can disengage better then they can...talk about player quality going down the drain....