Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Waffles.5632]

32 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

I’m not saying you won’t get in trouble but in the past few months people in the Mesmer community have tagged Anet staff members in posts talking about these discord leaks, about the prejudice the developers have for this profession, even calling for the removal of CMC and his staff. 
 

These posts aren’t even deleted let alone the posters flagged or banned.  If the developers actually read these forums they do not care to do anything about these topics. It shows the lack of care when the developers are generally okay with letting a subset of their player base be this angry and or upset and say nothing.
 

The silence is deafening. 

I did not know that ty. It is my understanding that you just have to respect the privacy, so you can't name names, or link directly to the chat that has names visible. The only way it was allowed to be left up on reddit was because everyone's names were blacked out. I believe the Head Dev at that time got a lot of heat and even some death threats, which I never agree with, but yeah.

 

And I do agree fully. The Silence is deafening.

 

I will always remember the exact quote of "I buffed staff because I didn't like playing axe" and that wasn't even the worst offense. But that explained to me everything right then and there as to why Staff Ambush got 8x might+ alac out of nowhere while Axe was just left to suffer for the longest time. It really spoke loudly in regards to the lack of professionalism when looking at the Mesmer class.

Even if it was a joke, it was the worst joke to make. To have those words coming from the lead dev at that time, in a secret discord chat with all the other big streamers. It just felt disgusting.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Veprovina.4876]

Just a small update - my computer died some hardware issue, I have to get it fixed so I can only read and post on tbr forums from mobile so if I post something it'll be brief cause editing multiple quote and responding to specific things is a pain on mobile.

 

I will say this - i agree, I did read that leak and I was also absolutely disgusted by how this is allowed to happen and how nothing changed.

 

You'd think they'd have the decency to at least respond by "Hey people, mirage 2 dodges is not the path we want mirage on blah..." or anything. 

 

But they're content to let this slide.

 

I do however like that so many mesmers finally agree that this treatment shouldn't be allowed to go on, and even if we end up being ignored, I'm glad the community came together and told the devs that we are not happy and that what they're doing is wrong.

 

I'm proud of us. 🙂

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Just a small update - my computer died some hardware issue, I have to get it fixed so I can only read and post on tbr forums from mobile so if I post something it'll be brief cause editing multiple quote and responding to specific things is a pain on mobile.

 

I will say this - i agree, I did read that leak and I was also absolutely disgusted by how this is allowed to happen and how nothing changed.

 

You'd think they'd have the decency to at least respond by "Hey people, mirage 2 dodges is not the path we want mirage on blah..." or anything. 

 

But they're content to let this slide.

 

I do however like that so many mesmers finally agree that this treatment shouldn't be allowed to go on, and even if we end up being ignored, I'm glad the community came together and told the devs that we are not happy and that what they're doing is wrong.

 

I'm proud of us. 🙂

Is this a new leak where they are saying they won't give 2nd dodge back or the old leaks where staff was buffed because the person in charge didn't like playing axe?

[Mell.4873]

The leak thing is not new and not really relevant since they have talked about returning the second dodge, we just don't know when. 

[apharma.3741]

34 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The leak thing is not new and not really relevant since they have talked about returning the second dodge, we just don't know when. 

Thanks. What people say and what they do tend to be very different things. ANet especially.

[Esufer.8762]

On 2/12/2023 at 8:07 PM, Veprovina.4876 said:

The title of this thread is return the second dodge. They know what we mean when we want consistent number of dodges across all game modes.

I mean technically they could return the second dodge, but then remove the first one to compensate.

Malicious compliance at its finest.

[Waffles.5632]

5 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Moderators keep the peace, if a post of yours or someone else's post was removed it is (from my experience) because you either were quite nasty in your responses or you quoted/responded to a post that was deleted.

The mesmer forum is getting exactly the treatment it deserves after it's performance displayed in this thread and others.
When you point a finger at someone else, there's 3 more pointing back at you.

Edit: For the "confused" people. This thread and a few others in the forum have had to be moderated. I haven't seen this level of moderation needed in the mesmer sub forum for a very long time.

 

Yeah when I first came here I got attacked and belittled constantly just for saying "Power Mirage is okay" and that IMO it was like B tier for pvp. This was back then tho, not now.

I forget the thread exactly but I got moderated because I ended up writing a pretty nasty post towards the end. I was out of turn tbh, and it was more like a timeout than anything. You know, to let heated minds cool off and such.

 

I still get confused emoji's on some of my posts, but not really in this section anymore, and I mean that's whatever anyways. Mell get's 10+ confused emojis every other post and they're still positive and civil. Much respect tbh. Idk if I could handle that all the time. 🥲

Let us not forget how jaded and vile the mesmer section used to be. I came on the tail end but even still, it got pretty bad sometimes IMO. I'll never agree with some of the language people have used, and I'll never agree with anyone saying death threats to devs and stuff either, even though I can understand the frustration behind it, it's just never okay.

Gotta try to keep it civil always, this is just a game, and the devs, whether we agree with them or not, put in a ton of work day in and day out for us all to keep playing this game, one dodge or not!

 

 

 

As for the leak, I think it's still relevant because it's still the same design philosophy of  "Mesmer can't be good because -reasons-" and I just can't ever agree with that perspective.

Don't make a class if you are constantly ham-stringing it. That creates the exact situation we're all in right now, where everyone is frustrated because they can see the potential and we want to push that potential, but we're constantly being held back. It then gets compounded with resentment because other classes get pushed forward.

 

 

 

Also the most recent language of Anet saying they're going to work more on "Popular Game Modes" which means Raids and sPvP are all but dead now, because those 2 modes by far are the weakest game modes in terms of how many players actually participate. Even Grouch on Teapot's stream said the keyword is "popular".  Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I took it.

 

For raids I think, it's like less than 1% of the entire GW2 population or something. Now raids are it's own beast, so don't wanna get into that, but I do feel Raids and sPvP kinda have the same issue where their communities gatekeep and make it so newer players just can't really enter, not at least without a ton of frustration and sometimes just outright bullying being thrown their way.

 

But what can ya do right?! 😂

 

I can keep posting about Mirage only having one dodge! 😁

Sooner or later Anet will capitulate and then we can rejoice! hahahaha

Either that or well, we all just eventually move on.

 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Moradorin.6217]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

The leak thing is not new and not really relevant since they have talked about returning the second dodge, we just don't know when. 

They never said "we WILL be getting out dodge back", specifically.

They said Mirage's other dodge is on the table and it was said in the stream they specifically announced that Vindicator would get a 2nd dodge in all game modes.

Its a similar statement. I think anyone objective would consider that Vindicator was designed specifically to work with one dodge but was obviously not working as they had hoped because they decided it needed a 2nd dodge pretty soon after Vind's release. Furthermore, I would say that it made it necessary for them to mention Mirage because it was the giant elephant in the room, so to speak, when they gave Vind a 2nd dodge since Mirage players have complained about the split-mode 1-2 variable number of dodges for Mirage for 3 years now with no response.

Obviously, Mirage should have the same number of dodges in all game modes like every other class. I can only speculate that they bet on the idea that most Mirage players only do pve now so most wont even realize and they have kinda been trying to sweep it and the fact that Vind was changed from its orignial 1 dodge concept under the rug.

I see no reasonable way in which anyone could defend Anet's position on Mirage's number of dodges once its put into this context. I have never seen anyone wage an objective defense of it to this day.

Clearly, Mirage is due a 2nd dodge or at the very least the same number of dodges in all 3 modes like every other spec in game. It could be 1, 2 or 3 dodges as long as its the same number in pvp/wvw/pve.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[Gesbo.6420]

11 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

They never we WILL be getting out dodge back.

They said Mirage's other dodge is on the table and it was said in the stream they specifically announced that Vindicator would get a 2nd dodge in all game modes.

Its a similar statement. I think anyone objective would consider that Vindicator was designed specifically to work with one dodge but was obviously not working as they had hoped because they decided it needed a 2nd dodge pretty soon after Vind's release. Furthermore, I would say that it made it necessary for them to mention Mirage because it was the giant elephant in the room, so to speak, when they gave Vind a 2nd dodge since Mirage players have complained about the split-mode 1-2 variable number of dodges for Mirage for 3 years now with no response.

Obviously, Mirage should have the same number of dodges in all game modes like every other class. I can only speculate that they bet on the idea that most Mirage players only do pve now so most wont even realize and they have kinda been trying to sweep it and the fact that Vind was changed from its orignial 1 dodge concept under the rug.

I see no reasonable way in which anyone could defend Anet's position on Mirage's number of dodges once its put into this context. I have never seen anyone wage an objective defense of it to this day.

My issue with this is that they tried and tested implementing a single dodge elite spec that base line has plenty of ways to recover endurance and saw that it didnt work. Short after they changed their decision and with it started teasing the idea that mirages should get the same treatment AND 2 patches later nothing about it has been even mentioned other than a side coment.

 

They realised that the decision was bad, and imediately fixed it probably becasue elite specs for many people are a selling point, but mirage has had their endurence reduced in competetive mode for 3 whole years now. People are righfully upset imho. Same treatement was needed this patch for the mirage.

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

My issue with this is that they tried and tested implementing a single dodge elite spec that base line has plenty of ways to recover endurance and saw that it didnt work. Short after they changed their decision and with it started teasing the idea that mirages should get the same treatment AND 2 patches later nothing about it has been even mentioned other than a side coment.

 

They realised that the decision was bad, and imediately fixed it probably becasue elite specs for many people are a selling point, but mirage has had their endurence reduced in competetive mode for 3 whole years now. People are righfully upset imho. Same treatement was needed this patch for the mirage.

Well the obvious difference is that Mirage is from PoF which they are basically done trying to monetize but EoD is the product now, so to speak. I would say that is a poor reason but it fits the timeline and what has been done by them. That is, give enough lip service to general players as they buff up Vind (eod) and mention Mirage (pof) but dont do it cause its not the $$ action.

Agreed that Mirage should have gotten its dodge when Vind got a 2nd dodge. We all figured it was coming, but still no mention of Mirage by them so the past 3 years has many of us convinced that they are just trying to ignore the issue now that they are done giving Vind a 2nd dodge.

 

That's why this thread is still so active.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Moradorin.6217

[katte nici.9483]

There is also a code of conduct between a company and their customers which has been violated by anet for years now. Treating a part of your customers worse -and we know that this is true and there is good evidence of it- is not acceptable behavior. The correct reaction on our part would be to just quit the game and move on. A lot of people have done that already. Instead of that we on the forum have been giving anet the benefit of the doubt that they will see the error in their way and turn around any minute now. And this has been going on for years. For longer than I play this game in fact. Perhaps that has been a mistake. Perhaps we should just very nicely and respectfully say good bye.

[Salt Mode.3780]

False positivity has always been the bane of success. There should be no credit given to someone who is supposed to do their job but have every right to be criticized for doing their job wrong. 

As far as the leak goes, the whole staff fiasco is just a small part of the clear bias towards Mesmer class, proof is more or less on the patch notes. What they call "buffs" is returning what they have taken, the most recent Mantra "un-work" proved to be the case that the multis don't align to the tooltips as well not return our old multipliers back, they nerfed mantras because there as no cast time, but now they just gave back the cast time without returning the stuff they nerfed. It's just like how they nerfed everything when we had 2 dodges but took away our dodge without buffing back anything when we had 2 dodges.

As far as returning the dodge to Mirage, it was spoken once nearly half a year ago and was never mentioned again. 

I don't understand how people can still blindly stand behind such negligence when the people whose JOB is to work on this game are not being held accountable. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Salt Mode.3780

[Veprovina.4876]

6 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I don't understand how people can still blindly stand behind such negligence when the people whose JOB is to work on this game are not being held accountable. 

You know how it goes theese days. As long as this all is quite and contained to this forum, they'll just keep ignoring us.

 

If you want something done, make some noise.

If people who don't even play gw2, read about how a subset of the community is being discriminated against and how certain people do that on purpose out of spite (I guess, I have no other explanation for such bad treatment for so long), and still have a job where the job is to be objective, then it won't look good for Anet.

 

At that point they stand to lose more than they do now. Cause who cares about a few dirhard mesmers, so what If we quit, people will still play the game.

 

But if the broader audience sees how a company has allowed what basically amounts to bullying their certain paying playerbase, it won't look good, steam sales might go down, etc.

 

Of course, every teapot out there will come to the defense, but they can't deny the leaks, they can't deny the state of mesmers compared to others.

 

Sure virtu works in PvE, so does chrono for trash mobs. But once you start looking at competitive, the difference is staggering. And the only argument is that some god tier players get a couple of wins with mirage. Well, woohoo...

 

It's a mess at anet right now and certain people should have never been put in the places they are now because they're doing damage to this otherwise great game.

 

The talent left long ago unfortunately...

 

And if I get banned for this comment, and the comment deleted, then you know I'm on to something haha. 😜

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You know how it goes theese days. As long as this all is quite and contained to this forum, they'll just keep ignoring us.

 

If you want something done, make some noise.

If people who don't even play gw2, read about how a subset of the community is being discriminated against and how certain people do that on purpose out of spite (I guess, I have no other explanation for such bad treatment for so long), and still have a job where the job is to be objective, then it won't look good for Anet.

 

At that point they stand to lose more than they do now. Cause who cares about a few dirhard mesmers, so what If we quit, people will still play the game.

 

But if the broader audience sees how a company has allowed what basically amounts to bullying their certain paying playerbase, it won't look good, steam sales might go down, etc.

 

Of course, every teapot out there will come to the defense, but they can't deny the leaks, they can't deny the state of mesmers compared to others.

 

Sure virtu works in PvE, so does chrono for trash mobs. But once you start looking at competitive, the difference is staggering. And the only argument is that some god tier players get a couple of wins with mirage. Well, woohoo...

 

It's a mess at anet right now and certain people should have never been put in the places they are now because they're doing damage to this otherwise great game.

 

The talent left long ago unfortunately...

 

And if I get banned for this comment, and the comment deleted, then you know I'm on to something haha. 😜

This post won't get deleted as it hasn't broken any forum rules, this is a personal opinion and follows the rules, I would suggest those unfamiliar with them read the code of conduct, especially those "confused" people.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/legal/the-forums-code-of-conduct/
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/94822-forum-moderation-and-infraction-system/?tab=comments#comment-1354025

Shouting and making noise by itself doesn't get things done, you need to be able to irrefutably prove what you are saying while also entertaining different points of view on interpretation. You would also need to prove it's performance so clips from top players rating the performance of mesmer, mirage, virtuoso., rankings on metabattle, guildjen and hardstuck etc to give a more rounded view of mesmer's state with evaluation of enablers and trait lines.
Be aware of the Code of Conduct, you aren't allowed to link to the leaks directly but if you link to a file that links to the snippets in the file as a point of reference you might be OK.

The one dodge is easiest to prove that should be restored as Vindicator had 1 dodge turned into 2. However an argument may have to be crafted to defend against Vindicator as an example of 2 dodges being given and balancing it after was required with substantial nerfs. It is still bouncing around like a pogo stick in WvW after all. You may also need to account for the interaction of desert distortion, blurred inscriptions and signet of illusions which gives a lot of mirage cloak but without these mirage doesn't have as much mobility, ambush skill use or mirage cloak (via mirrors) for IH. This is not my personal opinion, this is me giving you a heads up of what people are likely to say as justification for keeping 1 dodge.

To prove actual bias against the mesmer class would be a lot more work, I did some preliminary ground work looking at the last 18 months of updates and you might be able to make a case however some other professions also seem to be neglected. Proof would need to be number of updates to mesmer vs other professions broken down by months, game mode and totalled for comparisons with references to the update notes. It's not a small task. In other words you would need to use maths not just say look at these 2 things, it's clear they're biased.

TLDR: I know a lot of you don't like walls of text but it's not without reason, I'm outlining how I would go about proving what Veprovina has stated. Collecting and distilling evidence down into an concise, non emotionally charged, not blame focused post/read would help a lot. I'll see what I can do with the wiki.

 

[Waffles.5632]

I think keeping this thread going helps a lot as well. 16 pages about the same thing: Returning second dodge. When it gets to 20 pages, 30 pages, 40 pages, I wonder what the devs will think of then.

This thread was made on August 8, 2022 as well. So about half a year and it's still the top thread in this section. To me that is a powerful statement in and of itself.

 

Edit: Also I seem to recall Mirage one dodge being considered a "trade off" at the time. Anet's logic was giving elites trade offs. DD got swipe instead of steal (reverted now), berserker got -300 toughness in zerk mode (reverted now), scrapper got -150 vit I think (reverted now) etc.

So it looks like Mirage is the only class now that still has a "trade off" but I'd have to go back and read a bunch of patch notes to make sure.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello again,
Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.
Regards.

[katte nici.9483]

You never praise us when we behave.

[Moradorin.6217]

11 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

False positivity has always been the bane of success. There should be no credit given to someone who is supposed to do their job but have every right to be criticized for doing their job wrong. 

As far as the leak goes, the whole staff fiasco is just a small part of the clear bias towards Mesmer class, proof is more or less on the patch notes. What they call "buffs" is returning what they have taken, the most recent Mantra "un-work" proved to be the case that the multis don't align to the tooltips as well not return our old multipliers back, they nerfed mantras because there as no cast time, but now they just gave back the cast time without returning the stuff they nerfed. It's just like how they nerfed everything when we had 2 dodges but took away our dodge without buffing back anything when we had 2 dodges.

As far as returning the dodge to Mirage, it was spoken once nearly half a year ago and was never mentioned again. 

I don't understand how people can still blindly stand behind such negligence when the people whose JOB is to work on this game are not being held accountable. 

Yeah I mean that's I tend to mention professionalism, competence, objectivity, etc when I am critical of the balance team/CMC. Its because CMC is in charge and has made questionable statements about Mirage/Mesmer. So when Im trying trying to be objective but critical about what see as a very bad, seemingly lazy decision to just flat out remove one dodge from Mirage in 2 game modes I cannot find a way to express that without sounding critical and using words like lazy/half-assed cause bad doesnt really cover it.

That is, I objectively feel that the one dodge nerf was a poor choice that seemed to be done in haste to create a "quick fix" for Mirage balance in pvp/wvw without making any serious or significant changes to ambush output, IH cooldown, or anything else that has been suggested. Furthermore, in 3 years it has never been tweaked to at least make it more consistent between game modes or literally anything. Nothing at all has been done in 3 years for it.

I cannot help but call that lazy. For the 100th time let me be clear. Im not saying any person is lazy or no good. Im saying the balance choice to remove one dodge from Mirage in 2 of the 3 game modes and call it a day on Mirage balance IS A LAZY SOLUTION (not a person). The people on the dev team may or may not be lazy I have never met them so I would have no way to know what they are like. I can tell CMC likes water tho.

[Curunen.8729]

Now that vindicator has 2, I can't even make that argument so there is little reason mirage should still be skill split to 1 dodge in different game modes.

And the gimmick of desert distortion + signet of illusions should be changed. I'm apprehensive how bad new shatters would be such that it may be safer to say don't change anything, but I would rather get rid of this interaction to allow for:

- 2nd dodge return

- deception cooldown unnerfing (jaunt - 20s/charge, IA - 30s, StG 25s, MA - return target break and give evade frame like axe3)

- IH grandmaster minor trait (create new major and balance all mirage around clone ambushes).

 

Those three things are my top requested changes for functionality and fun - then address damage output, boons etc on that foundation.

And regarding mirrors, I still like them - but deception cooldowns ie jaunt need to be there to support, and a replacement GM major trait for IH (now minor) could be a mirror enhancement.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Curunen.8729

[Veprovina.4876]

40 minutes ago, Forum Moderator.3419 said:

Hello again,
Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.
Regards.

Well, thanks for not locking the thread and instead just pruning it for posts that might get it locked.

We appreciate that you let this thread go on. This thread and it's topic is important to us.

Would have been the easiest thing to just shut it down of thr first offense but you didn't so.

Thanks.

👍

Edited February 17, 2023 by Veprovina.4876

[Waffles.5632]

24 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

Now that vindicator has 2, I can't even make that argument so there is little reason mirage should still be skill split to 1 dodge in different game modes.

And the gimmick of desert distortion + signet of illusions should be changed. I'm apprehensive how bad new shatters would be such that it may be safer to say don't change anything, but I would rather get rid of this interaction to allow for:

- 2nd dodge return

- deception cooldown unnerfing (jaunt - 20s/charge, IA - 30s, StG 25s, MA - return target break and give evade frame like axe3)

- IH grandmaster minor trait (create new major and balance all mirage around clone ambushes).

 

Those three things are my top requested changes for functionality and fun - then address damage output, boons etc on that foundation.

And regarding mirrors, I still like them - but deception cooldowns ie jaunt need to be there to support, and a replacement GM major trait for IH (now minor) could be a mirror enhancement.

Literally this for me.

The only thing I would would want as well is 25% movement speed buff somewhere and that's it. Anet can put it on Nomad's Endurance or something lol.

[Gesbo.6420]

33 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

Literally this for me.

The only thing I would would want as well is 25% movement speed buff somewhere and that's it. Anet can put it on Nomad's Endurance or something lol.

good idea but they can not double up on traits, that would literally be Time Marches On. Speed of Sand however can be made base line part of the mirage cloak and have something actually added in its place but thats a whole different sotry.

[apharma.3741]

8 minutes ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

good idea but they can not double up on traits, that would literally be Time Marches On. Speed of Sand however can be made base line part of the mirage cloak and have something actually added in its place but thats a whole different sotry.

It depends on the role the spec is trying to fill, I believe it's envisioned as duellist/roamer so I don't think it really needs a passive movement speed. Taking a leaf out of daredevil and thief's book which it competes with, access to swiftness and some mobility tools.
If mirage cloak gave 10s swiftness that should be enough to stay mobile and with some effort jaunt, blink, mirage advance it could be a mobile spec.
Bonus if IH was folded in baseline, because balancing around having it or not having it is tricky, your clones would also get 10s swiftness helping both clone and shatter builds.
The interaction between desert distortion, signet of illusions and blurred inscriptions would have to go to make IH baseline but that opens up space to buff vigor traits throughout the mirage line and restore critical infusion in duelling.
All this is assuming they keep mirage cloak as it is, whether you like that or not.

[Waffles.5632]

My bias is this:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Righteous_Sprint

 

But I agree, 10sec swiftness sounds just as good too.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Waffles.5632

[Curunen.8729]

The only thing I'm not keen on with a perma speed buff is aesthetic - it's nice to have a variation fast and slow, whereas I find the perma 25% looks weird.

But certainly speed of sand should be part of mirage cloak as well - this makes room for IH in the GM minor slot.

Similarly with blurred frenzy - I still find it weird with the faster animation, maybe due to asura, like scepter ambush just looks like they've drunk a ton of coffee.