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Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!


Veprovina.4876
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I mean look at this. 

 

Look at mirage compared to mechsnist. 

Look at our measly alac and might compared to what Mechanist and Firebrand offer. 

 

The poster didn't want to include Firebrand and Mechanist in the DPS section, because if they would, they'd be too their as well. 

 

You're still going to argue we do too much and Anet needs to take something away in order to return our dodge? 

 

Even if they return our dodge, make like it was at mirage launch, it still wouldn't get nearly as ridiculous as just Mechanist is. 

 

In WvW, Firebrand can heal, clense, provide stab, pull, have added toughness (unique buff, no one else is allowed those anymore), resolution and so much more. 

If I want just one of that I have to fully build a vhs ink around just one, and it still wouldn't be as effective as Firebrand is by default. 

 

Return boon sharing and distortion sharing on chrono and it still wouldn't be as broken as those two are now. 

 

You're still going to debate mesmer is in a good place? And that it doesn't need a rework? 

And that the balance team isn't a joke? 

You still gonna debate something has to be taken away for something else to be added? 

 

Man, if they spam our traits and skills with booms tomorrow it still wouldn't be as ridiculously broken as Firebrand and Mechanist. 

 

And why? 

 

Because devs play those. No other reason.

 

Sad state of the game. 

 

 

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Who cares anymore. I basically stopped playing after EoD. While I’ve hung around waiting for the big balance patches and updates each one was a reminder that Anet gonna do what Anet want, and that apparently is to leave multiple eSpecs and builds in a terrible state.

The joke that was their ‘look into Mesmer Weapons and Chrono’ update should make it clear enough. They have no idea what they are doing, and if it frustrates you, you should probably play the game less until they replace the big brained devs they have with new big brained devs who will likely skew the game in another differently unenjoyable way. 

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I agree with you in every single part OP! Its about time that they give us back our second dodge, and give it back as it was when Mirage was released.

Im tired of hearing that "Oh but Mirage will be too broken again..." excuse me? Other classes like firebrand and mech are already too broken! 

Never forget when people in this forum yelled after nerfs just bc Mirage recieved Alacrity on their Staff Ambush. "Its too easy! Its too Monkey brained!" And all sorts of stuff, while we for once recieved something good for mesmers. Even if Staff Alac Mirage is easy to learn, it's still very stressful to play since you have to make sure you keep up Might and Alac all the time, while other prof like mechs can just file their nails while they keep up their boons!

Now how was Staff Mirage too OP compared to what other classes can do today?

Give us back our dodge just as it was! This game is designed after 2 dodges and the devs should know that by now. And for peeps who think mirage will be broken again, play your game and actually learn it and I know you will find the real Mirage player and find ways to beat him/her. 

And while we're at it, give us back our traits that punished other players/enemies when they destroyed our clones! Anet deleted those traits because they didnt want to promote passive gameplay. Look at your game now! Its filled with passive gameplay, so you might aswell give us mesmers our traits back again, so our freaking clones gets more effective and punishing for once!

Edited by AshkyLicious.4729
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I don't really want to argue but I find Mesmer in general very good. It is probably the only class that preform multiple roles even if is not always the meta pick. 

For example If do bounties or champion farming, Mirage lets me survival almost any type of encounter. If I join a Fractal/Strike I can now DPS with both Virtuoso and Mirage while supporting with Alacrity Mirage or Quickness Chrono. If at any point I need to heal the new Well changes allow me push out an crazy amounts of AoE healing, or if I want more on demand healing I can use Mantras.
Once you commit the rotations and damage avoidance mechanics to muscle memory you just never die; nothing else I try even comes even close to Mesmer.

 

Edit: I will agree with the PVP comments though

Edited by Mell.4873
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Just now, Mell.4873 said:

I don't really want to argue but I find Mesmer in general very good. It is probably the only class that preform multiple roles really well and not die in the process.

For example I drop into a bounties or champion farming, Mirage lets me survival almost any type of encounter. If I join a Fractal/Strike I can now DPS with both Virtuoso and Mirage while supporting with Alacrity Mirage or Quickness Chrono. If at any point I need to heal the new Well changes allow me push out an crazy amounts of AoE healing, or if I want more on demand healing I can use Mantras.
Once you commit the rotations and damage avoidance mechanics to muscle memory you just never die; nothing else I try even comes even close to Mesmer.

So again blah blah PvE, alright can you do the same in competitive game modes? 

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3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So again blah blah PvE, alright can you do the same in competitive game modes? 

Sorry I added it later but I will agree with any PvP stuff since I only play Ranger there due to the lack of second dodge.

Edited by Mell.4873
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3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

In PvE mirage has 2 dodges so clearly the topic is for competitive play.

I mean the post started with a reply to the 10 Best PvE Squad Compositions, if anything the author is confused about the reddit post since it never mentioned PvP. Returning the second dodge would not change anything on that diagram.

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On 8/10/2022 at 4:38 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I mean the post started with a reply to the 10 Best PvE Squad Compositions, if anything the author is confused about the reddit post since it never mentioned PvP. Returning the second dodge would not change anything on that diagram.

OP isnt confused about anything Mell, that chart is a perfect demonstration of how Mirages Staff ambush works with the boons that it gives out, compared to specter, mech and untamed. Its already unfair compared to the other specs in PvE, you dont need to have a masters degree to see that, so please try to see the bigger picture for once!

And diving into WvW/PvP, things changes for the worst for Mirage. First we loose one dodge, which makes us so much more vulnerable as it already is. Second even our Might boon got nerfed, so instead of us stacking 8 might for 15 sec per ambush (PvE mode) , we stack only 4 might for 6 sec per ambush in PvP/WvW, and might is the boon we are depending on for our condi DPS. Yes we have mirrors, but managing and keeping track of our mirrors is hell in PvP and WvW since mirrors are so badly implemented, you often get strucked down before you get the chance to even run through your mirrors.

We get less effective in every single way since we only have 1 dodge to work with, we cant generate alac and might bc we need to wait for our energy bar to refill again, plus we are super vulnerable bc of only 1 dodge. Yeah this needs to get reverted by Anet, bc as it is right now this is 200% unfair against us who play mirage, especially when other specs gets away with easier builds, easier rotations and way much more boons that they can apply on themselves and others!

Edited by AshkyLicious.4729
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8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

No one boon supports in PvP with Mirage, maybe in WvW but you would never get enough Alacrity out without a target so the second dodge wont effect it anyway. Also i agree with all the PvP comments, I just disagree with the assertion that this post is only to do with PvP and if it is the reddit post is the wrong thing to reference.

Me and the Author even agree "Even if they return our dodge, make like it was at mirage launch, it still wouldn't get nearly as ridiculous as just Mechanist is." A second dodge wont fix Mirage (even if he never asserts it a PvP only thing).

The thing is, no one is asking for the second dodge back to be better than Mechanist in a support role. If they didn’t give Mirage alac on ambush, it would’ve never been given the support label to begin with and at the end of the day, with the amount of power creep mech has, there’s just other professions that do a better job at giving alac than we do in PvE and that’s a fact.

 

Mirage (when played as dps/cdps) is fine in PvE, period, end of story. Don’t bother look at playing it support cuz other elites do that better, thank Anet for that. But it’s clunky in WvW/PvP all because of the one dodge with no compensation. If Mirage is gonna be made a one dodge elite like Vindi then make sure it’s in all modes, not just one and have traits that contribute to restoring energy. If not then by all means, HASTLY, return the 2nd dodge, cuz it’s gonna take more than just people “complaining” about getting stomped while invulnerable when there’s OTHERS who can do the same thing and have a better kit.

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3 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

The thing is, no one is asking for the second dodge back to be better than Mechanist in a support role. If they didn’t give Mirage alac on ambush, it would’ve never been given the support label to begin with and at the end of the day, with the amount of power creep mech has, there’s just other professions that do a better job at giving alac than we do in PvE and that’s a fact.

 

Mirage (when played as dps/cdps) is fine in PvE, period, end of story. Don’t bother look at playing it support cuz other elites do that better, thank Anet for that. But it’s clunky in WvW/PvP all because of the one dodge with no compensation. If Mirage is gonna be made a one dodge elite like Vindi then make sure it’s in all modes, not just one and have traits that contribute to restoring energy. If not then by all means, HASTLY, return the 2nd dodge, cuz it’s gonna take more than just people “complaining” about getting stomped while invulnerable when there’s OTHERS who can do the same thing and have a better kit.

Again I agree, the whole thing stemmed from me saying I like playing it in PvE and Salt saying the post was about PvP. Arg I don't want to name call but yeah. 

I regularly bring Alacrity Mirage it to raids/strikes/fractals. I play the Insperation versions so I can push out more boons than Mechanist.

I will stop responding since this is going nowhere sigh.... I agree with everything said about Mirage. 

Edited by Mell.4873
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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm just asking for Jaunt to have a third stack, OR, keep the two stacks but with a 20 second cool down.


So either 30 seconds cool-down, three stacks


or 20 second cool-down, two stacks. Either would be fine to accept single evade mirage.

 

But yes, that second evade would help. 

 

If they complain again about the ambush frames, then ambush attacks could consume a clone as a sacrifice but honestly I don't want to compromise anymore, I'd like it returned as it was.

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Could you all please stop accepting 1 dodge or accepting compromises around changing mechanism, so it diverges more from PvE? Unless you’re also proposing to change mechanism in PvE as well.

I hate that they started splitting skills in a way that they work quite differently between game modes. They used to stick with only number changes, which was good, not sure why they started to think it’s fine to break the flow. It’s very confusing for players jumping between modes.

I would only accept 1 dodge if it’s also just 1 dodge in PvE. Buff all the numbers in PvE to compensate, sure. Or just bring 2 dodges back in PvP and WvW. I doubt if Mirage would be over performing at all. If it really is, just tone down some condition duration for some skills.

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12 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

Could you all please stop accepting 1 dodge or accepting compromises around changing mechanism, so it diverges more from PvE? Unless you’re also proposing to change mechanism in PvE as well.

I hate that they started splitting skills in a way that they work quite differently between game modes. They used to stick with only number changes, which was good, not sure why they started to think it’s fine to break the flow. It’s very confusing for players jumping between modes.

I would only accept 1 dodge if it’s also just 1 dodge in PvE. Buff all the numbers in PvE to compensate, sure. Or just bring 2 dodges back in PvP and WvW. I doubt if Mirage would be over performing at all. If it really is, just tone down some condition duration for some skills.

I think most people still run energy recharging builds so after the first dodge the rate at which you get them back should be pretty consistent. I guess the sigil goes to waste a little bit when you weapon swap so that is the only issue but the playstyle doesn't change much.

Right now it honestly in an okay position in PvP, some of the Mesmer players on this forum still use Mirage for both Conquest PvP and WvW. I think a big factor is simply that Thief has had repeated nerfs which means Mesmer is good option for roaming.

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5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think a big factor is simply that Thief has had repeated nerfs which means Mesmer is good option for roaming.

Uh what? The changes on SA was to divert passive playstyle into more active playstyle. In fact those who had an active playstyle benefitted more on this SA change then the old one. I don't know what you mean by repeated nerfs because at the end of the day thieves will ALWAYS counter Mesmer in ANY spec. The moment they gave ecto to thieves was a clear indication that thieves will always stomp over Mesmer at equal footing this isn't even a debate.

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25 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Uh what? The changes on SA was to divert passive playstyle into more active playstyle. In fact those who had an active playstyle benefitted more on this SA change then the old one. I don't know what you mean by repeated nerfs because at the end of the day thieves will ALWAYS counter Mesmer in ANY spec. The moment they gave ecto to thieves was a clear indication that thieves will always stomp over Mesmer at equal footing this isn't even a debate.

I never said anything about them fight each other just roaming potential. I more meant stealth nerfs which I did see they reversed some of them once they rebalanced some Shadow Arts(SA) traits. I going off the Thief forum so i guess i was mistaken if you say there are no nerfs to Thief.

My point still stands that Mesmer can be a good roamer and over all i see their popularity matched in Conquest PvP, most games have at least one Mesmer and one Thief. In terms of WvW I don't know, you would probably have a better idea about the popularity?

Edited by Mell.4873
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11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think most people still run energy recharging builds so after the first dodge the rate at which you get them back should be pretty consistent. I guess the sigil goes to waste a little bit when you weapon swap so that is the only issue but the playstyle doesn't change much.

If you just spam dodge off endurance, the "dodge per second" indeed would be the same because the regeneration rate is the same. However, that shouldn't be how we play the game, unless we're fighting against the dummy golem again.

When we have 2 dodges, the better strategy would be using 1 dodge when the endurance is full, and hold the 2nd dodge waiting for the better chance to use it, while waiting for endurance to regenerate. It's the same for Jaunt or any other ammo based skills. Hold it until we see there's a big attack coming that we need to dodge, or the target is about to be down to give them a final blow, or just for better positioning. Being able to burst 2 dodges in a row is also quite important for a lot of different strategies simply because Mirage Cloak is a very overloaded skill.

In contrast, having only 1 dodge, we have the dilemma that if we use it for offense, we'll be very vulnerable for counterattack. If we hold it for defense, we lose a big chunk of pressure (Edited: and lose the opportunity to regenerate endurance). That's it. The strategies are way shallower that it's just black and white, use it or not.

It's very different if we really think about it. Don't just spam things off.

11 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Right now it honestly in an okay position in PvP, some of the Mesmer players on this forum still use Mirage for both Conquest PvP and WvW. I think a big factor is simply that Thief has had repeated nerfs which means Mesmer is good option for roaming.

I don't play PvP so no comments there. I don't roam in WvW so can't really comment on the overall roaming status, but if one plays WvW there are chances to bump into roamers anyway. I see almost 0 Mirage over there. The very seldom ones I hit into either did 0 damage and disengaged constantly, or can be burst down very easily. Very little threat unless I am solo on my zergling Herald which can't deal with any condition pressure, and only if they play conditions. Of course, Mirage is completely useless in zerg even with 4 dodges.

Edited by godfat.2604
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11 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

It's the same for Jaunt or any other ammo based skills. Hold it until we see there's a big attack coming that we need to dodge, or the target is about to be down to give them a final blow, or just for better positioning. Being able to burst 2 dodges in a row is also quite important for a lot of different strategies simply because Mirage Cloak is a very overloaded skill.

I mean you answered your own question, Jaunt replaces most of what dodge should be. I mean that is how I see people us it in the 250 players in Conquest PvP. I'm not saying its ideal that Mirage has only one dodge but its not the end of the Elite.

I mean I would prefer they remove the immune to stun element to the dodge and then bring 2 dodges back (mind you the burst damage is still pretty insane)

11 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

I don't play PvP so no comments there. I don't roam in WvW so can't really comment on the overall roaming status, but if one plays WvW there are chances to bump into roamers anyway. I see almost 0 Mirage over there. The very seldom ones I hit into either did 0 damage and disengaged constantly, or can be burst down very easily. Very little threat unless I am solo on my zergling Herald which can't deal with any condition pressure, and only if they play conditions. Of course, Mirage is completely useless in zerg even with 4 dodges.

Honestly I have seen high level players still use Mirage and in the right hands they can easily pick off players with a flurry of conditions and clones. If anything they do better in Zerg's since its really hard to find the right clone.

This is all going in deaf airs since everyone wants Mirage to be easier to play and intern handing the tools to PvP players to dominate.

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21 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Honestly I have seen high level players still use Mirage and in the right hands they can easily pick off players with a flurry of conditions and clones. If anything they do better in Zerg's since its really hard to find the right clone.

This is all going in deaf airs since everyone wants Mirage to be easier to play and intern handing the tools to PvP players to dominate.

This is said about EVERY class, unfortunately the majority of the player base is not high level and more casual.

No mesmers dont do well or better in zergs because clones die to miniscule damage, clones often die as soon as they come out so no your statement shows how utterly wrong you are.

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On 8/11/2022 at 3:57 AM, Mell.4873 said:

Again I agree, the whole thing stemmed from me saying I like playing it in PvE and Salt saying the post was about PvP. Arg I don't want to name call but yeah. 

I regularly bring Alacrity Mirage it to raids/strikes/fractals. I play the Insperation versions so I can push out more boons than Mechanist.

I will stop responding since this is going nowhere sigh.... I agree with everything said about Mirage. 

A big part of what ruined pve for me as Mirage was the way that one dodge forced Mirage to play played totally differently and to think about dodge differently and timing and well everything that makes what I feel dictates a play style got split into 2 different things. That ruined it for me I was die hard about a year, but after the auto attack and other damage nerfs post 1 dodge I just retired me Mesmer and went to Necro, Engi and Ranger for my multi-mode wvw/pvp/pve play which is what I still play with maybe a little Rev or guard once in a while, but not mesmer because of the strange 1 dodge one mode and 2 dodge in other mode.

 

Then in pve I would say Mirage is ok, but not a good choice for things like T4 fractals generally due to ramp up time and/or limited power dps compared to others. At least last I used Mirage in pve that was for SURE the case. I used to run it in T4 and CMs but other classes could just out burst it in many situations which is why it wasnt/isnt meta outside condi favorable encounters.

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23 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think most people still run energy recharging builds so after the first dodge the rate at which you get them back should be pretty consistent. I guess the sigil goes to waste a little bit when you weapon swap so that is the only issue but the playstyle doesn't change much.

Right now it honestly in an okay position in PvP, some of the Mesmer players on this forum still use Mirage for both Conquest PvP and WvW. I think a big factor is simply that Thief has had repeated nerfs which means Mesmer is good option for roaming.

No u really dont seem to understand one dodge tbh. You said yourself you dont play it. Yea Mirage usually run energy sigil unless they get enough kills to use stamina in its place like Halloween Lab w GS. In wvw tho the issue becomes that Mirage gets its damage and defense from dodge. With one dodge things like Vigor and energy regen become more vital to use, but also less effecive because of the half sized energy pool from only 1 dodge. The sigil still gives a full dodge of energy on swap, but things like energy regen from food stop sooner and do less because the bar is always full, then one you dodge you are gona swap if you can to instant refill then the food is wasted but if you had 2 dodges the food would still be filling up the 2nd dodge and adding benefit.confusing sorry

 

> better maybe >

You start with a full bar > dodge empty >swap insta full > dodge 2nd time bar 100% empty and no swap > regen helps but it has half capacity so its full in half the time (half the benefit) > no more benefit from regen food, vigor, etc until you use that one precious dodge again. > repeat. Its not like pve the way you have to play it in combat is not the same, you cannot do the same things and expect to live.

<<

So the one dodge is more like giving scourge half life force in a sense for wvw I guess. or forcing a class w health regen healing to have half the health pool in pvp which would greatly reduce the benefit of that slow healing like the one dodge lowers the benefit of the regen food and also means that the sigil will fill your bar and make you lose out on regen during those ticks after swap until you dodge again and have used sigil only then would things like Vigor, energy food, natural energy regen even be of benefit to a mirage when you think about it.

Edited by Moradorin.6217
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