Something weird about raids

[Vilin.8056]

3 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

No in original one. Also - bike was invented in 19th century, but we are still using it. Raid enrage timers are cheap difficulty, when devs need artificial difficulty

Yet unlike Bikes, the majority of these MMOs you mentioned are obsolete, for a good reason.

As for those who still suffering enrage timer even with all these patch buffs, there's really not much of a valid point on whether it is a cheap or artificial difficulty, to be said from players who couldn't make 15k dps in PvE with full boons. Tediousity simply isn't a solution for skill gap.

3 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

And as was mentioned:

Timers and enrage ensure that fight doesn't last hours or can be cheesed by having all-healers comp. 

And what's the point of cheesing enrage with all healer comp? 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Krzysztof.5973]

1 hour ago, Vilin.8056 said:

And what's the point of cheesing enrage with all healer comp? 

To get the loot by doing long and tedious encounter without any skill or high effort? idk

[Einsof.1457]

On 8/4/2022 at 2:21 PM, Nephalem.8921 said:

w1-w4 are basically dps golems without mechanics. most bosses have 1-2 mechanics at most. a single savage boss has more mechanics than wing 1-5 combined.

Did you not read what I wrote? The gw2 raids at least have dynamic, interesting elements. FFXIV all fights play out exactly the same. Also you're lying. Five variations of dodge lava isn't interesting at all. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Firebeard.1746]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:20 PM, Vidit.7108 said:

Once my envoy collection is complete and I get to see the story for each raid, I'm not really planning on touching most of these ever again. The rewards are bad and the time commitment is insane. When my old guild used to raid every week in this game, it always seemed like it stressed them out. I can't speak to how much fun they had back then but they seem a lot happier in FFXIV now.

 

Most of your observations are spot on. I would agree the number of 1-time roles hampers to ability of players to effectively raid after stepping into them.

 

That being said, if anet were to change raid design, it would hurt the current raid community because they enjoy the complexity. Maybe the solution would be to alternately release strike cms and raids, keeping standardized mechanics in strike cms but branching out more in raid. 

 

You may change your mind about not continuing. It's a one-time cost. Maybe you'll be different because you have friends in another game, but once i learned the encounters i've kept raiding because i enjoy it on some level.  once you learn the encounters, the g/h isn't bad and you have to be really bad for the legendary armor progress to not be worth it compared to WvW or PvP.  I want to have a complete collection of legendary armor of each type as an altoholic.

 

My first forays into raiding in this game were absolute hell. But after i got used to it, i started noticing how cool some of the encounters are. Even though i haven't done Dhuum much, i feel it's one of the coolest raid encounters i've ever done, only rivaled by Argus the unmaker and i can't decide which i liked more. The feel if the Xera fight is quite amazing and even though it's one of the more difficult encounters, it's up there with Dhuum and Argus. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Vidit.7108]

5 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

That being said, if anet were to change raid design, it would hurt the current raid community because they enjoy the complexity. Maybe the solution would be to alternately release strike cms and raids, keeping standardized mechanics in strike cms but branching out more in raid. 

I don't know what the solution is or if there even is one that keeps everyone happy. The current raid community however big they are aren't around in PUGs much from what I can tell. 

As an update: I've only gotten less interested in doing raids the more I do them. The g/h pugging raids seems worse to me than my daily fractal or spending the same amount of time in the silverwastes. It also is hurt by not being able to get gold daily from clearing a raid I cleared already that week. I stayed pretty committed to trying to do the story each embolden week until W6 &W7, training groups have dried up since the initial hype and I couldn't really get into those. Plus W7 just looked daunting even with embolden and so my enthusiasm has collapsed. I only do W1 and W4 now each week and am counting the weeks until I can quit.

I want to try and learn some of those special skills (tanking kiting etc) but the opportunities have shrunk by a lot since I started. I've tried to help out some other training groups for the raids I know well at this point but a lot of them have gone very poorly compared to ones I was getting into at the start of embolden. Low pressure environments to shore up skills I do have are rare which is why I've stopped with W2 and W3. 

I've had some good experiences with groups/guilds I pugged into but also lots of bad ones. Many say I will enjoy raiding eventually and won't want to stop but frankly, I'm barely motivated to finish the first set of envoy armor anymore. I'm on the last two pieces and I decided to not bother with the ring.

Xera looks cool but I'm constantly panicked about gliding jank killing me and then I'm mostly bored by the rest of the fight. 

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Vidit.7108 said:

The current raid community however big they are aren't around in PUGs much from what I can tell. 

Ofc. not, people usually only PuG content if they can generally expect things to go "smooth enough" for their taste which is why you see a lot more people PuGing strikes (first and foremost the early IBS ones), Fractals in general and especially OW metas then you would for [insert raid wing here].

There are ofc. various solutions they (A-Net) could go for which would all require people to accept some compromises which many are not willing to so it's either A-Net pushing through with one of them or the status quo.

[LKEY.9567]

Oh no, Raid Community is dying out due to lack of new content, questionable profession updates. How is it there is noone to pug/train with us?

Raid Community does clears with statics and are not interested in helping out pugs due to no reward time involvement.

[Vilin.8056]

On 8/29/2022 at 6:14 AM, Vidit.7108 said:

I've had some good experiences with groups/guilds I pugged into but also lots of bad ones. Many say I will enjoy raiding eventually and won't want to stop but frankly, I'm barely motivated to finish the first set of envoy armor anymore. I'm on the last two pieces and I decided to not bother with the ring.

Xera looks cool but I'm constantly panicked about gliding jank killing me and then I'm mostly bored by the rest of the fight. 

https://dps.report/AK8t-20220906-023019_vg

https://dps.report/Iyfx-20220906-024438_gors

https://dps.report/GCOK-20220906-030637_sab

FYR

Frankly, I do get the impression that you are mindlessly key spamming throughout the whole raid  instead of playing the class. The Quickbrand has no weapon swap and the Daredevil is generally underperforming. Also you have never participated mechanics such as VG green circle, spirit run shadow portal and sab cannons, which may be the cause of your boredom.

As for gliding in Xera, long press the spacebar instead of double press will prevent the gliding failure.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[Vidit.7108]

3 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

Frankly, I do get the impression that you are mindlessly key spamming throughout the whole raid  instead of playing the class. The Quickbrand has no weapon swap and the Daredevil is generally underperforming. Also you have never participated mechanics such as VG green circle, spirit run shadow portal and sab cannons, which may be the cause of your boredom.

I'm aware that wasn't a great a VG performance on my part. I grabbed my power DD because it was the first DPS on my home screen I saw, (usually i take my Specter) In order of most to least use in raids I play QB->HAM->HB-> Specter -> alac Specter. When you asked us to do greens after third phase I did go to them but was alone with one other dps and we both went down to it. There have only been 11 or 12 weeks since embolden began and I've only DPS'd wing 1 maybe twice and been a support every other time. It was overall a weird VG though.

[AlCapwnd.7834]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:20 AM, Raven.1524 said:

I came back to gw2 after a while.

Haven't really raided since HoT the first time raids came to the game.

I recently opened the lfg and noticed 2 things,

- The clear tab is only filled with raid sells

- The training tab is empty

I won't compare it to games like wow since I never played that because I always disliked how that game looks.

 

I did a bit a a research and started questioning if Is it normal to play a raid and everyone be expecting to either have some weird amount of LI, see a video and know all the mechanics before even starting the fight or join a training group and forced to be on discord.

 

Since the situation seems to be like this, I personally won't raid unless I get a group of friends to start playing this game with me,

But I really started questioning if it was really designed to be this weird to start getting into raids or is it like this for every other mmo raiding scene?

 

Honestly, If all raids are designed to be like this, maybe the simplest answer is that in regards to hard content, I should either only play games my friends play or play single player games with hard difficulty (I don't know, monster hunter after master rank 200+ event stuff?)

 

So what do you guys think it's the issue here?

- This is simply not my type of game mode on an mmo?

- It's designed to be started with a group of friends

- The learning curve or the way it's implemented on the system is wrong?

- Some other issue I'm not seeing

 

btw: I won't talk about selling raids. I just don't like that and simply ignore their existence instead of making drama about it.

I hate seeing all the "Cheapest Raid Clear". I dont know what kind of idiot would pay for something so easy to learn.

[Einsof.1457]

On 8/13/2022 at 11:39 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I'm a veteran of MMOs for over 20 years, and honestly raids are just bad in this game.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I enjoy them, but they're extremely frustrating compared to other games. Its strange because they're alot easier in difficulty yet the game punishes you for playing them.

 

Its something called "artificial difficulty":

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

(You'd be surprised how many dozens of these tropes Guild Wars 2 checks off..)

 

In other MMOs raids are alot more difficult but not blocking mechanics like resurrection means that you can always clear them given enough time. You don't have to spend several hours typing /gg into chat every time a mistake is made only to walk away without a clear if your group isn't good enough (especially pugs).

 

The biggest problems compared too other games are:

- Favoring DPS builds, with frequent DPS checks. Even the healers run glassy builds, because no amount of defense does you any good, even the Protection boon is mostly worthless.

- Strangely enough, even active defenses are also mostly useless, like blind. Only some blocks and evades work, and only on some attacks. The best defense is simply to side step enemy skills,.

- Instant death mechanics, healers are of limited use as a result.

- Permanent death, so revival skills are of limited use, no resurrections, and mistakes often require intentional group wipes. This is okay in strikes, which are short, but in raids its stressful.

- No real tanking, as the boss still heavily damages non-tank players. Many raids don't even have tanks and just focus players based upon other criteria instead, making each raid its own learning process.

 

If you've played any other MMOs, this isn't how raids traditionally work. Almost every game gives the group the option of either being an extremely efficient DPS group or "tankin n' spankin', guaranteeing a clear as long as their coordination is good and how they approach it only determines how long it takes.

 

You may think this is a good thing, but its not. In Guild Wars 2 raids have the same problem as PvP, the devs can't make raids as hard as they possibly could be because there's no way for groups to recover from a snowballing situation. As a result, players can't be tested too much as the only outcome of a series of mistakes (sometimes just one mistake) is complete failure.

 

This is why raids in this game are significantly easier than in other games, yet also much more frustrating. You can't design content that intentionally encourages players to fail right out the door.

All the issues you describe are actually good things. If you want boring homgenized holy Trinity gameplay from 20 years ago, you know where to find it. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

26 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

All the issues you describe are actually good things. If you want boring homgenized holy Trinity crap from 20 years ago, you know where to find it. 

Okay, so here's the issue:

1. Veteran player: Why aren't raids popular, why aren't there more raids being made?

2. Other players: <List of reasons why raids aren't appealing or why grouping for them is frustrating>

3. Veteran player: But I don't want it to be different, I like raids how they are, just for me!!

4. Go to 1.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Einsof.1457]

1 minute ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Okay, so here's the issue:

1. Veteran player: Why aren't raids popular, why aren't there more raids being made?

2. Other players: <List of reasons why raids aren't appealing>

3. Veteran player: But I don't want it to be different, I like raids how they are, just for me!!

4. Go to 1.

Raids are popular. The communities aren't apparent unless you look. My guild alone has over 40 statics, most are beginner and training focused.

 

They may not be appealing for a bazillion reasons to some players. Doesn't mean anything. 

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

56 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Okay, so here's the issue:

1. Veteran player: Why aren't raids popular, why aren't there more raids being made?

2. Other players: <List of reasons why raids aren't appealing or why grouping for them is frustrating>

3. Veteran player: But I don't want it to be different, I like raids how they are, just for me!!

4. Go to 1.

Want it to improve != want it to be like this one other popular game you specifically played fifteen years ago that you associated with your youth and virility and want to go back to.

No. We do not want it to become a trinity tank-and-spank WoW-clone. Telling you this, for the umpteenth time, is not us wanting it to not improve or change in any conceivable way.

[Sobx.1758]

On 8/16/2022 at 12:14 PM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Lineage 2

L2 raid bosses were much closer to gw2's world bosses than gw2's raids. As far as I remember, the big part of it was also not related to killing the boss itself, but OW fights against other clans to get to kill those bosses in the first place. The gameplay pattern was also based much more on the typical trinity, where you had a tank, healer spamming on that tank and the rest of buffed up dps group with little-to-none additional, meaningful mechanics.

 

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Its something called "artificial difficulty":

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

(You'd be surprised how many dozens of these tropes Guild Wars 2 checks off..)

Well, don't leave me hanging then and just tell me your interpretation of what you've just linked in relation to what you're talking about here. Because if you have dozens of those here, then I'd be more surprised if you didn't make a pretty big stretch -or get pieces of the article out of full context- on most of it.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

In other MMOs raids are alot more difficult but not blocking mechanics like resurrection means that you can always clear them given enough time. You don't have to spend several hours typing /gg into chat every time a mistake is made only to walk away without a clear if your group isn't good enough (especially pugs).

The difficulty doesn't matter if it's forgiving to the point you can park a "designated rez character" and keep going no matter what because the group will just keep outsustaining and rezzing over and over again. This is not "artificial difficulty", this is just regular part of the difficulty. If you dislike it, it's not because it's somehow "fake", it's because failing actually has meaning there and isn't just "oh well, pick me up bois, doesn't matter what happens or what I fail! \o/ ".

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

The biggest problems compared too other games are:

- Favoring DPS builds, with frequent DPS checks. Even the healers run glassy builds, because no amount of defense does you any good, even the Protection boon is mostly worthless.

More dps just lets you kill bosses faster, that's equally true in majority -or rather all- of the other games. Whether some added defense is worthless or not depends mostly on the group since, you know, dead characters have 0 dps.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

- Strangely enough, even active defenses are also mostly useless, like blind. Only some blocks and evades work, and only on some attacks. The best defense is simply to side step enemy skills,.

Active defenses aren't useless. If blind was working as normal in a group scenario, characters could just spam it in turns and with that... uh, just why would you even want anything like that? Yes, dodging enemy skills is an active defense too. Sidestepping what you can is useful, since you're able to safe the dodge -and in the game like this I'd also count that as active defense, since you're reacting to opponenet's actions in order to mitigate their damage.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

- Instant death mechanics, healers are of limited use as a result.

So... have you played without a healer? No? Seems to me it's not that limited then. You started the post talking about the encounter difficulties, but instant death mechanics are bad, no rez is bad, healers have "limited use" despite them... not having limited use, they just mostly can't save you from absolutely EVERTHING. So what difficulty were you talking about? From my understanding you want to have the simplyfied version of boss fights, where you can outheal anything and if by any chance you're still defeated, people will just rez you while still outhealing anything. That's the opposite of difficulty and the opposite of meaningful mechanics/actions.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

- Permanent death, so revival skills are of limited use, no resurrections, and mistakes often require intentional group wipes. This is okay in strikes, which are short, but in raids its stressful.

Already commented on this directly above and near the top of the post about the "artificial difficulty". So... I don't think there's a point to copy those parts here.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

- No real tanking, as the boss still heavily damages non-tank players. Many raids don't even have tanks and just focus players based upon other criteria instead, making each raid its own learning process.

Having more distinguish encounters is a plus in my book. Again, what you want seems to be just a stable party of a tank that almost can't lose aggro, a healer that just holds a healing key -or 3 keys- on a tank and buffed dps players standing somehwere else spamming away at the boss mostly for free. All that while you can get rezzed and outhealed again whenever anything goes wrong.

On 8/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

If you've played any other MMOs, this isn't how raids traditionally work. Almost every game gives the group the option of either being an extremely efficient DPS group or "tankin n' spankin', guaranteeing a clear as long as their coordination is good and how they approach it only determines how long it takes.

"success no matter what, maybe it'll just take a little longer" is not what I see as an encounter having an actual difficulty.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[sokeenoppa.5384]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:02 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

The problem is simple, its 10man content that is long and tedious, and easy to fail at repeatedly. i was in a raid for over four hours the other night, and my only choice was to give up and leave and not get the rewards for the final boss, or stick it out and hope for the best.

Most raid/strike bosses are killed under 3 minutes, heck some of them dont even take full minutes.

 

 

 

Strike Missions don't have this problem nearly as bad, because they're much shorter, and even then players quickly grow tired of the longer Strike Missions and stop playing them except for the weekly.

EOD strikes are way longer than most raids.

 

As a general rule, 10man content in this game isn't worth doing because it takes a long time to form a group, the mechanics of that group like the builds players have to run are alot more complex, and raids are extremely unforgiving on pretty much every aspect which means newer players quit after the first few wipes.

Static group of 10 players that raids every week same time, proplem solved. You listed reasons why most raiders actually like raids.

 

 

In an MMO, there has to be an X chance of success for Y time and effort invested. If the investment is particularly steep, then this chance has to approach nearly 100% because when players just walk away with nothing after wasting their entire free time, it makes everything sour, which then spreads through the playerbase like a poison--"avoid doing this, its not worth it" and the content fizzles out.

 

You dont walk away with nothing, you walk away with fun time spent with friends and knowledge of the fight which in the future leads to easy kills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[firedragon.8953]

The reason raids look dead is because most raiders do not organize through lfg (at least on NA).
The reason most raiders don't organize through lfg is because most don't want to always run a training run, or deal with people causing wipes to mechanics. This drives raiders to discord communities like Raid Academy which makes organization easier. Additionally, most raiders raid with guilds because the idea of "teaching" someone how to raid is more attractive with the prospect that them getting better will help you clear the raid (or even teach other community members) in subsequent encounters because they will probably join you again if they are a guildie/community member and are not a random PUG.

That being said, when I raid with my guild I usually try to cover heal/boon/special roles and leave dps for PUG fills. When I list my group it literally fills in less than a minute. So, there are obviously raiders camping the lfg waiting for a real group to start forming. This leads to another persistent issue in GW2.

The GW2 community in general has adversity to self-initiative and will rarely go out of their way to start forming up a group. This probably is because people don't want to feel "responsible" for a group. When wearing a commander tag, people don't want the added pressure, and they will convince themselves that "they will do it when they are better or more confident," which 90% of people will never be because they never step up. I've seen the problem within guilds and communities as well, that even though people are capable they are allergic to stepping up and those who were running things eventually burn out and the community dies while the sheep flock to the next shepherd, and the cycle often continues ad infinitum. Anet should incentivize commanders in instanced 10-man group content (squad) by giving the person wearing the commander tag a "commander bonus" +100% magic find, +100% exp, and increasing their boss gold by 50% or something. This then makes the commander tag an "investment" for the one wearing it and not just feeling like a "liability" or sacrifice.

Most people probably open the raid lfg and just say, "oh, dead content" and click off of it. Most don't actually do anything about it, like make a group.

I'd wager one reason why fractals are more popular (besides being mechanically easier, easier to organize 5-man content, decently rewarding, and a pretty intuitive "ramp up system") is that there is no tag, meaning no one is actually "in charge" of the group. You can throw up an lfg and once 2-3 people join, no one really remembers (or cares) who's group it is.

Anyway, raiding can be fun. I recommend anyone interested check out this list of raiding communities and join one. Guild Wars 2 Group Finder | Snow Crows 

[Woof.8246]

1 hour ago, firedragon.8953 said:

The reason raids look dead is because most raiders do not organize through lfg (at least on NA).
The reason most raiders don't organize through lfg is because most don't want to always run a training run, or deal with people causing wipes to mechanics. This drives raiders to discord communities like Raid Academy which makes organization easier. Additionally, most raiders raid with guilds because the idea of "teaching" someone how to raid is more attractive with the prospect that them getting better will help you clear the raid (or even teach other community members) in subsequent encounters because they will probably join you again if they are a guildie/community member and are not a random PUG.

That being said, when I raid with my guild I usually try to cover heal/boon/special roles and leave dps for PUG fills. When I list my group it literally fills in less than a minute. So, there are obviously raiders camping the lfg waiting for a real group to start forming. This leads to another persistent issue in GW2.

The GW2 community in general has adversity to self-initiative and will rarely go out of their way to start forming up a group. This probably is because people don't want to feel "responsible" for a group. When wearing a commander tag, people don't want the added pressure, and they will convince themselves that "they will do it when they are better or more confident," which 90% of people will never be because they never step up. I've seen the problem within guilds and communities as well, that even though people are capable they are allergic to stepping up and those who were running things eventually burn out and the community dies while the sheep flock to the next shepherd, and the cycle often continues ad infinitum. Anet should incentivize commanders in instanced 10-man group content (squad) by giving the person wearing the commander tag a "commander bonus" +100% magic find, +100% exp, and increasing their boss gold by 50% or something. This then makes the commander tag an "investment" for the one wearing it and not just feeling like a "liability" or sacrifice.

Most people probably open the raid lfg and just say, "oh, dead content" and click off of it. Most don't actually do anything about it, like make a group.

I'd wager one reason why fractals are more popular (besides being mechanically easier, easier to organize 5-man content, decently rewarding, and a pretty intuitive "ramp up system") is that there is no tag, meaning no one is actually "in charge" of the group. You can throw up an lfg and once 2-3 people join, no one really remembers (or cares) who's group it is.

Anyway, raiding can be fun. I recommend anyone interested check out this list of raiding communities and join one. Guild Wars 2 Group Finder | Snow Crows 

Yeah i agree the problem , with people averting to step up to start a group .

How about an auto-lfg button , that try to match 5 random people and then place them into the LFG panel to find manually the rest of the 5  ?

Or ,what WoW does that has LFR (auto mode) + GW2 (manually search) to find more people to play with ?

Edit: Or allow instances to to have 12 people max , while the 8 can be teamed up by the auto-lfg , but those 8 are are enough to complete the instance ? While rest 4 will be there  to cover the boon/heals department if it is lacking

Edited September 13, 2022 by Woof.8246

[Sobx.1758]

56 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

Yeah i agree the problem , with people averting to step up to start a group .

How about an auto-lfg button , that try to match 5 random people and then place them into the LFG panel to find manually the rest of the 5  ?

Or ,what WoW does that has LFR (auto mode) + GW2 (manually search) to find more people to play with ?

Edit: Or allow instances to to have 12 people max , while the 8 can be teamed up by the auto-lfg , but those 8 are are enough to complete the instance ? While rest 4 will be there  to cover the boon/heals department if it is lacking

So just more freeloading ideas, this time with random people being awkwardly randomly bunched up with... a party of fewer people that "will cover stuff for them". How about this solution: if you want a group but don't see one, just make a group. If you need boon/heal covered, write it in the group's description.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[firedragon.8953]

43 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

Yeah i agree the problem , with people averting to step up to start a group .

How about an auto-lfg button , that try to match 5 random people and then place them into the LFG panel to find manually the rest of the 5  ?

Or ,what WoW does that has LFR (auto mode) + GW2 (manually search) to find more people to play with ?

Edit: Or allow instances to to have 12 people max , while the 8 can be teamed up by the auto-lfg , but those 8 are are enough to complete the instance ? While rest 4 will be there  to cover the boon/heals department if it is lacking

This essentially was already implemented with DRMs, and that was pretty unsuccessful. Even things like Public Dragonstorm can be pretty frustrating, which basically only is overcome by zerging... Since GW2 doesn't have roles fixed to professions it wouldn't really work, and the "half-measure" idea where you would still still need to manually search for members would unfortunately lead to the same issues currently. Even in a full group of 10 in raids with the current system, it's sometimes like pulling teeth to ask for volunteers to do mechanics like cannons or mushrooms, and we could literally sit there for 5 minutes with no one saying anything until the commander (me) basically has to "force" someone to do it.

The group finder should be improved, but I think an auto queue would just be pretty hard to implement. I guess it could be possible to create something where people can select a couple roles (up to 3) on their build templates (dps, quick, alac, heal, tank) that would then put them into an auto-sorting group finder, and make auto queue an option. This would still rely on the honor system, but it would streamline squad/group formation and I guess could lead to a full auto group finder. It would actually be nice if people's roles were symbolized with colored triangles (that can form a multicolored square if multiple roles are selected) in the lower right corner of their squad HP box, too (auto group finder or not) just to help keep roles clear.

But in the end, I really think the game needs to do a better job to incentivize people taking on commander roles in instanced content, using something like commander bonuses. Maybe even achievements for the number of times you successfully command raids and strikes, or certain wings/bosses, etc that unlock "commander skins" or something. People are afraid to take the step, but once they cross over, it really isn't that scary. Dangling a carrot may be the extra umph needed.

[Woof.8246]

1 hour ago, firedragon.8953 said:

This essentially was already implemented with DRMs, and that was pretty unsuccessful. Even things like Public Dragonstorm can be pretty frustrating, which basically only is overcome by zerging... Since GW2 doesn't have roles fixed to professions it wouldn't really work, and the "half-measure" idea where you would still still need to manually search for members would unfortunately lead to the same issues currently. Even in a full group of 10 in raids with the current system, it's sometimes like pulling teeth to ask for volunteers to do mechanics like cannons or mushrooms, and we could literally sit there for 5 minutes with no one saying anything until the commander (me) basically has to "force" someone to do it.

The group finder should be improved, but I think an auto queue would just be pretty hard to implement. I guess it could be possible to create something where people can select a couple roles (up to 3) on their build templates (dps, quick, alac, heal, tank) that would then put them into an auto-sorting group finder, and make auto queue an option. This would still rely on the honor system, but it would streamline squad/group formation and I guess could lead to a full auto group finder. It would actually be nice if people's roles were symbolized with colored triangles (that can form a multicolored square if multiple roles are selected) in the lower right corner of their squad HP box, too (auto group finder or not) just to help keep roles clear.

But in the end, I really think the game needs to do a better job to incentivize people taking on commander roles in instanced content, using something like commander bonuses. Maybe even achievements for the number of times you successfully command raids and strikes, or certain wings/bosses, etc that unlock "commander skins" or something. People are afraid to take the step, but once they cross over, it really isn't that scary. Dangling a carrot may be the extra umph needed.

The problem is that we don't need Commanders , to teach people the tactics , but we need someone to take the courage to "create" the group . Just allowing people who have bought Tags , to create money out of thin air , it will be bad  for the game economy . Or people will exploit it , by doing the fastest Raids/Strikes and not in the official lfg . Why bother trying teach casual people for 2 hours , when you can play 30 min with the Discord Raiding LFG.

That why a 5-man aut0-group and 5-man manual fill will do the trick .

Or even better the 8-man-aut0-group can complete any instance , and if they want to speed things up (missing quickness) then can manually inv 1-4 more people from the lfg

Edited September 13, 2022 by Woof.8246

[firedragon.8953]

29 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

The problem is that we don't need Commanders , to teach people the tactics , but we need someone to take the courage to "create" the group .

Yep.
 

29 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

Just allowing people who have bought Tags , to create money out of thin air

Nope. It isn't creating money out of thin air. It is encouraging people to "create groups." This was never about running trainings. Commanders put in a bit more extra work than the random silent PUG, even if it is merely composing the squad, so let there be incentive to do it. Even in discord communities, I'd rather see more people take initiative to post their own groups, the the majority wait there too, fyi.

For your other comments, I think we may just have to "agree to disagree." I already explained why this wouldn't work.

[sokeenoppa.5384]

52 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

 

That why a 5-man aut0-group and 5-man manual fill will do the trick .

Or even better the 8-man-aut0-group can complete any instance , and if they want to speed things up (missing quickness) then can manually inv 1-4 more people from the lfg

And what happens when this 8 man autofill gives you 8 "dps" players in soldier gear? Now you have random tank, no quickness, alacrity, other boons or healing.

 

Sure you can now use the manual invite thingy to gain some/ Even all of the lacking boons but even then the squad dps is not enough to clear most of the encounters. 

What about Raid wings that require ppl to swap around with roles? Like w6,4,5,7 for final boss few players have to swap into more specific roles which cannot be done with every class 

[Woof.8246]

39 minutes ago, sokeenoppa.5384 said:

And what happens when this 8 man autofill gives you 8 "dps" players in soldier gear? Now you have random tank, no quickness, alacrity, other boons or healing.

 

Sure you can now use the manual invite thingy to gain some/ Even all of the lacking boons but even then the squad dps is not enough to clear most of the encounters. 

What about Raid wings that require ppl to swap around with roles? Like w6,4,5,7 for final boss few players have to swap into more specific roles which cannot be done with every class 

For new Strikes + Raid the timer is kinda an illusion . You can complete the instance without worrying about it . 

And if they have Solders , that means that they are not going in downstate very easily and they can scoff off the increased damage taken by the enraged boss .

Edit: Also Raids have the "Empowered" Mechanic for increased damage + Survibility  .

Edit2: In the worst case scenario , they can create a "double sword" "Empowered" Mechanic . Where it reduces your Toughness +Hp , but gives you increased damage without the HP increase ,  replacing the old one from  Raids

 

We could implant it in Wing 1-4 + Strikes for now and when the population get better , implanted it in 5-7 Wing

Edited September 13, 2022 by Woof.8246

[sokeenoppa.5384]

42 minutes ago, Woof.8246 said:

For new Strikes + Raid the timer is kinda an illusion . You can complete the instance without worrying about it . 

And if they have Solders , that means that they are not going in downstate very easily and they can scoff off the increased damage taken by the enraged boss .

Edit: Also Raids have the "Empowered" Mechanic for increased damage + Survibility  .

Edit2: In the worst case scenario , they can create a "double sword" "Empowered" Mechanic . Where it reduces your Toughness +Hp , but gives you increased damage without the HP increase ,  replacing the old one from  Raids

 

We could implant it in Wing 1-4 + Strikes for now and when the population get better , implanted it in 5-7 Wing

How about mechanics where commander usually Ask ppl to volunteer such as sabetha cannons, and sloth shrooms? If no1 volunteer you could normally kick ppl.

What about class specific mechanics such as reflects, condition damage requirement, boon strip, aegis on demand etc? Not all classes can cover these things?

 

Personally it doesn't bother me If we would get system like this, im just worried it Simply doesn't work or ppl would still prefer the normal lfg over it, which happened with the public strike instance thingy already.

 

My guess is that once you exclude all the player that are already doing strikes/raids, there isnt enough players for this. 

Edit: when it comes to timer and Illusion, this is true for some fights but not for umm... Gorseval, sabetha, slothasor, KC, Xera, MO and deimos from top of my head. Those once are nasty when enraged with or without soldier gear 

Edited September 13, 2022 by sokeenoppa.5384