Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[apharma.3741]

Just now, Moradorin.6217 said:

Im still catching up on the recent posts, but I was wondering why you seem to be saying if mesmer can have more evade frames its unhealthy but Catalyst being able to mitigate attacks frequently is ok cause it uses a higher ratio of blocks?

Not evade frames, true invuln and block. Mesmer through signet of illusions, inspiration and blade renewel has 50% more invuln at least than catalyst can have (discounting earth shield as it roots you but I also believe earth shield needs to lose the invuln) and also a lot more block time especially if we count weapon skills. You could technically use mimic with blade renewal to get another one but I think everyone would rather use blink.
By no means do I think current catalyst is in the least bit balanced sitting there with perma prot, resolution, stability, regen, fury, 25 might, vigor and then resistance, quickness and everything else it can get from jade spheres in WvW with it's cele build. I'm under no illusions that catalyst is basically a raid boss in 1v1 and small scale that you need necros to kill or that mesmer boon strip can't keep up with the boon spam.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

To my fellow mesmer mainers! ❤️

The stream is soon, and unfortunately Im gonna miss it, cuz Im goin to be away at a friends house!

I want to ask you guys a favor! Incase we actually get buffed in any significant way, please tag my name in your posts in this thread! That way I'll know that Im in for a treat, when i come home later 🤩 cross my fingers for us Mirages now!!!! 🤞

[apharma.3741]

3 hours ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

To my fellow mesmer mainers! ❤️

The stream is soon, and unfortunately Im gonna miss it, cuz Im goin to be away at a friends house!

I want to ask you guys a favor! Incase we actually get buffed in any significant way, please tag my name in your posts in this thread! That way I'll know that Im in for a treat, when i come home later 🤩 cross my fingers for us Mirages now!!!! 🤞

I'm gonna need to get a bottle of whiskey and you're gonna need a bottle of wine.

Edited February 3, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Curunen.8729]

On 2/1/2023 at 4:07 PM, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

They keep the streams on YouTube and will most likely provide full patch notes on the forums after the livestream. 
 

What I wonder is what all the Mesmer mains are doing in preparation for the next patch?  It got awful quiet for a few days when they announced the patch live stream. We all trying to remain calm and centered while Mirage gets ignored again?

I don't think too many care anymore.

Keeping an eye on patch notes but as long as they don't wreck stuff further and I can enjoy the visuals/fashion then that's fine.

[apharma.3741]

15 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

That wouldn't actually be bad. Maybe if only mirage has that, like, core and chrono has normal dumb clones, and mirage ones - since they can't be shattered for damage and utility, move a bit. 😛

 

I don't know how well they would be able to code that, so i'm perfectly fine with stationary autoattack clones, they're good enough, but dodge, and fixes first. Then we can see about F skills and such...

Probably wouldn't be too hard, if the guys at Respawn could do it I'm sure ANet could. Personally I'd have made default mesmer more like that but I also would not have phantasms in the game at all.
For me default mesmer would be:
You would generate clones that behave similar to you.
Skills that generate clones would allow you to swap places for up to 5s.
Shatters would consume clones but you could also have utilities that generate or consume clones too in different ways.
You may not have 4 shatters, it might go down to 2 or 3 (defence, offence, utility).
Probably would reduce mesmers reliance on stealth in favour of dropping target to differentiate it from thief.
Clones would also have a bit more health, not much, you can still 2 shot them in zerk.

The classes general theme (in my opinion) would be about boon control (removal and stealing), damage through boon removal, interruption and punishing interruption, dropping target and short teleports and switching. In general it would have poor healing but good condition management through cleanses or transfers and good damage mitigation utilising aegis a bit more to take hits instead of distortion. 

Basically a hybrid of guard, thief and necro in some ways, just my opinion, no-one needs to agree with it.

[apharma.3741]

19 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I don't think too many care anymore.

Keeping an eye on patch notes but as long as they don't wreck stuff further and I can enjoy the visuals/fashion then that's fine.

I was looking through the old forum, man we became so jaded now, so many names no longer around either 😿
Edit: Fay and Pyroatheist, man I haven't seen them in years, looks like they dropped off end of 2019 and 2020.

Edited February 3, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Veprovina.4876]

Well, mesmer in general is in a very sad state, no wonder people left. Some changed mains, some left entirely.

That's why this thread exists. To show Anet that we're also people who just want to have fun on our class like everyone else, and that's unacceptable the way we've been treated. 

[Veprovina.4876]

Double post for some reason lol, first time it happened. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[Mell.4873]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:40 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Yeah sure, give back Mirage second dodge so I can be unkillable while also killing my opponent.

 

I've recently geared up my Mirage for WvW and it is so comfy and stupid to play. It "only" has one dodge and yet I can dodge as much if not more than a Daredevil. And just like Daredevil my dodge also serve as an attack. The class has access to quite a lot of vigor and those...sandshard or whatever it is making me able to create ambush skill almost all the time. And what counterplay to they have ? If they send me back my condition I can either cleanse them or send them back again. If somehow I'm on low health I can just stealth and ninja vanish away. If I'm CC I can still dodge and prevent any damage. The only class able to relatively easy counter me is SA Deadeye but even against them, I can just burst condi and force them to use their stealth as condi cleanse instead of a tool to reposition or attack...Or I can just not fight them and run away, something both Mesmer and Thief can easily do. 

 

And all of that is possible with only 1 dodge. I really should have played Mirage more when it used to have 2 dodge in WvW, seeing how strong it is with only 1 dodge. 

 

And if people are still not convinced, they should just look at how Vindicator was the moment Anet decided to remove all tradeoff from specs. But if you guys are dead set on wanting to give Mirage back its second dodge (at least in WvW) then please be my guest, bullying people with Mirage ambush is also a fun activity.

 

 

 

 

Yeah that's why alot of people have said they should nerf the Ambush in some way and that should balance out the duel nature of the dodge. 

Untamed has a great Ambush since its on a 15 second cooldown, Deadeye is similar but instead requires malice. We just need something to prevent people spamming it, a cooldown would be the easiest fix. 

[Mell.4873]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:55 AM, apharma.3741 said:

He was probably playing one of these or a variant on these builds:
https://guildjen.com/condition-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/
https://guildjen.com/power-ambush-mirage-roaming-build/

I think the only mesmer builds I really need to try from there are chrono but I am seeing a pattern of inspiration in most builds they rate as great. I'd be lying if I said they were bad, they're not, you can actually fight reasonably well but I've also been trying out some of the other classes and builds around and mesmer doesn't hold a candle to the damage and survivability of some of the other top ranked for other classes.
Grenade holo absolutely dumpsters people in WvW with insane damage output and more than enough cleanses, blocks and invulns. Not exactly lacking for mobility too and it's not even using swiftness or rune.
Willbender is incredibly mobile and will body you very fast with not many ways to counter before they speed away and reset.
Thief....is thief but try that celestial P/P build, I don't think anything can kill it in a 1v1.
Most ranger specs are better than all mesmer specs.
I mostly roam EU though so your mileage will vary.

Honestly WvW is a dumpster fire of garbage builds. 

My favourite it's the high speed Soulbeast, heralded as one of the best WvW roamers but do you know what it cant do.  Kill anyone with 2 brain cells, I mean you just avoid them since they just run away whenever they get scared. 

Most of the time all the mobility and stuff people claim is good it hot garbage unless you doing something very specific like chasing a Vindicator or Soulbeast untill they kill you. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Sigh, maybe next time....

For those who aren't watching the stream, there were 0 changes to Mirage, the eSpec was not even name checked.

Some nice QoL updates for Chrono, a fix for Virtuoso Psychic Riposte, notes should be up soon enough.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Moradorin.6217]

Lol they at least did some things for mesmer like adding a glamor trait of some type and a change to Time Warp that is actually a good step. But they clearly have a massive bias against even talking about Mirage. CMC I fear may be incapable of balancing Mirage in any sensible way. Its ok at least he is trying to do something for the other specs.

 

CMC cannot help it if he is totally incompetent. He still has this job and Im sure he is doing the best he can.

[apharma.3741]

I'll take a buff and nice to see timewarp will be next complained about.
Mantra of distraction recharging diversion is really not a good idea, it's what enabled CC spam.
Mantra of pain still boring.
Glamour trait back wooo
Lost aegis on phantasms so if you enjoyed that hard luck.
On the bright side defender rune chrono can now run manipulations and get heals from the aegis.
Was this actually the lowest number of changes for any class??
So buff to shatter chrono maybe, fix for virtuoso and everything else is kinda shafted.
No 2nd dodge what a meme.

[Loic.9657]

I'm not surprised honestly.

It is what it is.

I have a feeling that mirage's second dodge they mentioned before is just like a politician's words to calm people, but not going to do something actually.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Loic.9657

[Waffles.5632]

They couldn't even name drop Mirage how scared of the class are they still? How much longer must we suffer?

Edit: I liked the time warp change, that is literally about it. I absolutely hate the mantra change. Huge step backwards imo. It's not even a rework, they just reverted the changes they made before! LOL

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Veprovina.4876]

Well, we keep the thread going til we get that dodge back. Make ourselves heard!

Nice to know there were some positive changes though.

 

If anyone would link the update notes when they drop, would be appreciated.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

4 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Well, we keep the thread going til we get that dodge back. Make ourselves heard!

Nice to know there were some positive changes though.

 

If anyone would link the update notes when they drop, would be appreciated.

 

The below quote is from the Mantras section.  I wonder if that sentiment extends to Mirage dodges as well...

Quote

There was some concern about creating a functional difference between game modes, so we moved away from that idea and went with the more significant rework that's in the game now. Since then, we've become more open to functional differences across game modes

As an aside, they stated that they made the original Mantra changes because of Guardian QoL issues, not because of anything to do with Mesmer.  What does this show you about the care and concern CMC at al have for Mesmer?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Mungo Zen.9364

[katte nici.9483]

Mantra change is good they should just come up with someting more creative

 

[Curunen.8729]

Unless I'm missing something, I really hate how they skipped over blink for a cooldown reduction in wvw when deleting master of manipulation cooldown...

Decoy and Mirror Images cooldown reduction - about time.

 

[Tseison.4659]

5 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Unless I'm missing something, I really hate how they skipped over blink for a cooldown reduction in wvw when deleting master of manipulation cooldown...

Decoy and Mirror Images cooldown reduction - about time.

 

I was asking the same thing, like, why is Blink not compensated as well? It’s 35s cd in WvW/PvP and could have very well gotten it’s cooldown reduced to 25s or something and then just leave the cooldown in PvE as 20s since it’s pretty short enough there anyways. 
 

 

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Tseison.4659 said:

I was asking the same thing, like, why is Blink not compensated as well? It’s 35s cd in WvW/PvP and could have very well gotten it’s cooldown reduced to 25s or something and then just leave the cooldown in PvE as 20s since it’s pretty short enough there anyways. 
 

 

The devs dislike blink. They increased it from 30 to 35 and now they're removing the trait that let you get close t o the old cool down. Mesmer is not supposed to be mobile it seems.

[Mell.4873]

Love whoever is going back and reacting to my posts in thread. I got to see how much sense i made.

Sadly, it does seem like we won't see the second dodge return at least until later on this year, when they do the PvP balance again (every 3-4 months?).

[Veprovina.4876]

Had a chance to go through the changes now...

 

Well, i guess they're deathly afraid of Mirage, or they're doing a massive rework and it's just not ready yet.

Copium, i know.

I don't understand why they couldn't return the dodge with this update, it would literally help them decide on further actions when they see how the dodge affects everything else on mirage. 

But ok, i guess we can wait some more.

 

I don't actually hate the changes though, i think they're good.

I like that Time Warp will probably see more play now.

Mantras are back to normal and will be more powerful, maybe even a mantra mesmer healer build? Depends if they take ages to cast that inital cast though, and what exactly the trait will consider, both the prepare and the casts, or just either... Still, not against more powerful mantras. We'll see how they function when the update drops.

Mimic cooldown reduction - will help a lot with boonstrip which was lacking since they nerfed it last time.

Mass Invis is fun in small chaos parties.  Nice to see it get a cooldown reduction. Though, still not a really useful skill, but i like to sometimes troll people with it when i'm roaming with 5-10 people. 

Glamour trait? Yes! Superspeed access and duration increase, nice!

 

Echo of memory - never summoned a phantasm for me but i guess it can? lol

Wells still have a "powerful final pulse" so they're not really interesting in WvW to me, but i guess they could be more useful in PvE now.

Tides of time... Umm what? Lol, chrono just became the ultimate piano class with this change. I don't mind, but pulling that off just for a slight reduction in recharge would probably not be worth it, but if the reduction is big enough, i guess it could be a high skill - high reward thing. And would make shield worth it.

Though - as good as the changes are for Chrono, they kinda hit mirage the most... :(

Edited February 4, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[AshkyLicious.4729]

@Cal Cohen.2358

Im speechless after this patch preview. I see the reverts and buffs they are going to make but Im honestly tired of being happy for everybody else every single time! just to feel neglected and left out myself yet again.

This patch low key nerfs roaming Mirage, with the change to the Master of Manipulations trait. So we'll loose cd reduction on blink and we'll loose superspeed for aegis instead... like I dont know what to say at this point.

Many of us expected positive changes for Mirage in this patch, but all we get is yet another nerf again.

This bias has gone too far, and Im getting tired of this.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Veprovina.4876]

Well, i just tagged Cal in the patch preview thread, and posted a link to our thread.

Everyone else, if you want, do the same, let him know we need that dodge back.

But please be respectful.