Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[apharma.3741]

5 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

If we put all 9*3 => 27 specializations out there excluding core (which is inherited weaker anyway), Mirage might not be at the bottom in WvW roaming, because it's a Mesmer after all, and Mesmer is the better roaming class to begin with, even when it's weaker than Thief. From that perspective, of course it won't be the worst, but still certainly not dominating, and if we only compare with roaming classes, Mirage is still below average I would say. This is also excluding the idea of one trick meme pony that can kill unexperienced players easily, which can easily happen on Mesmer, and can't easily go further than that.

All that being said, I don't even care if Mirage is stronger or weaker comparing to other roaming classes. Having only one dodge in 2/3 of the game modes, is inherited broken in my book. Make this consistent first, and we can talk about how to make it more balanced. Not sure why this is hard to understand for some people. Maybe they don't play PvE, or don't play competitive modes, or just don't care enough because they don't play Mesmer often enough to feel the inconsistency, or simply don't care being treated in an unfair way. I do see some people only care about being strong or weak, and don't really care about designs at all. In that case, I am afraid we'll just have to talk past each others :shrug:

I tried to broaden my horizons and played the builds from guildjen that others keep telling me about and it told me nothing I did not already know. Inspiration and blurred inscriptions is really strong and when paired with mirage and desert distortion and sword you can effectively escape many situations. I would actually say the power build is better than the condition build for roaming purely because escape is better than in combat ability with low chase or escape outside of blink due to other roamers having high mobility now. I've seen (and done) virtuosos dive head first into 20 people then simply walk out back to the safety of their group or objective without taking damage and being either invuln or channelled block the whole time. That isn't healthy for the game.

However I also am trying out the willbender builds, had some fun on burn guard reflecting projectiles and downing dumb people, I'm currently using holo a bit more, cele catalyst I already knew about and was playing at EoD launch and I knew it was broken from reveal. Also tried P/P immortal thief, different cele and condi druids, cele harbinger, power reaper, DE, Dragonhunter....I think pretty much most of the strong roamers right now even ones not mentioned.

What I can say is that given my mixed experience on the other classes they were a lot easier to be effective and when mastered are more of a threat than any mesmer build that isn't a stealth one shot. They also tend to be more capable and be able to switch it up for groups easily which mesmer doesn't really achieve as well. Is mesmer bad? No, it is not. Is it performing as well as Alcatraznc is portraying? No, I do disagree with that and I do not see mesmers as often as willbenders, harbingers, thieves, engineers, catalysts or #1 rangers for roaming

Edited February 3, 2023 by apharma.3741
Paragraphing.

[Veprovina.4876]

28 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I've seen (and done) virtuosos dive head first into 20 people then simply walk out back to the safety of their group or objective without taking damage and being either invuln or channelled block the whole time. That isn't healthy for the game.

But catalysts doing exactly the same is? If you're going to riff on mesmers for doing something, at least be fair and mention that virtuoso is not the only one capable of doing exactly that.

I do agree that giving Distortion to Virtuoso was an odd choice, but it doesn't magically make it any more "unhealthy" than the rest of the classes that can do exactly the same thing, only better.

[apharma.3741]

46 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

But catalysts doing exactly the same is? If you're going to riff on mesmers for doing something, at least be fair and mention that virtuoso is not the only one capable of doing exactly that.

I do agree that giving Distortion to Virtuoso was an odd choice, but it doesn't magically make it any more "unhealthy" than the rest of the classes that can do exactly the same thing, only better.

I have seen many catalysts try that but most end up dead and end up using vapour form to get back to safety. Catalyst is also more reliant on blocks in most builds which can be messed up in many ways while mesmer uses more invuln. You can technically use focus and mistform for some longer invuln durations but it's still not as much as double bladesong distortion, double bladesong return and blade renewal + 2 signets. I don't count the invuln on earth shield as it roots you.

I have also complained about catalysts, I'm making no friends with "ele mains", but this isn't a thread about eles.
What isn't healthy is the amount of distortion on mesmer in general and tying traits to distortion isn't good design either as it's tying beneficial effects to distortion incentivising mesmers to stack distortion which is unhealthy.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

10 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I have seen many catalysts try that but most end up dead and end up using vapour form to get back to safety. Catalyst is also more reliant on blocks in most builds which can be messed up in many ways while mesmer uses more invuln. You can technically use focus and mistform for some longer invuln durations but it's still not as much as double bladesong distortion, double bladesong return and blade renewal + 2 signets. I don't count the invuln on earth shield as it roots you.

I have also complained about catalysts, I'm making no friends with "ele mains", but this isn't a thread about eles.
What isn't healthy is the amount of distortion on mesmer in general and tying traits to distortion isn't good design either as it's tying beneficial effects to distortion incentivising mesmers to stack distortion which is unhealthy.

Is there any class in this game that you think is healthy in any way? I just want to know what you're comparing too and where this healthy game image stems from? What's healthy in apharma's eyes? I already know that you think mesmer is unhealthy bc of this, that and those. 

[Veprovina.4876]

4 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I have seen many catalysts try that but most end up dead and end up using vapour form to get back to safety. Catalyst is also more reliant on blocks in most builds which can be messed up in many ways while mesmer uses more invuln. You can technically use focus and mistform for some longer invuln durations but it's still not as much as double bladesong distortion, double bladesong return and blade renewal + 2 signets. I don't count the invuln on earth shield as it roots you.

I have also complained about catalysts, I'm making no friends with "ele mains", but this isn't a thread about eles.
What isn't healthy is the amount of distortion on mesmer in general and tying traits to distortion isn't good design either as it's tying beneficial effects to distortion incentivising mesmers to stack distortion which is unhealthy.

Oh give me a break, isn't healthy, says who? Who's the authority that tells everyone, distortion on virtuoso isn't healthy, you?

People who are in charge of the balance gave virtuoso distortion, they thought it's ok...

And honestly, if you remove that one trick pony that virtuoso can now do, it would be trash. 

So what if virtuoso can walk mid blob for a few seconds, and get out, they still have to spend all their blades to do that, AND trait, plus slot specific utility to do that "well" meaning - you're out of your profession mechanic, can't attack with it, you can literally come in, spam a few autoattacks, maybe some other attacks which will get healed through instantly, then get out unharmed...

 

WOW, so gamebreaking and unhealthy!

 

Meanwhile - no, this isn't ele forums, but if you're going to claim something is unhealthy, you need to mention every instance of it otherwise you're just disingenuous, and you're potraying one thing on mesmer as a problem while ignoring it on others - making it seem problematic when in truth, it's not - you're just portraying it falsely by isolating it in a vacuum. 

 

Of course when you say "clickbaity" things like "OMG VIRT IS PROBLEMATIC, CAN GO IN AND OUT OF ENEMY BLOB UNHARMED" it's going to sound like a problem, but if you put it in context that - catalysts can do it too, thieves with permastealth have been doing it for years - it's not so black and white anymore. Why are they allowed to do it, and virtuoso isn't? Because this isn't ele or thief forums? You're painting a fake picture here.

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Is there any class in this game that you think is healthy in any way? I just want to know what you're comparing too and where this healthy game image stems from? What's healthy in apharma's eyes? I already know that you think mesmer is unhealthy bc of this, that and those. 

Where did I call the entire class unhealthy? I'm specifically saying that diving into 20+ people and being invuln or blocking for 16s+ is unhealthy. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, I think some traits or some abilities are unhealthy not the entire class.
Are you telling me you honestly think chaining invulns for 10s or having 10s total invuln with another 6s of blocks is healthy? Not counting blocks on weapon skills or aegis btw and we're not considering how long it takes to recharge these.
If Virtuoso keeps that level of damage mitigation you can bet it will either never see an offensive buff or if it does you'll see hard nerfs very quickly and they will be harsher nerfs than the buffs. This is the bias of the devs and the playerbase, they won't ask for a pound of flesh, they'll take the whole arm.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

12 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Where did I call the entire class unhealthy? I'm specifically saying that diving into 20+ people and being invuln or blocking for 16s+ is unhealthy. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, I think some traits or some abilities are unhealthy not the entire class.
Are you telling me you honestly think chaining invulns for 10s or having 10s total invuln with another 6s of blocks is healthy? Not counting blocks on weapon skills or aegis btw and we're not considering how long it takes to recharge these.
If Virtuoso keeps that level of damage mitigation you can bet it will either never see an offensive buff or if it does you'll see hard nerfs very quickly and they will be harsher nerfs than the buffs. This is the bias of the devs and the playerbase, they won't ask for a pound of flesh, they'll take the whole arm.

What? I just asked you what is healthy in your eyes, if you're comparing too a class in this game that you think is healthy? Yeah! I said that you already think mesmer is unhealthy because of this, that, those! BUT I never said that you think that the whole class is unhealthy...talk about defensive for nothing 🤷‍♂️

[Veprovina.4876]

18 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Are you telling me you honestly think chaining invulns for 10s or having 10s total invuln with another 6s of blocks is healthy?

I don't think Virtuoso needed distoriton, but i also think that - if others can do it - why shouldn't Virtuoso? What's so bad about that? Permastealth thives have been doing it for years, it's still in the game. Why not let us have some fun with it too? Especially since you can't do anything else while doing that. 

So what's so unhealthy about it? Who decides that, you? What does unhealthy even mean? You're blurting out buzzwords like they mean something in order to make your opinion look like an argument while spinning the entire thing out of proportion cause you personally don't like it. 

Unhealthy doesn't mean anything. If catalysts can do it, thieves have been doing it for years, and not Virtuosos can troll squads a bit - i think that's a good thing. It would be bad if one single Virtuoso can down entire squads while being invulnerable, but that's not the case, the most they can do is go in, go out and do literally nothing. 

18 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

If Virtuoso keeps that level of damage mitigation you can bet it will either never see an offensive buff or if it does you'll see hard nerfs very quickly and they will be harsher nerfs than the buffs.

Maybe that's not the direction they will go with Virtuoso, maybe Mirage will be the next damage dealer - god knows we can use one. Maybe virt will be the new thief spec and chaos maker? Just because you don't like something doesn't quantifiably make it bad, unhealthy or whatever other buzzword of the day is being used. 

 

What's quantifiably bad and if you will "unhealthy" is Mirage being the only one left with major tradeoff and split functionality of the CORE MECHANIC. What this thread is about first, and everything else second. Why don't you go back to that for a bit?

 

18 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

This is the bias of the devs and the playerbase, they won't ask for a pound of flesh, they'll take the whole arm.

Yes, and you telling false overblown clickbait hot takes on something that is not a problem in the bigger picture and presenting it as this big problematic thing - isn't going to help things either is it? Cause if they listen to you - and remove distortion from VIrt, and take a whole arm as you said, VIrt will suddenly become trash because the base mechanic it operates on is so easily countered it's not even funny. 

And just because it can survive a squad while specifically traited and geared and utility slotted for that very purpose (meaning meme build for people who still didn't get what i'm talking about), while catalysts and thieves can do that as well - doesn't mean it's suddenly problematic.

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[apharma.3741]

2 minutes ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

What? I just asked you what is healthy in your eyes, if you're comparing too a class in this game that you think is healthy? Yeah! I said that you already think mesmer is unhealthy because of this, that, those! BUT I never said that you think that the whole class is unhealthy...talk about defensive for nothing 🤷‍♂️

You started talking about entire classes I think are healthy, that's where it started, put it down to misreading each other. I don't think the entire class of mesmer is unhealthy, I think the entire class (as a whole) is a complete mess after the years of nerfs and reworks that have left it all over the place with some very unhealthy mechanics which prevent mesmer in general getting buffs it really needs.

I think Xenesis put it best on page 9 "Personally I think the trait lines are a giant mess with clones, shatters, phantasmals, interrupt, support, all over the place, did we really need two separate traits for staff in the same tier?"
Do you think the invuln and block uptime on Virtuoso is healthy though?

[Veprovina.4876]

Let's just all focus on what needs to be done first - getting 2 dodges back without nerfing yet another thing in the process.

The we can examine what's what and how things interact.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

I just wanted to know if you find any class/eSpec being healthy in game as we speak, its good for reference, and for me to understand where you're coming from aswell. But ok, I take that we misread eachother, that happens and we're only human. 

I totally agree with you with our class being a mess traitwise, skillwise after years of nerfs coming our way. I agree with you with our traits being spread all over trait lines, making it so difficult for us to actually create builds, to experiment and to ultimatley have fun with our mesmer toons. I absolutly dont think its ok that we have two staff traits in the same section in chaos line.

Virtuoso for me personally isnt healthy when it got distortion. I'd never give Virt that to begin with if I was a balance dev. But Virtuoso has so many disadvantages aldready because how anet created it in the first place, the eSpec really needs a rework. But giving Virt distortion was a cheap easy fix from Anets side, just as cheap as when they took away Mirages one dodge. This has become an bad habit from Anet on how they treat Mesmers as a whole to always come with cheap easy fixes (doesnt matter if they nerfs us like in Mirages case, or buffs us like in Virtuosos case). We need better balancing of mesmers, and one way to do that is to actually be vocal and complain. Staying silent doesnt help, it just makes everything worse!

 

[Varis.5467]

1 minute ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Virtuoso for me personally isnt healthy when it got distortion. I'd never give Virt that to begin with if I was a balance dev. But Virtuoso has so many disadvantages aldready because how anet created it in the first place, the eSpec really needs a rework. But giving Virt distortion was a cheap easy fix from Anets side, just as cheap as when they took away Mirages one dodge. This has become an bad habit from Anet on how they treat Mesmers as a whole to always come with cheap easy fixes (doesnt matter if they nerfs us like in Mirages case, or buffs us like in Virtuosos case). We need better balancing of mesmers, and one way to do that is to actually be vocal and complain. Staying silent doesnt help, it just makes everything worse!

 

Virtuoso feels like a re-skin of the meme bear bow ranger from vanilla GW2, minus anything good about ranger and with extra bubble wrap around it. Aka boring. 

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid being rude to other players.

Regards.

[Veprovina.4876]

12 minutes ago, Varis.5467 said:

Virtuoso feels like a re-skin of the meme bear bow ranger from vanilla GW2, minus anything good about ranger and with extra bubble wrap around it. Aka boring. 

I said in my review when Virtuoso came out - they didn't go all the way.

I don't mind the blade mechanic and cloneless spec, but they needed to get rid of phantasms too and make Virtuoso itself do those moves (then stock a blade after). With adjusted power coefficients to compensate for the fact that you are doing those moves, not a phantasm while you also attack in the meantime.

 

Then suddenly you have a greatsword spinny attack (perferably ground targeted like warrior), sword strike that can pump you might, ranged axe attack, AOE burn, pistol attack, you name it. Each one could have an adjusted thing that only virtuoso has access to because it's no longer a phantasm, it's now more "real". And it fits the theme, each phantasm could become like a psionic attack.

 

It would be a radical departure from mesmer, but it would at least be something thought through. I don't mind the blade mechanic, but it feels tacked on, and doesn't bring much to the table like other profession mechanics from espec do. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[Varis.5467]

25 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I said in my review when Virtuoso came out - they didn't go all the way.

I don't mind the blade mechanic and cloneless spec, but they needed to get rid of phantasms too and make Virtuoso itself do those moves (then stock a blade after). With adjusted power coefficients to compensate for the fact that you are doing those moves, not a phantasm while you also attack in the meantime.

 

Then suddenly you have a greatsword spinny attack (perferably ground targeted like warrior), sword strike that can pump you might, ranged axe attack, AOE burn, pistol attack, you name it. Each one could have an adjusted thing that only virtuoso has access to because it's no longer a phantasm, it's now more "real". And it fits the theme, each phantasm could become like a psionic attack.

 

It would be a radical departure from mesmer, but it would at least be something thought through. I don't mind the blade mechanic, but it feels tacked on, and doesn't bring much to the table like other profession mechanics from espec do. 

Pretty much, the Virtuoso feels lazy and unfinished. It doesn't quite fulfill the identity of a radical departure from core mes nor does it add values to the core system as it stands. 

 

P.S. Take a look at its utility skills. Why are they psionic? Why does it even matter when nothing interacts with the skill type? Surly they are not strong enough to have an isolated skill type just so they do not benefit from any traits at all?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Varis.5467

[apharma.3741]

28 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I said in my review when Virtuoso came out - they didn't go all the way.

I don't mind the blade mechanic and cloneless spec, but they needed to get rid of phantasms too and make Virtuoso itself do those moves (then stock a blade after). With adjusted power coefficients to compensate for the fact that you are doing those moves, not a phantasm while you also attack in the meantime.

 

Then suddenly you have a greatsword spinny attack (perferably ground targeted like warrior), sword strike that can pump you might, ranged axe attack, AOE burn, pistol attack, you name it. Each one could have an adjusted thing that only virtuoso has access to because it's no longer a phantasm, it's now more "real". And it fits the theme, each phantasm could become like a psionic attack.

 

It would be a radical departure from mesmer, but it would at least be something thought through. I don't mind the blade mechanic, but it feels tacked on, and doesn't bring much to the table like other profession mechanics from espec do. 

It's funny you said this, on the old forums I suggested removing phantasms entirely (back when they stayed around like clones) and that mesmers should do the attack themselves and create a clone. The idea was to boil the class down to clone generators and clone spenders opening up the possibility for 2 categories of utility too.

Edit: Found the link https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Base-mesmer-power-dps-for-raids/6687903

Edited February 3, 2023 by apharma.3741
Linking old thread.

[Veprovina.4876]

30 minutes ago, Varis.5467 said:

Take a look at its utility skills. Why are they psionic? Why does it even matter when nothing interacts with the skill type? Surly they are not strong enough to have an isolated skill type just so they do not benefit from any traits at all?

Yeah, nothing on Virt makes much sense. I guess utility skills need a "type" but yeah, nothing interacts with that type so, why bother? Just unfinished and badly thought out. Definitely would need a rework, but dodge and Mirage first. There's so much problems on it from years of nerfs and unbalances that Virtuoso just doesn't have cause it came on top of that. It has its own problems, but one thing at a time, i don't expect Anet to do everything at once. That would not even be maybe perferable cause if you do too much, you lose track of how a particular change interacts with something, and might just make a bigger mess.

 

So dodge first...

 

31 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's funny you said this, on the old forums I suggested removing phantasms entirely (back when they stayed around like clones) and that mesmers should do the attack themselves and create a clone. The idea was to boil the class down to clone generators and clone spenders opening up the possibility for 2 categories of utility too.

Edit: Found the link https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Base-mesmer-power-dps-for-raids/6687903

I don't think it would have worked on core, or even Chrono or Mirage, but on Virtuoso, it would actually be a good change.

I still think Mirage should lose shatters and instead put deception skills on F skills, and add new utility instead. That way, it's a truly deceptive spec, clones still tied to a target, but they're up all the time, and forces you to not lose them or shatter them, but instead play into that whole thing.

 

I realize Mirage would become the ultimate noob trap, but hey, no one ever became good overnight, it would also force people to train how to spot the real mesmer, and in the end, everyone would benefit from it.

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yeah, nothing on Virt makes much sense. I guess utility skills need a "type" but yeah, nothing interacts with that type so, why bother? Just unfinished and badly thought out. Definitely would need a rework, but dodge and Mirage first. There's so much problems on it from years of nerfs and unbalances that Virtuoso just doesn't have cause it came on top of that. It has its own problems, but one thing at a time, i don't expect Anet to do everything at once. That would not even be maybe perferable cause if you do too much, you lose track of how a particular change interacts with something, and might just make a bigger mess.

 

So dodge first...

 

I don't think it would have worked on core, or even Chrono or Mirage, but on Virtuoso, it would actually be a good change.

I still think Mirage should lose shatters and instead put deception skills on F skills, and add new utility instead. That way, it's a truly deceptive spec, clones still tied to a target, but they're up all the time, and forces you to not lose them or shatter them, but instead play into that whole thing.

 

I realize Mirage would become the ultimate noob trap, but hey, no one ever became good overnight, it would also force people to train how to spot the real mesmer, and in the end, everyone would benefit from it.

Here's something to make you cry, Apex Legends made a better mirage than mirage.
 

 

[Veprovina.4876]

7 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Here's something to make you cry, Apex Legends made a better mirage than mirage.
 

 

Lol, yeah, that's pretty dope, not gonna lie!

That's what i think mirage should be in GW2, not a shatter spec, but just using clones as decoys and confuse people.

[semak.7481]

24 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

That's what i think mirage should be in GW2, not a shatter spec, but just using clones as decoys and confuse people.

Mesmer is still confusing to low skilled/new players even without mirage espec. Which attracts a lot of complains, do you want even more, because even when its bad, they are still complaining 🤷‍♂️

You wont confuse someone who fought mesmers a lot and spot you very quick. Boons/signets/health/movement pattern gives you up close to instant.

Edited February 3, 2023 by semak.7481

[Veprovina.4876]

5 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

Mesmer is still confusing to low skilled/new players even without mirage espec. Which attracts a lot of complains, do you want even more, because even when its bad, they are still complaining 🤷‍♂️

You wont confuse someone who fought mesmers a lot and spot you very quick. Boons/signets/health/movement pattern gives you up close to instant.

Yeah, but that's kind of the point. How else is anyone going to learn how to fight mesmers? Just removing what makes mesmers mesmers isn't a solution. 

 

There would of course have to be extensive balancing done to make mesmer "annoying but fair" if there would be a change to mirage F skills, but why should i care if someone is complaining they couldn't spot the real mesmer.

Hell, even i sometimes start attacking a clone now and then, and i play mesmer.

It's just a class mechanic. Everyone talks about it like it shouldn't exist because they got tricked by it. Well, i can't kill thieves, and it's harder to noscope a thief with limited non targeted skills mesmers have than it is to spot a clone. Yet i don't think thief stealth should be removed. Just that permastealth thing. 

Or, let them permastealth, but take away their portal. Because one with the other isn't good, they can literally conceal indefinitely in a keep, then portal a mesmer up, who then portals half of the squad, i mean, that's just not fair because there's no counter to that. You're forced to leave the thief in because 50 people can't find or kill it. 

Mesmers don't have that level of "trickery", and just because some newbie can't detect a real mesmer, well, not my problem. Do better. Play more and you'll eventually find them. Just because someone complains doesn't mean it's broken, op, or whatever.

It's there because mesmers on their own don't do as much damage, clones are your sustain. And it quickly falls apart when you do get targeted by someone who knows how to find you, and bring your health down in 1 skill...

 

So forgive me if i don't have sympathy for the complainers. I like my clones. It's the reason i play mesmer, the whole tricster illusionist mage feel. Removing that, or balancing anything around complainers that got their ego bruised woudln't be any more fair than removing stealth from thieves, or locking eles into one atunement for no reason.

 

[apharma.3741]

17 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

Mesmer is still confusing to low skilled/new players even without mirage espec. Which attracts a lot of complains, do you want even more, because even when its bad, they are still complaining 🤷‍♂️

You wont confuse someone who fought mesmers a lot and spot you very quick. Boons/signets/health/movement pattern gives you up close to instant.

For me I always thought mesmer clones should behave like the mesmer, like in the video when you activate the clone, when you move it moves, when you jump it jumps, when you attack it attacks but in GW2 clones would do it with a bit of randomness. So if you move left it might has a 50% chance to go in the same and a 50% chance to go in the opposite direction. Would be the omega noob stomper and exactly what an illusionist should be. Probably better as an elite spec though given people get confused by normal clones 😄 

Edited February 3, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Moradorin.6217]

3 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I have seen many catalysts try that but most end up dead and end up using vapour form to get back to safety. Catalyst is also more reliant on blocks in most builds which can be messed up in many ways while mesmer uses more invuln. You can technically use focus and mistform for some longer invuln durations but it's still not as much as double bladesong distortion, double bladesong return and blade renewal + 2 signets. I don't count the invuln on earth shield as it roots you.

I have also complained about catalysts, I'm making no friends with "ele mains", but this isn't a thread about eles.
What isn't healthy is the amount of distortion on mesmer in general and tying traits to distortion isn't good design either as it's tying beneficial effects to distortion incentivising mesmers to stack distortion which is unhealthy.

Im still catching up on the recent posts, but I was wondering why you seem to be saying if mesmer can have more evade frames its unhealthy but Catalyst being able to mitigate attacks frequently is ok cause it uses a higher ratio of blocks? If so that is hella random, nitpicky and smells of bias. I think that may be why the confused responses.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

36 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

Mesmer is still confusing to low skilled/new players even without mirage espec. Which attracts a lot of complains, do you want even more, because even when its bad, they are still complaining 🤷‍♂️

You wont confuse someone who fought mesmers a lot and spot you very quick. Boons/signets/health/movement pattern gives you up close to instant.

I would say it takes all of 2 minutes to understand how to pick out the real mesmer from the clones if a person takes the 2 minutes to ask or search google/reddit/forums/etc.

 

Its very simple most of the time because clones dont get food and other icons showing + they dont get some infusion effects, our legendary trinkets pop out weapon deploy animaions on new clones ohh and also mesmer signets only show on the real mesmer. So typically the real mesmer looks a little different and the real mesmer target shows food and other boosts that clones dont have.

Very Very simple 100% way that everyone can see. Its 100% L2P and simple enough for ANY player to comprehend.

 

Therefore, this is not a valid issue.

 

IMO this makes Mirage the Easiest Mesmer spec  to spot because they actually want to persist clones which makes finding the target easier vs a build that is constantly shattering and spawning tons of new targets like a Chrono. Maybe 2nd easiest after virt lol.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

So typically the real mesmer looks a little different and the real mesmer target shows food and other boosts that clones dont have.

Not to mention clones just stand there and autoattack, real mesmers move around. As soon as you see one use anything beyond autoattack, that's the real mesmer. There's more than enough tells to go by, people are just lazy and want to be handed victory on a silver platter so they complain.

 

Also, getting tricked - which is mesmer's main thing - hurts some people's egos, like, idk why but some people take it personally. So losing to a mesmer hurts more than it does to a warrior or whatever, i think that's also part of why there's so many overblown complaints. That shouldn't be a metric of how good/bad something is, just a metric of someone's personal growth - which is nothing to balance the game around.

 

20 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

For me I always thought mesmer clones should behave like the mesmer, like in the video when you activate the clone, when you move it moves, when you jump it jumps, when you attack it attacks but in GW2 clones would do it with a bit of randomness. So if you move left it might has a 50% chance to go in the same and a 50% chance to go in the opposite direction. Would be the omega noob stomper and exactly what an illusionist should be. Probably better as an elite spec though given people get confused by normal clones 😄 

That wouldn't actually be bad. Maybe if only mirage has that, like, core and chrono has normal dumb clones, and mirage ones - since they can't be shattered for damage and utility, move a bit. :P

 

I don't know how well they would be able to code that, so i'm perfectly fine with stationary autoattack clones, they're good enough, but dodge, and fixes first. Then we can see about F skills and such...

 

7 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Very Very simple 100% way that everyone can see. Its 100% L2P and simple enough for ANY player to comprehend.

 

Therefore, this is not a valid issue.

Exactly! Balancing the classs around someone elses l2p issue or personally bruised ego is not the way. It's not my fault you couldn't find the real mesmer, and i don't go rage on thief forums when literally getting hard countered by them every time. Most i can do is run away, or sometimes make the thief go away, but i don't think i ever killed one, just get killed by them. And that's fine, thieves hard counter mesmers - mesmers (should) hard counter stupidity.