Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[Moradorin.6217]

18 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I never said anything about them fight each other just roaming potential. I more meant stealth nerfs which I did see they reversed some of them once they rebalanced some Shadow Arts(SA) traits. I going off the Thief forum so i guess i was mistaken if you say there are no nerfs to Thief.

My point still stands that Mesmer can be a good roamer and over all i see their popularity matched in Conquest PvP, most games have at least one Mesmer and one Thief. In terms of WvW I don't know, you would probably have a better idea about the popularity?

I stopped playing MIrage in wvw, when last I did the only thing that was working was to try and stack up allot 15-20 stacks of confusion at the key moment (when they have used up some skills and are not full health and about to try and agress u or heal/run) that can work, but even then iirc w very high condi at 15 stacks I would get maybe 5k on activate and that much confusion only lasts a few sec (2-3 sec at most I would guess). I have some old vid caps of doing it. Its not easy and its a short potential burst window and they have to fail to see that they have been hit with that much confusion which is technically on them.

[godfat.2604]

32 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean you answered your own question, Jaunt replaces most of what dodge should be. I mean that is how I see people us it in the 250 players in Conquest PvP. I'm not saying its ideal that Mirage has only one dodge but its not the end of the Elite.

I am not sure why you would compare Jaunt with dodges, you might actually want to compare it with Blink instead? Keep in mind the number of ammos for Jaunt is also different between PvE and competitive modes. 2 vs 3 (50% difference) is better than 1 vs 2 (100% difference) though, if we want to be fair.

No one is really saying it's the end of an elite, nor is it clear what is an end? This is jumping out from nowhere. You can still play it all you want. We're all just saying it's bad for a very long time already. Please pay attention to what people are actually saying.

38 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean I would prefer they remove the immune to stun element to the dodge and then bring 2 dodges back (mind you the burst damage is still pretty insane)

I do agree we shouldn't be able to use Mirage Cloak when stunned, but I guess there's some technical reasons that they never attempted to do this (it was suggested a million times before as well, even before 1 dodge nerf!). Do keep in mind I disagree to do this without bringing the 2nd dodge back first. Changes should always be considered in packages, otherwise it's just making things worse unnecessarily.

46 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Honestly I have seen high level players still use Mirage and in the right hands they can easily pick off players with a flurry of conditions and clones. If anything they do better in Zerg's since its really hard to find the right clone.

Again I don't comment on PvP, but you're so wrong about how useful a Mirage is in zerg... You clearly never played it or even understood what zerg vs zerg is playing. This will be my last time responding to you in this subject, because clearly we have to agree to disagree. I only responded this time because I wanted to point out how wrong this was.

It's very simple. Clones can't survive for even 200ms in a zerg fight (my average ping is 200~300, so I can't measure anything faster under 200ms), so yeah no one can find the right clone because there's 0 clones. Even if clones can survive, Mirage still does nothing, because conditions don't work in zerg fights either, due to the presence of Scrapper and now Tempest, no conditions can last for more than 1 second if played right. It's either cleansed immediately, or we died already due to power spike before conditions even tick the second time. Power Mirage, for sure doesn't work either. The damage is just way too low. Even Virtuoso doesn't do enough power damage. Virtuoso is viable, but not good. Mirage is completely useless.

I tried Mirage at release, which was 100% overpowered. Just imagine the PvE version, adding Elusive Mind being a stun break + condition cleanse. I smashed the keyboard to win a 1vs3 fight with ease, when I am not really good at roaming at all. This completely OP Mirage, I brought it to zerg, which then I still did completely nothing lol Can't hit anyone, and even if I hit anyone, I did pathetic damage, be conditions or power, all useless. There's no way Mirage can work in zerg unless we change the mechanism, which I don't expect to happen, nor does it need to.

[Tseison.4659]

20 minutes ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

With one dodge things like Vigor and energy regen become more vital to use, but also less effecive because of the half sized energy pool from only 1 dodge. The sigil still gives a full dodge of energy on swap, but things like energy regen from food stop sooner and do less because the bar is always full, then one you dodge you are gona swap if you can to instant refill then the food is wasted but if you had 2 dodges the food would still be filling up the 2nd dodge and adding benefit.

 

So the one dodge is more like giving scourge half life force in a sense I guess. or forcing a class w health regen healing to have half the health pool in pvp which would greatly reduce the benefit of that slow healing like the one dodge lowers the benefit of the regen food and also means that the sigil will fill your bar and make you lose out on regen during those ticks after swap until you dodge again and have used sigil only then would things like Vigor, energy food, natural energy regen even be of benefit to a mirage when you think about it.

Couldn't have said it better myself👍

It's as myself and others have mentioned, if they're gonna reduce the Mirage to one dodge, there needs to be compensation via traits that help restore energy just as the Vindicator. Only real reason why we have the one dodge is people complaining about getting stomped while the Mirage is immune, well to everyone out there, it's 2022, check the other professions and see who else are capable of doing the same thing. 

 

Yes when we did have 2 dodges in PvP/WvW, it was great to be able to disengage and engage via sword, but once again, there are other professions who can do the exact same thing if not better. 

Speaking in WvW, I don't see as many Mirages and don't really see a point as the one dodge isn't going to save you even if you have Sigil of Energy and Rune of Adventure, the one dodge is just too crippling that even when used appropriately, you'll still be wide open because in the end, having two dodges as WE ALL should have since we've been conditioned and have had it for 10 YEARS! Makes no sense to suddenly "try something new" and bringing in one dodge that barely has any impact now. The dodge mechanic should never have been touched period.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

A big part of what ruined pve for me as Mirage was the way that one dodge forced Mirage to play played totally differently and to think about dodge differently and timing and well everything that makes what I feel dictates a play style got split into 2 different things. That ruined it for me I was die hard about a year, but after the auto attack and other damage nerfs post 1 dodge I just retired me Mesmer and went to Necro, Engi and Ranger for my multi-mode wvw/pvp/pve play which is what I still play with maybe a little Rev or guard once in a while, but not mesmer because of the strange 1 dodge one mode and 2 dodge in other mode.

I mean when I tried it in WvW I didn't play it any different, dodging for damage and not for avoiding mechanics; Jaunt is for dodging. This is how played Mirage in all PvE end-game content, I normally saved my Jaunt and not my dodge.

I think the real problem here is people are trying to play Mirage like they did back before the one dodge nerf. My whole point is there is not much different in the rotation and people who claim one dodge is a nerf to energy gain is wrong.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

42 minutes ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Couldn't have said it better myself👍

It's as myself and others have mentioned, if they're gonna reduce the Mirage to one dodge, there needs to be compensation via traits that help restore energy just as the Vindicator. Only real reason why we have the one dodge is people complaining about getting stomped while the Mirage is immune, well to everyone out there, it's 2022, check the other professions and see who else are capable of doing the same thing. 

 

Yes when we did have 2 dodges in PvP/WvW, it was great to be able to disengage and engage via sword, but once again, there are other professions who can do the exact same thing if not better. 

Speaking in WvW, I don't see as many Mirages and don't really see a point as the one dodge isn't going to save you even if you have Sigil of Energy and Rune of Adventure, the one dodge is just too crippling that even when used appropriately, you'll still be wide open because in the end, having two dodges as WE ALL should have since we've been conditioned and have had it for 10 YEARS! Makes no sense to suddenly "try something new" and bringing in one dodge that barely has any impact now. The dodge mechanic should never have been touched period.

Try something new? It’s been over two years now with one dodge and it isn’t that hard to figure out.  It’s one dodge, not two. It’s not rocket science lol.

 

Are two dodges better? Yes. Is it impossible to play with one dodge like you’re making it seem? Far from. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

4 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I mean when I tried it in WvW I didn't play it any different, dodging for damage and not for avoiding mechanics; Jaunt is for dodging. This is how played Mirage in all PvE end-game content, I normally saved my Jaunt and not my dodge.

I think the real problem here is people are trying to play Mirage like they did back before the one dodge nerf. My whole point is there is not much different in the rotation and people who claim one dodge is a nerf to energy gain is wrong.

Jaunt is not for dodging there is no evade there is no iframe. Essentially they took a normal dodge and split it into 2 things, the dodge and the distance and shipping it into 2 whole new things.

Even before the 1 dodge nerf, other classes had more ways to avoid/mitigate damage then mirage ever did. This includes : block, invulnerable, evade, reducing damage to zero for a duration, reflect etc. 

People are so hyper focused on Mirage cloak that they seem to forget that if they remove the evade on stun mirage will always be chopping block for any AoE (thus jaunt is the distance that was removed from a normal dodge), normal dodges are not as hindered by things like root/chill compared to Mirage cloak.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Try something new? It’s been over two years now with one dodge and it isn’t that hard to figure out.  It’s one dodge, not two. It’s not rocket science lol.

 

Are two dodges better? Yes. Is it impossible to play with one dodge like you’re making it seem? Far from. 

Its not about the one dodge or 2 dodge its the fact that they massively nerfed Mirage when it had 2 dodges, then removing the dodge while keeping everything else nerfed. 

Vindicator was made and designed on one dodge, Mirage was not. Its as simple as that.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

They nerfed the dodge as it was too overstacked in competitive play when what they should have done was nerf the Ambush skills in some sort of way. Like you gain an Ambush once every 10s if you dodge.

Whats more is that they did the one dodge thing because they couldn't figure out how to nerf it properly. Well, its been a while so... Any new ideas Anet?

[Mell.4873]

26 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They nerfed the dodge as it was too overstacked in competitive play when what they should have done was nerf the Ambush skills in some sort of way. Like you gain an Ambush once every 10s if you dodge.

Whats more is that they did the one dodge thing because they couldn't figure out how to nerf it properly. Well, its been a while so... Any new ideas Anet?

I could see that being a great fix but Mirage is in some sense a burst style elite rather the more sustain we see with Untamed the other Ambush specialization.

40 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Jaunt is not for dodging there is no evade there is no iframe. Essentially they took a normal dodge and split it into 2 things, the dodge and the distance and shipping it into 2 whole new things.

Even before the 1 dodge nerf, other classes had more ways to avoid/mitigate damage then mirage ever did. This includes : block, invulnerable, evade, reducing damage to zero for a duration, reflect etc. 

People are so hyper focused on Mirage cloak that they seem to forget that if they remove the evade on stun mirage will always be chopping block for any AoE (thus jaunt is the distance that was removed from a normal dodge), normal dodges are not as hindered by things like root/chill compared to Mirage cloak.

Who cares you can use it while stunned and it can let you avoid mechanics (just not dodge them). Mirage does have other dodges skills so the lack of dodge frames should not be a problem. The main problem is you cant play a tank/bunker as Mirage like before.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

45 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I could see that being a great fix but Mirage is in some sense a burst style elite rather the more sustain we see with Untamed the other Ambush specialization.

 

As a salty warrior player I'm pretty aware that there have been unfair nerfs that could have been done better. The one dodge Mirage is one of those nerfs. It seems like they found their solution with Untamed's version of Ambush skills, which makes it perplexing that it hasn't been ported over to Mirage.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I could see that being a great fix but Mirage is in some sense a burst style elite rather the more sustain we see with Untamed the other Ambush specialization.

Who cares you can use it while stunned and it can let you avoid mechanics (just not dodge them). Mirage does have other dodges skills so the lack of dodge frames should not be a problem. The main problem is you cant play a tank/bunker as Mirage like before.

What...? You mean movement skills that every class has....? You make it sound like Jaunt is something new and exclusive to Mirage only. 

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

What...? You mean movement skills that every class has....? You make it sound like Jaunt is something new and exclusive to Mirage only. 

Most movement skills cant be used while stunned, I guess all the shadow steps can. Is it anything without a cast time?

[Mell.4873]

I will conclude any point I'm making here:

• I would love the second dodge back but I'm hesitant to suggest it because I believe it will break Conquest PvP even more that is already is (right now is about 1-2 Mesmer's per game)
• WvW is an anomaly in itself where supportive classes dominate Zergs and Dueling classes like Mesmer dominate Roaming.
• The lack of a second dodge does not impact energy (dodge bar) regeneration, the energy sigil is the exception.
• I highly doubt they will ever return the second dodge so we will never see a bunker Mirage like we have in PvE (that's not really how you play Mirage anyway)

Edited September 1, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Tseison.4659]

10 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Try something new? It’s been over two years now with one dodge and it isn’t that hard to figure out.  It’s one dodge, not two. It’s not rocket science lol.

 

Are two dodges better? Yes. Is it impossible to play with one dodge like you’re making it seem? Far from. 

It’s definitely not impossible to play because well, it clearly is in game and still around lol but is it going to save you in PvP/WvW situations, either roaming, small groups or in a zerg, highly unlikely. Unless you know, you’re Vindicator whose kit is literally built around one dodge or all you do is disengage and rely on weak damage/conditions in a world where boons, evades and cleanses rules all. 🤷‍♀️

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Tseison.4659 said:

It’s definitely not impossible to play because well, it clearly is in game and still around lol but is it going to save you in PvP/WvW situations, either roaming, small groups or in a zerg, highly unlikely. Unless you know, you’re Vindicator whose kit is literally built around one dodge or all you do is disengage and rely on weak damage/conditions in a world where boons, evades and cleanses rules all. 🤷‍♀️

I see plenty of people post Mirage Roaming compilations. Vullan just did one a month ago and it was his only new Mesmer video for months.

I think the main misconception and this goes for Mesmer in general, is up is down and down is up. Everything a Mesmer can do it backwards, you want to use the dodge purely for Ambushes and you want to use your utilities for dodging like I have been saying the whole time.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

6 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

It’s definitely not impossible to play because well, it clearly is in game and still around lol but is it going to save you in PvP/WvW situations, either roaming, small groups or in a zerg, highly unlikely. Unless you know, you’re Vindicator whose kit is literally built around one dodge or all you do is disengage and rely on weak damage/conditions in a world where boons, evades and cleanses rules all. 🤷‍♀️

Is what going to save you? Your dodge? Yes if you use it correctly and not just spam it. Mirage works very well as a roamer. 

[JazzXman.7018]

need for sure second dodge back esp for increased skill ceiling/cap reasons. nerf/ rework the correct stuff instead so giving the dodge back doesnt become a big buff

[Moradorin.6217]

19 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Try something new? It’s been over two years now with one dodge and it isn’t that hard to figure out.  It’s one dodge, not two. It’s not rocket science lol.

 

Are two dodges better? Yes. Is it impossible to play with one dodge like you’re making it seem? Far from. 

I dont think anyone is saying they cant figure out one dodge. I dont see anyone saying that or implying that. That seems like a way to misdirect attention away from what is being said without adding anything to the topic.

 

He was agreeing with me. I was saying that one dodge was harder play in wvw and less effective, made less use of things like vigor, but ultimately what ruined the class after the one dodge change was the way you get 2 dodges in pve and the spec is mostly geared and balanced for that then you get one dodge for a simple nerf method that I dont anyone has ever made a coherent argument in favor of beyong claiming Mirage was broken anyway, therefore, so what. Which IMO is not a valid supporting argument for the change in any way.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Are you honestly unable to see what I was directly replying to? Do I need to directly quote it for you to figure it out?

I don't think anyone is saying that one dodge isn't harder. That isn't a big brained take right there. 

Lets be real for 2 seconds. Most people here complaining about 1 dodge being a problem have never seen above Silver ranking. Their problem isn't having 1 dodge. Their problem is not understanding the fundamentals in competitive game modes and one dodge is their scapegoat. Give them 2 dodges and they are still bad at pvp. 

 

There are plenty of people who play Mirage in Gold and Plat, When you play Mirage in Conquest PvP you have to play burst and try and complete your rotation while weaving the dodge(Ambush) to its maximum potential. The only build you cant play is a bunker style Mirage (well it doesn't stop people from trying).

The game play reminds me of specter since it is very much a hit and run style of play.

[Moradorin.6217]

2 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Are you honestly unable to see what I was directly replying to? Do I need to directly quote it for you to figure it out?

I don't think anyone is saying that one dodge isn't harder. That isn't a big brained take right there. 

Lets be real for 2 seconds. Most people here complaining about 1 dodge being a problem have never seen above Silver ranking. Their problem isn't having 1 dodge. Their problem is not understanding the fundamentals in competitive game modes and one dodge is their scapegoat. Give them 2 dodges and they are still bad at pvp. 

 

My point was clearly about the tone of your posts and the way that you seem to use language that, in my view, seeks to belittle the person you are responding to more than actually adding to the conversation.

 

None of the people you responded to have been talking about ranked for instance, or ranking/rateing. Then you claim no one here is above silver which is an obvious attempt to randomly insult anyone posting here. Well what about JazzXman just to point to a single player I think any reasonable person would say is skilled with one dodge or two.

 

Also Since you bring up ranked pvp, can you honestly say that ranked pvp and wvw are in a better place in 2022 vs 2018 pre one dodge nerf? I dont think so....

 

not skilled??? https://www.youtube.com/c/JazzmanX

Edited September 1, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Salt Mode.3780]

14 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

There are plenty of people who play Mirage in Gold and Plat, When you play Mirage in Conquest PvP you have to play burst and try and complete your rotation while weaving the dodge(Ambush) to its maximum potential. The only build you cant play is a bunker style Mirage (well it doesn't stop people from trying).

The game play reminds me of specter since it is very much a hit and run style of play.

I dont know where your matches are coming or if you are playing against the same 3 people but even in "pro" play most MESMER mains either quit or re-rolled. 

If you are going by sPvP standards that is a very small pool of people because there is already a small pool of people that still plays sPvP. If you go by WvW the numbers are even lower, I can be roaming for 2-3 hrs and only find 1 Mesmer to kill.

[Mell.4873]

10 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I dont know where your matches are coming or if you are playing against the same 3 people but even in "pro" play most MESMER mains either quit or re-rolled. 

If you are going by sPvP standards that is a very small pool of people because there is already a small pool of people that still plays sPvP. If you go by WvW the numbers are even lower, I can be roaming for 2-3 hrs and only find 1 Mesmer to kill.

I cant comment on WvW just sPvP, all I'm really saying is I see people play Mirage in Gold and Plat. I guess US servers so maybe EU has zero.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

10 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

My point was clearly about the tone of your posts and the way that you seem to use language that, in my view, seeks to belittle the person you are responding to more than actually adding to the conversation.

 

None of the people you responded to have been talking about ranked for instance, or ranking/rateing. Then you claim no one here is above silver which is an obvious attempt to randomly insult anyone posting here. Well what about JazzXman just to point to a single player I think any reasonable person would say is skilled with one dodge or two.

 

Also Since you bring up ranked pvp, can you honestly say that ranked pvp and wvw are in a better place in 2022 vs 2018 pre one dodge nerf? I dont think so....

 

not skilled??? https://www.youtube.com/c/JazzmanX

"Then you claim no one here is above silver" - would love for you to quote me where I said this.

 

What about JazzXman? I know exactly who he is. His take has been the best so far. 

 

This might sound wild to you, I can understand the problematic nature of one dodge. I can also want two dodges. But I can also call someone out for saying that Mirage is a bad roamer.  I can call someone out for saying that it's too hard to adapt to and that it's a new change when it's been over two years. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Ronald McDonald.8165

[Moradorin.6217]

5 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

"Then you claim no one here is above silver" - would love for you to quote me where I said this.

 

What about JazzXman? I know exactly who he is. His take has been the best so far. 

 

This might sound wild to you, I can understand the problematic nature of one dodge. I can also want two dodges. But I can also call someone out for saying that Mirage is a bad roamer.  I can call someone out for saying that it's too hard to adapt to and that it's a new change when it's been over two years. 

 

 

 

 

Players talking about the split mode nature of Mirage, in which it has one dodge in 2 modes and 2 dodges in the 3rd mode, are not saying they cannot adapt. They are saying its kittened up and forces the player to basically readjust things like muscle memory each time they change modes. I personally stoped playing Mirage not because I couldnt adapt I switched because it was horrible to retrain my actions and thinking about play when depending if I was in 1 dodge only game mode or two. I used to like to do pve and que up for pvp then do a match, for instance. That kinda thing, for many people, makes the class suck because you are playing with 2 dodges then que and ohh kitten I only have 1 dodge and now its like a new class.

I personally dont feel like you are adding anything to this topic. You are only attempting to derail it because you dont what is says.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

6 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

Players talking about the split mode nature of Mirage, in which it has one dodge in 2 modes and 2 dodges in the 3rd mode, are not saying they cannot adapt. They are saying its kittened up and forces the player to basically readjust things like muscle memory each time they change modes. I personally stoped playing Mirage not because I couldnt adapt I switched because it was horrible to retrain my actions and thinking about play when depending if I was in 1 dodge only game mode or two. I used to like to do pve and que up for pvp then do a match, for instance. That kinda thing, for many people, makes the class suck because you are playing with 2 dodges then que and ohh kitten I only have 1 dodge and now its like a new class.

I personally dont feel like you are adding anything to this topic. You are only attempting to derail it because you dont what is says.

Readjust muscle memory every time they change game modes? So are people using the exact same builds with every game mode? Are people able to adapt to that? But somehow taking .1 seconds to look at your endurance bar is too much? Please. I refuse to believe everyone here has lost all neuroplasticity.

 

Are you unable to play more than one class and one build? Crazy how Revenant players are able to make sense of it. 

 

"You are only attempting to derail it because you dont what is says." What?

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by Ronald McDonald.8165