Return our second dodge and fix mesmers!

[godfat.2604]

10 hours ago, Josh Davis.7865 said:

We’ve added an additional balance update to our schedule for November 29, and with this update we’re aiming to get back to having our major balance updates include changes for all game modes, rather than a focus on a single area.

Will we finally normalize the number of dodges?

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, godfat.2604 said:

Will we finally normalize the number of dodges?

As much as many people would like this sadly it will never happen. The release of Vindicator is the nail to the coffin that they will never restore Mirage with 2 dodges. We can only hope that they revert many of the nerfs they did on Mirage when it had 2 dodges to bring back some of the power back.

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

As much as many people would like this sadly it will never happen. The release of Vindicator is the nail to the coffin that they will never restore Mirage with 2 dodges. We can only hope that they revert many of the nerfs they did on Mirage when it had 2 dodges to bring back some of the power back.

I will say I dont expect any miracles from Anet. I dont expect them admit mistakes in any specific or real sense so I dont think you may be right about one dodge. However, I dont think you are correct that Vindicator proves 1 dodge Mirage is fine, because Vindicator was build around one dodge and has ways to gain the ability to refill its dodge fuel if you will that compensates the spec. Mirage doesnt. You can claim Mirrors cover that but they really dont. At least in the sense that it was all designed with 2 dodges in mind and was never redesigned for one, it just had one removed. So I 100% disagree with the premis that Vindicator somehow Vindicates the one dodge nerf. I dont think it does at all. I think it shows that one dodge could work is the class is designed around it, which again Mirage is not.

 

Also Vindicator doesnt have the strange split mode functionality that for me breaks any desire to use the class unless I actually need its utility (portal, feedback, confusion damage). Again, Vindicator doesnt have to keep remembering which mode they are in and if they have one dodge or 2 on a full bar each time they perform a task. One dodge in PvP/WvW 2 in PvE is broken kitten kitten it sucks, It needs to be fixed, Vindicator just shows how bad Mirage was done in.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Salt Mode.3780]

14 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

I will say I dont expect any miracles from Anet. I dont expect them admit mistakes in any specific or real sense so I dont think you may be right about one dodge. However, I dont think you are correct that Vindicator proves 1 dodge Mirage is fine, because Vindicator was build around one dodge and has ways to gain the ability to refill its dodge fuel if you will that compensates the spec.

Again what I said and stated might have confused many people as my previous posts said that Mirage was not made for 1 dodge, however the release of Vindicator would be the reason why Mirage will only have 1 dodge. Back before Vindicator was released Mirage is the only spec that had one dodge which one can argue that it shouldn't be like this because everyone has 2 dodges, with vindicator release it solidified the mind set that classes can have one dodge. However if they continue with the route then i do hope they buff Mirage or revert many of the nerfs it had received. 

[Moradorin.6217]

Double posted

Edited September 11, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

13 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again what I said and stated might have confused many people as my previous posts said that Mirage was not made for 1 dodge, however the release of Vindicator would be the reason why Mirage will only have 1 dodge. Back before Vindicator was released Mirage is the only spec that had one dodge which one can argue that it shouldn't be like this because everyone has 2 dodges, with vindicator release it solidified the mind set that classes can have one dodge. However if they continue with the route then i do hope they buff Mirage or revert many of the nerfs it had received. 

In response I will again say: 

On 9/10/2022 at 3:11 AM, Moradorin.6217 said:

I dont think you are correct that Vindicator proves 1 dodge Mirage is fine, because Vindicator was build around one dodge and has ways to gain the ability to refill its dodge fuel, if you will, that compensates the spec. Mirage doesnt. You can claim Mirrors cover that but they really dont. At least in the sense that it was all designed with 2 dodges in mind and was never redesigned for one, it just had one removed. So I 100% disagree with the premis that Vindicator somehow Vindicates the one dodge nerf. I dont think it does at all. I think it shows that one dodge could work is the class is designed around it, which again Mirage is not.

 

Also Vindicator doesnt have the strange split mode functionality that for me breaks any desire to use the class unless I actually need its utility (portal, feedback, confusion damage). Again, Vindicator doesnt have to keep remembering which mode they are in and if they have one dodge or 2 on a full bar each time they perform a task. One dodge in PvP/WvW 2 in PvE is broken kitten kitten it sucks, It needs to be fixed, Vindicator just shows how bad Mirage was done in.

In other words, no Vindicator was made for one dodge and works. Mirage was not made for one dodge and it would require Mirage be changed to a new espec to rework it into a One dodge class that functions like VIndicator. So your assertion is baseless at worst and flawed at best.

 

Building a new spec that is designed to work with one dodge from the ground up like Vindicator is nothing at all relatable to a spec designed for 2 dodges that then just gets one removed. Cause op. Yea sorry I see no actual logic in that reasoning.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

2 hours ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

In response I will again say: 

In other words, no Vindicator was made for one dodge and works. Mirage was not made for one dodge and it would require Mirage be changed to a new espec to rework it into a One dodge class that functions like VIndicator. So your assertion is baseless at worst and flawed at best.

 

Building a new spec that is designed to work with one dodge from the ground up like Vindicator is nothing at all relatable to a spec designed for 2 dodges that then just gets one removed. Cause op. Yea sorry I see no actual logic in that reasoning.

But think of the muscle memory of all Rev players.  No way they could ever adapt. It’s insanity to expect them to. 

[Veprovina.4876]

16 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again what I said and stated might have confused many people as my previous posts said that Mirage was not made for 1 dodge, however the release of Vindicator would be the reason why Mirage will only have 1 dodge. Back before Vindicator was released Mirage is the only spec that had one dodge which one can argue that it shouldn't be like this because everyone has 2 dodges, with vindicator release it solidified the mind set that classes can have one dodge. However if they continue with the route then i do hope they buff Mirage or revert many of the nerfs it had received. 

Mirage is still the only profession that has different mechanics from one game mode to the other.

Cause mirage cloak in PvE is not the same, nor do you use it the same as in WvW.

It's janky as all hell and if they really do want to keep the one dodge, fine, make it one dodge in PvE as well, give us tons of synergyes between traits that we can keep up vigor, have a refill stamina F5 button like vindicator has, and have an extra mechanic that you get stamina after a block or invuln from distortion.

 

Then we'll talk.

[Moradorin.6217]

3 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Mirage is still the only profession that has different mechanics from one game mode to the other.

Cause mirage cloak in PvE is not the same, nor do you use it the same as in WvW.

It's janky as all hell and if they really do want to keep the one dodge, fine, make it one dodge in PvE as well, give us tons of synergyes between traits that we can keep up vigor, have a refill stamina F5 button like vindicator has, and have an extra mechanic that you get stamina after a block or invuln from distortion.

 

Then we'll talk.

Pretty much. I would have to agree.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again in the past is there a reason for ANET's nerf or decisions? The answer is simply no. I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who saw CMC laugh at the thought of mirage one dodge, and I'm pretty sure now that he is the lead of the balance team that it is going to stay that way. 

There is no point of hopium of getting 2 dodge back and its simply because their logic of yes classes can have one dodge so we will just let mirage stay that way.

I'm pretty sure I've made several posts advocating why mirage should have 2 dodges but the announcement of CMC being lead of balance completely crushed all hopes of that. So rather then asking for something impossible, I'm asking for reverts to nerfs when we had 2 dodges.

[Mell.4873]

On 9/10/2022 at 9:18 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

As much as many people would like this sadly it will never happen. The release of Vindicator is the nail to the coffin that they will never restore Mirage with 2 dodges. We can only hope that they revert many of the nerfs they did on Mirage when it had 2 dodges to bring back some of the power back.

I could get on board with that. At least add some more survivability to compensate.

13 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Mirage is still the only profession that has different mechanics from one game mode to the other.

Cause mirage cloak in PvE is not the same, nor do you use it the same as in WvW.

It's janky as all hell and if they really do want to keep the one dodge, fine, make it one dodge in PvE as well, give us tons of synergyes between traits that we can keep up vigor, have a refill stamina F5 button like vindicator has, and have an extra mechanic that you get stamina after a block or invuln from distortion.

I don't know anyone who uses the Mirage Dodge to dodge. Its solely used to trigger Ambush's, and after your first dodge you can maintain the same number of dodges without a problem. You just don't have a store of them to do a crazy burst which was the original problem, I would agree that a rework of traits to accommodate the lack of second dodge would help.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Yoci.2481]

They gave more power to cmc. Unless he recently had some kind of epic epiphany that doesn't make me feel optimistic at all.

[Kuma.1503]

Catalyst is too busy defining to meta to appear on some flimsy chart. 

[Moradorin.6217]

On 9/11/2022 at 11:58 PM, Yoci.2481 said:

They gave more power to cmc. Unless he recently had some kind of epic epiphany that doesn't make me feel optimistic at all.

I feel the same way.

 

As for those who assert that Vindicator Vindicates the one dodge change for Mirage, I would just repeat that taking a spec build for 2 dodges and removing a dodge is not nearly as good or equivalent to making a class that is built around the idea of operating normally with one dodge. However, even then Vindicator arguably doesn't Vindicate one dodge Mirage according to these kinds of player views: https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/xdfpem/spreading_some_vindicator_love/

 

Just saying, Im not expecting anyone at Anet to admit it was a bad idea, although, I do hope they see that to return the other dodge in pvp/wvw its the only sensible way to begin to fix Mirage. Similarly, the only way to fix core Mesmer is to tweak core skills and traits. Also that Vindicator isn't that good in its own right, so how the hell does is show that one dodge Mirage was ok?? That is so hilarious to me. 🤣😂🥲

 

If one dodge Mirage is good and here to stay than I would prefer Mirage had one dodge in pve, pvp and wvw (all 3 modes) more like Vindicator so that at least it doesn't have split mode strangeness on top of being different than all the others in that sense. It makes Mirage far worse as one dodge vs Vind.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[godfat.2604]

I do not mean to endorse Solar and they're no longer with Anet, however even they said that they didn't agree with one dodge Vindicator, a few days ago on Snow Crows Help Desk discord, #free-for-all channel. Unfortunately, all their messages were deleted (no surprise), and I didn't bother to take screenshots for evidences. What they said were something along with:

* Did not agree with one dodge because too many core designs were with 2 dodges in mind
* If they were designing Vindicator's dodge, they would make them regular dodge with just a different animation, and add effects after dodging (existing mechanism)

I do not want to get off-topic, but Vindicator with one dodge is also very cumbersome from my experience, sharing some of the similar issues with 1 dodge Mirage, even when there are things to compensate Vindicator for this shortcoming. If anything, I expect Anet reworks Vindicator to give it 2 dodges and rework traits around that. I don't think this is a high priority because there are too many more important things to fix first, but at some point I think they need to rework that.

[godfat.2604]

On 9/14/2022 at 3:36 PM, godfat.2604 said:

If anything, I expect Anet reworks Vindicator to give it 2 dodges

I heard that it happened from the stream. That was faster than I thought. Now heading to sleep, looking forward to full preview when I get up. Finger crossed for Mirage.

[phokus.8934]

2 minutes ago, godfat.2604 said:

I heard that it happened from the stream. That was faster than I thought. Now heading to sleep, looking forward to full preview when I get up. Finger crossed for Mirage.

They said Mirage will get its second doge back but not for this update.  They're working through some things internally apparently.

[godfat.2604]

Ok, works for me…

[Moradorin.6217]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:00 PM, phokus.8934 said:

They said Mirage will get its second doge back but not for this update.  They're working through some things internally apparently.

I sure hope that's true. I have kinda lost faith in them tbh.

[Moradorin.6217]

Up again pls.

[AshkyLicious.4729]

👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼👆🏼

[Nezekan.2671]

Might come back to playing the game if we get the 2nd dodge. At least for a while.

Although some traits in Mirage need a look too.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Veprovina.4876]

Come on Anet, return the second mirage dodge in WvW, it's not gonna be the end of the world, I really fail to see why there needs to be a  entire drama about reverting an undeserved nerf that it needs to take this long.

Stop pretending one overnerfed espec is gonna break the game, especially since you let things like Firebrand and Mechanist happen for so long that most people don't even question it anymore.

[Moradorin.6217]

👆☝️🤔👆

[Mell.4873]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:19 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Come on Anet, return the second mirage dodge in WvW, it's not gonna be the end of the world, I really fail to see why there needs to be a  entire drama about reverting an undeserved nerf that it needs to take this long.

Stop pretending one overnerfed espec is gonna break the game, especially since you let things like Firebrand and Mechanist happen for so long that most people don't even question it anymore.

I'm pretty sure they will but they are taking their sweet time.

I mean right now the main selling point of Virtuoso is that it can go immune to damage for 10 seconds. I don't see how this is any different to a Mirage dodge, maybe only that the Ambush damage is too high with two dodges.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Mell.4873