Are Mounts Necessary?

[Veprovina.4876]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@jia li ng.8415 said:Well, as the numbers of players drop from Path of Fire, change will come, as for those who insist on playing in the kiddie sandbox with their new toys, go for it.

Thanks. I will.

You know.... maybe a thread asking for a scale down of mount attacks or asking to remove the daily map events in low level maps from accounts with one level 80 would be better than attacking those who like to play as the game is designed.

This. There's nothing wrong with going to starter areas as a lvl 80. I dod it when i was doing map completion. It's normal.

I just think the mount engage skill needs a scale like the characters have and the rest should stay as it is.

I mean, it's not hard to kill mobs in the starter areas even when starting out.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

The OP is, imo, talking about a problem but he’s identified the wrong cause and wrong solution. Its not the mounts that’s the problem in low level maps. It’s that level 80s are so strong even when scaled down. Removing mounts won’t change anything. Level 80s can still outrun low levels on foot and demolish low level mobs before a low level char can get a hit with their extra skills, traits and stats

imo if accounts with at least one level 80 no longer had the login daily events on low level maps but instead only get login daily events on maps higher than level 25 then that would solve most of the problems he’s seeing, it’s the zergs of level 80s killing on daily event days in low level maps that overwhelm low level players. The occasional high level on foot or on a mount on a low level map isn’t an issue. It’s when there’s large numbers that low levels have trouble getting a tag or getting to events in time.

[ancientoak.4258]

I myself only use them for movement in the beginner maps. Can understand its very annoying for new players to get the mobs in front of them tailswiped by trolling players with the raptor mount.

[voltaicbore.8012]

OP has been consistently, most likely intentionally, misinterpreting people wanting to retain mounts in 1-15 zones as a "desperate" desire of some sort. It's bad logic and even worse manners.

Of course nobody ever required in the past (or presently needs) mounts to get around, make fast kills, or tag events. We'd get along fine if they were taken away. That being said, they're great for a whole range of game experience outside the extremely narrow (dare I suggest, essentially nonexistent?) use of greedily swallowing entire events before new f2p players can get to them. I do not think the benefit new/f2p players would get from mount-free maps would come anywhere close to the loss of enjoyment experienced by mounted players.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@"Teofa Tsavo.9863" said:Mounts will never be curtailed because they provide the thing that modern MMO players obsess about over all things... speed and time. If they progress as other games, they will become faster and faster. There will be calls to be able to do things mounted like harvesting, vistas, vendors, npc dialog, because of the "time" taken to dismount. Eventually there will be requests for combat and looting while mounted, cause "time".I like mounts, but I'm not in a compulsive hurry and don't bother for a lot of the game. The vast majority are in a frantic hurry. Pandora's Box has been opened, and will not be shut.

Unless this is September 23rd... what?There HAS been calls/suggestions/ideas coming up to stop us from dismounting.Then Arenanet said they did that because of some bug or whatever, and then a few days after that talk... or few hours... there's talks about allow us to stop being dismounted by everything.Not as much, but there has been people wanting to battle on mounts (I was one of them but I was more thinking of a minigame kind of situation where you get attacks to use while on mount and not actually battle itself in the open world with it.

[rikilamaru.5842]

personally i tried to level a new char today and every single dam time a dam shit head on a mount wipe the area including event before anyone else was able to land hits in to get credits. I personally believe mounts should be locked into hot and pof only areas.

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:

@"Teofa Tsavo.9863" said:Mounts will never be curtailed because they provide the thing that modern MMO players obsess about over all things... speed and time. If they progress as other games, they will become faster and faster.

There will be calls to be able to do things mounted like harvesting, vistas, vendors, npc dialog, because of the "time" taken to dismount. Eventually there will be requests for combat and looting while mounted, cause "time".

I like mounts, but I'm not in a compulsive hurry and don't bother for a lot of the game. The vast majority are in a frantic hurry. Pandora's Box has been opened, and will not be shut.

Unless this is September 23rd... what?There HAS been calls/suggestions/ideas coming up to stop us from dismounting.Then Arenanet said they did that because of some bug or whatever, and then a few days after that talk... or few hours... there's talks about allow us to stop being dismounted by everything.Not as much, but there has been people wanting to battle on mounts (I was one of them but I was more thinking of a minigame kind of situation where you get attacks to use while on mount and not actually battle itself in the open world with it.

Old Forum. I don't cross reference that, nor was I aware of the thread. It appears I am correct, however.

[Veprovina.4876]

@rikilamaru.5842 said:personally i tried to level a new char today and every single dam time a dam kitten head on a mount wipe the area including event before anyone else was able to land hits in to get credits. I personally believe mounts should be locked into hot and pof only areas.

I had the exact opposite experience and i leveled a character to lvl 20 for the start. :confused: I just wasn't seeing anyone with a mount wipe the events before i could get to them. I was always there to at least get bronze and if i missed the event, there is always another poi, vista, heart, event somewhere close by.

I find it hard to believe your every effort to do anything resulted in players wiping every mob with a mount and that you couldn't progress your leveling.

[starlinvf.1358]

@"jia li ng.8415" said:I gave up on expecting player etiquette a few years ago, though when I receive common courtesy it is always greatly appreciated. This whine about how badly a player needs a mount in newbie zones, I wonder how the heck did you get by without them for the past three and a half years (serving cheese now)? It is not absolutely necessary at all. As previously stated, any map can be run without a mount, map completion with a mount speeds things up considerably but using a mount in 1-15 zones is ludicrous, often misused or abused.

To be fair, your argument is childish. You are in no way disadvantaged given how ridiculously easy the content in those areas are, and any perceived gap is the result of a quirk in the scaling and new player lack of experience. Sidekicking is already overly aggressive when it comes to scaling down player stats, but it has a couple of blind spots because it can't account for the number of traits and skills high level players have access to. If they wanted to go further, they can scale the coefficients directly to "collectively" bring down the multiplicative effect they produce. However, this still doesn't impact the fact that lvl 80 players simply have access to more "stuff", more tools, and with both HOT and POF, tons and tons and tons of Boons. If there was any significant difference between low and high levels, its boon access.

So to restate the obvious.... low level players are NOT disadvantaged. The content is tuned to provide them an appropriate challenge. A power gap with high level exists, but the only problem is that hasn't been looked at since "Leveling Experience Update" to account for higher force multiplication of the Especs.

Now on the other side of the fence, why is there an expectation that low levels should be steam rolling a level appropriate area? I remember in 2014, after the game had been out for a while, that there being a big complaint about how the low and mid level areas were not preparing people for the difficulty spike of 60+ zones, and after level 80, there being "No Challenge" anywhere in the game. There is only one band of content from 60-75 where people had any significant challenge from the game.The only other consistent complaint I've ever seen on the subject is new players not knowing how to solve a problem, mechanically..... mostly because other games have trained them to stand there and spam skills as the solution to everything. I will only concede that experienced player tend to move extremely fast, making it hard for new players to see what it is their doing so they can emulate.

Thus far, I've only been given the impression that you feel Egos are being bruised by the fact that a higher level player is doing better at the game then a low level player. And their lack of struggle is an insult to the new player. Now the defense of mounts and gliders in Tyria as a necessity is a stupid argument..... but thats just people responding to you creating the equally stupid argument of mounts being the source of the problem. Citing etiquette as a issue is also stupid, as its not going to solve the problem either. You just end up with "a hand few of people" still causing the problem instead of "anyone of high level who just happens to be there".

See... years ago, new players were in awe of the efficiency of a higher level player in a low level zone. Not envy at the power gap, but the realization of that power being within their reach. Something worthwhile to inspire them, and having the ability to fight along side someone that can be perceived as a Hero of land. Thats something no other game I know of had ever managed to accomplish with other players. And if a new player was struggle with something, a veteran player can ease the pressure and/or show them what they're missing. Which is why it comes off as petty that now seeing a player doing better then yourself is a game breaking issue, or a personal insult. Yes it could stand to use some re-tuning..... buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuutt......

http://cedricjacomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Attitude-about-the-problem.jpg

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@rikilamaru.5842 said:personally i tried to level a new char today and every single dam time a dam kitten head on a mount wipe the area including event before anyone else was able to land hits in to get credits. I personally believe mounts should be locked into hot and pof only areas.

Did you ask them nicely to stop doing it? If you did and they refused, then I do feel sorry for you, but I don't think stopping mounts in those zones because a few bad apples are being inconsiderate is a justifiable enough reason. Does it stink at times? Sure. What the OP and you are proposing is basically not allowing any cars in a school zone just because on the off chance some person will speed through and hit a kid. That's ridiculous because you can't control every person, but punishing the majority because a few are not playing nice is not good cause for your proposal.

[Coulter.2315]

@"jia li ng.8415" said:Truth is I completely agree with everyone about mounts ...Very Useful, can't live without 'em, and good tool in the toolboxbut look at from another players perspective,

The F2P players have absolutely no voice here, they can't comment or strike up a tread (though they can read)I am attempting to be that silenced voice, I see an errant newbie playing and try to see things from their eyes.

I really can't believe that by the sacrifice of 5 lowly maps people are in such a tirade, with the expansion we got what?, oh yeah, 5 maps

5 much more challenging maps, but it seems that level 80 players need to play in the sandbox with the level 2 newbies

A comment made by a player in the Crystal Desert earlier this afternoon, " have you noticed Path of Fire has become a ghost town?" ... Ironic

How many F2P players have asked you to be their voice? What legitimacy have you got? Are you just claiming the right to speak for these people to add weight to your single voice? You don't get to appropriate the robes of a freedom fighter just cause you think they look good on you.

I would be happy for the to nerf/scale mount engages but I see no real reason to remove mounts entirely.

[jia li ng.8415]

I have talked with F2P players in Queensdale and Wayfarers Hills about their experiences. One player said they, "were having a great time enjoying Guild Wars, and that they even liked the mounts", but they wished that they could get to an event in time. I told them about optional characters, and skills to try once they get to level 11 (telling them that Thieves P/P or SB and that Guardians Sc/Sh only have a 900 range, and then showing them the differences in range). I take my mentoring seriously, I believe in helping new players understand the game, and really try to give them the best information my experience can offer. I can play like a rabid cur when I have to, but enriching another players knowledge more rewarding.

[Zionka.6897]

The attack skill on mounts has no use in 1-15 zones.. People love their mounts for mobility, not their attacks. I doubt many would fuss if the attack skill was not only nerfed, but disabled while in these zones. Really though, the issue has always been there with level 80s coming in and dominating events before the little guys can get a hit in. The finger is just being pointed in another direction now is all.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:The OP is, imo, talking about a problem but he’s identified the wrong cause and wrong solution. Its not the mounts that’s the problem in low level maps. It’s that level 80s are so strong even when scaled down. Removing mounts won’t change anything. Level 80s can still outrun low levels on foot and demolish low level mobs before a low level char can get a hit with their extra skills, traits and statsWell said.

There's a lot of people in this thread supporting the idea of reduced damage from mounts in lowbie zones, even eliminating the knockdown (again, in lowbie zones). That would resolve all of the mount-related problems the OP tried to describe. There might or might not be an additional issue that's existed since 2012: L80s are significantly more powerful than at-level toons in those same zones (but the OP isn't asking for that to be changed).

[Deadvillager.1956]

If the damage of the mount skills is the issue why not have it scaled to the lowest level of the area? Making starting areas mount free might be a solution but it also takes away from a veterans playing experience in there.

[Galaa.8475]

Dont force the ones that are ok with using mounts on low areas to not be able to use them. Their are 1000's who like it. Like what, ten or twenty of you that want it stopped. If you dont want to use them in those areas; dont. you dont like whats on t.v. , change the channel. get it? Leave shit alone man. play your game and we get to play ours.

[Dashiva.6149]

I do feel occasionally that the dismount ability is slighty too strong for my taste in lower level zones and could be turned down a notch. If it is a issue with scaling that is something that we have to turn to the devs and anet to adress.

As for is it necessary, it is all about context. Gliding wasn't necessary for Core for me, but it is nice to have. Mounts weren't necessary for Core or HoT for me, but it is nice to have. I have a friend who is not very good when it comes to anything that involves jumping and to her the mounts became necessary when she went back to collect vistas, poi and other hard-to-reach things that was neglected in the past.

I am personally very happy that we get to use our mount everywhere because it has reinvigorated the exploration and travel in older zones. It is much more fun and enjoyable now to take the long way and/or the road less traveled rather than teleport constantly.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

“I can already hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth.”“kiddies sandbox”“makes you squirm and start convulsing, feeling that sudden urge to froth from the mouth and scream, cool”

Comments like this don’t help your case. No one likes for their objections to be dismissed so rudely. When I read remarks of this type I automatically deduct logic points because a person who writes like this is trying to stir up negative emotions. He can’t make a logical argument for what he wants so he goes for the emotions..

As to why I like mounts/gliding in low level zones. Well, for one thing I have low level chars and mounts/gliding helps make map completion and leveling for the Nth time more interesting. If I am on a level 80 I’m not going around killing mobs that some hapless low level is trying to tag so why should mounts/gliding be removed because you imagine some sort of problem that doesn’t exist and because you are failing to understand the real problem, which is scaling for level 80s in low level zones, not mounts.

[jia li ng.8415]

I knew I could evoke a response using sarcasm and candor in defense of the "want" of using mounts and gliders.There is no "need" in level 1-15 zones to use mounts or gliders.Oh, the convenience of speed in order to complete a map.

How did we ever survive the drudgery of map completion? Seriously, how was it done in the past? Would it spoil your experience of a newly created character to have to complete all 5 level 1-15 zones without a mount? I know you can do it, you did it before ... I know that it might be an adjustment that some players would freak out about, but how about when we used to have a daily 5 with 30 choices to pick from and now we have a daily 3 with 12 choices. There was some freaking out about that as well, we all got over it and played on. Many changes have happened and many more are likely to come. Some will be recieved as great and others will be limiting.

Get over the want ... tell me the absolute need for gliders or mounts in 1-15 zones.Selfish reasoning is not a good basis for your argument. If has nothing to do with new players experiencing the game firsthand as we did then explain the true need of how these level 1-15 zones simply couldn't be played now without gliders or mounts.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

You still haven’t proven your case that mounts are a problem. Other people are seeing it. Until you prove it your argument is invalid and your suggestions to fix this non problem isn’t worth the forum paper it’s written on.

[jia li ng.8415]

And you have said nothing of "need" and therefore your comment is does nothing to address the fact that in 1-15 zones you would not be able to complete the map without your glider or mount as the crutch it has become.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@"jia li ng.8415" said:So the big complaint I'm hearing is that in 5 zones (1-15 level newbie areas) certain players desperately need to have their mounts in order to do something they should have already completed. Without being able to use their mounts in these zones they'll flounder? They'll be unable to cope, and for these blessed few we have the bow down to their whimpering. Get over yourselves, think of something more than yourself and how you'll be effected. I am looking at this as something larger, as something beyond my needs. I have admitted I have been guilty of abusing gameplay for others, disregarding its overall effect on our community of gamers, but have become aware that even though I can change myself and how I play (i.e. respecting the needs of those around me and not being selfish) other individuals show no such awareness. An example would be pulling back to auto-attack as opposed to powering up my utilities and elite when involved in a daily (all it takes is one hit and voila) when lesser players are in the group. Sure it's fun to fly in Queensdale, but is it a need? Aren't there many more maps to choose from than these 5, or are you so limited in your imagination?

OP, all the admiration for your crusade. Unfortunately, you have small chances to change anything. Because, although many of your contestants admitted during this debate that the mounts are not needed in the low level maps (I think they are not needed and nocive in all the core zones), they keep saying that using the mounts (to skip some areas, to wipe tons of mobs in one shot - the same mobs they states it gives you nothing - to dominate an environment designed for lvl 10 players etc) means fun. The thing your contestants forget is that having fun by depriving the others by their own fun is an offense (one example - by completing an event even before the other low level characters being able to arrive). In most civilized countries this offense is punished by laws. But, from their reaction I can guess that only one of the two statements can be true:

• They live in a country different of what I understand by "most civilized countries". OR
• They think that being in a game you can do everything you want because you will be not punished for this.

So, OP, this is why I said I admire your efforts but you have small chances to change something. Because you have to educate the players to behave like responsible humans. This is impossible without laws stating clear punishments :# . And many times, the persons you try to educate may become aggressive.

What is surprising me is that ANet seems to not realize the effect of the mounts in the game. The desperate maneuver with the RNG mount box shows that they felt something changed. By they try to correct this using the (holly, what a bannable wording I was close to use!!) mount owners :# . ANet knows that they (the mount owners) lack the power to see too far.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@"jia li ng.8415" said:And you have said nothing of "need" and therefore your comment is does nothing to address the fact that in 1-15 zones you would not be able to complete the map without your glider or mount as the crutch it has become.

I’ve completed maps in the level 1-15 zones on my alt account, no gliding or mounts. I’ve had no problems at all with other player’s mounts. The problem as defined by you doesn’t exist and your solution to this “problem” is unnecessary as there is no mount problem to be fixed.

[jia li ng.8415]

Nostalgia zones would be a fond remembrance to our gaming communities humble beginnings. Where everyone was equal with a rare visitation from a few level 80's.

If you can tell me how it has become absolutely inconceivable to enter a zone without the use of a mount or glider, how completely unimaginable it would be to go back to a simpler style of playing, on equal terms as those who are still arriving to Guild Wars 2, tell me.I don't need to read about your wants.

After just witnessing a Charr Guardian on a Raptor rinse and repeat Mona's escort to Claypool it was great fun for him, I was just there watching, the 3 other players scattered after crossing the bridge, they literally gave up as the Charr mopped up all the Tamini, yeah let's take the fun out of doing an event as a group.Looking back on it I could have said something.

[Arzurag.7506]

Reading some of these comments makes me thinking that the starter-areas are the true endgame or that they´re challenging.^^

As a dev I would just add a proper damage-scaling to the damaging mount-abilities and the job is done.