Alliances are a waste of time and resources

[Zyreva.1078]

19 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I agree though, making the mode fun is a priority. Balancing sides is a step in that direction.

It is questionable if alliances will be able to achieve that tho. Time zone imbalance is likely going to stay unadressed and in general player activity can be highly volatile and even in an on paper (= based on average player activity over a certain time period) perfectly balanced match there will be inevitable imbalance. So are alliances really going to improve player experience that much that it is ok to completely disregard everything else that makes the game mode less fun right now (and i'm not talking about rewards here, mind you)?

Especially when considering that population balance used to be worse, and yet WvW was not only more populated but also more fun for many (after all fun was literally the only reason to play the game mode, other rewards were non existent).

Edited August 13, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[enkidu.5937]

Simply transferring the WvW rewards to EotM would create a similar experience as that alliance thing that they invest so much into for years now 😝

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

It is questionable if alliances will be able to achieve that tho. Time zone imbalance is likely going to stay unadressed and in general player activity can be highly volatile and even in an on paper (= based on average player activity over a certain time period) perfectly balanced match there will be inevitable imbalance. So are alliances really going to improve player experience that much that it is ok to completely disregard everything else that makes the game mode less fun right now (and i'm not talking about rewards here, mind you)?

 

I'll take questionable chance at better balance over no chance any day. The alternative is to merge more and more servers until the mode is completely dead down the road.

The betas so far where far less loop-sided on most servers and more evened out than any regular match-up in years. That's with the bare minimum of the new match-up system and not even alliances in place or sophisticated analytics. Now if the developers decide to expand on the matchmaking possibilities and algorithms, that is up to them and would actually be able to tackle time zone differences (if this effort is made). Something impossible under the server system as is now.

It's not hard to understand that balancing and matching many smaller pieces is far easier and more even than balancing a few large ones.

 

Quote

Especially when considering that population balance used to be worse, and yet WvW was not only more populated but also more fun for many (after all fun was literally the only reason to play the game mode, other rewards were non existent).

 

Population balance was worse but the class balance was different. The current direction of balance, which primarily favors the larger side, is also to blame for this development. I doubt though we will see a change in balance as mentioned so unless one favors the "let the biggest boonball win or else karma train", I'd say players should have a vested interested in shacking this up.

Let's also not forget that NA and EU are very different in that regard with EU being on the healthier side and a few years behind of where NA is at. Want to see where the current system gets you? Look at NA WvW.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[daveouk.6320]

ALliance beta - dont like 

 

Its like more people to put arrow carts in towers  and camp said tower, id rather play on my server with no link and struggle and not have a full squad with 30 peeps not  on voice with this  alliance bs... This  alliance thing only favours the huge organised groups that can W key a random group of pugs. 8 years in development though, hope that guy on his lunch break got paid well.

[Laurencius.9258]

I'm sad Anet has completely ruined WvW.

[Kozumi.5816]

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You mean the gvg players which already left for EotM? You can hate all you want on gvg, those guilds are not the issue any more. What you are left with is blob guilds on border most of the time.

No I mean the boon blob guilds that Anet designs WvW for.

[jul.7602]

I'm going to come out and say that we will almost certainly not get alliances before 2024. So basically 4+ years of developer resources will be put into a 'solution' that probably wont meaningfully improve or address any of the issues of WvW.

[Cyninja.2954]

22 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

No I mean the boon blob guilds that Anet designs WvW for.

 

Sure, but you'd have to understand that those guilds have nothing to do with gvg or gvg focused guilds.

 

Most gvg guilds used to run with 15-20 people max in the olden days (to keep the roster lean and not have to bench to many players when doing organized 15v15 gvg) and that remains true to this day as far as I know. Most current large border builds start at 20-25+.

 

Either way, in that case you'd have to desire alliances even more, have the blob guilds face each other by pairing of similar stats and guilds/alliances.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I'll take questionable chance at better balance over no chance any day. The alternative is to merge more and more servers until the mode is completely dead down the road.

But is it really population imbalance which makes players quit? And who knows if alliances will actually stop the drain on the long run? Not saying doing nothing is better, but is that really the only alternative?

Quote

The betas so far where far less loop-sided on most servers and more evened out than any regular match-up in years. That's with the bare minimum of the new match-up system and not even alliances in place or sophisticated analytics. Now if the developers decide to expand on the matchmaking possibilities and algorithms, that is up to them and would actually be able to tackle time zone differences (if this effort is made). Something impossible under the server system as is now.

It's not hard to understand that balancing and matching many smaller pieces is far easier and more even than balancing a few large ones.

Oh, i don't deny that alliances will make matches more balanced scorewise. I just question the effect of that balance on actual gameplay. Because those who get run over during night times won't care that their server is dominating during the mornig and vice versa. The randoms that get farmed by an organised blob won't care that "numbers are even". Those that lose a keep they are trying to defend vs superior numbers won't care that they have a zerg pvdooring elsewhere. I won't care, because as a small scale player who doesn't care about the score, current population (im)balance does not really affect me. And so on. Certain imbalance is inevitable in an "open" game mode like WvW and it's situations like those that affect player experience the most, not whether the score is close at the end.

Quote

Population balance was worse but the class balance was different. The current direction of balance, which primarily favors the larger side, is also to blame for this development. I doubt though we will see a change in balance as mentioned so unless one favors the "let the biggest boonball win or else karma train",

That's kinda my point. Population imbalance (which again is inevitable to some extent) is not a big problem, if players are having fun despite it. And while i agree that (combat) balance and design is very unlikely to improve, i think it should be a more important focus.

I wish alliances are going to be the saving grace, i just don't see it happening. Not if the multitude of other problems keep getting ignored, or ... looking at PvE changes ... made worse.

Edited August 13, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Riba.3271]

3 hours ago, daveouk.6320 said:

. This  alliance thing only favours the huge organised groups that can W key a random group of pugs.

It is true large organised groups are very strong but linking system was even worse than this. Since guilds and bandvagoners left big servers to smaller servers, the big servers couldn't fit any guilds, only pugs. So some servers (no pve pop) had only experienced players and no pugs whereas others (large pve pop) had only pugs and no space for guilds. Now allianceless pugs are somewhat equally split.

 

3 hours ago, daveouk.6320 said:

id rather play on my server with no link

+1, linkless servers is the way to go. Yes some servers will be less populated but at least they would face similarly populated servers and it wouldn't be transfer fiesta every 2 months.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Riba.3271

[Zzik.5873]

Wvw should just be remove/rework into matchmaking 50 vs 50 pvp or 75 vs 75.

The core design of wvw is flaw.

[Xenesis.6389]

20 minutes ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

Wvw should just be remove/rework into matchmaking 50 vs 50 pvp or 75 vs 75.

The core design of wvw is flaw.

Why don't you just go over to the spvp forums and make that suggestion?

Better yet go to the general forums and ask for battlegrounds, content doesn't need to be "removed" just because you want something else entirely different.

[pcgamefreak.5208]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:19 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Alliances are pointless as long as the game mode keeps its current terrible balance and lack of rewards.

 

Agree.  Somebody with some sense.

 

The mode is a Blob Fest Mess and it's due to poor development decisions and classes not being balanced.  You have classes pretty much untouchable with a ton of Boons, Invulnerability, Immunity, etc and you have other classes that have none of that like the Necro class, especially Core.  Can Core Necro get 10+ seconds of stability please, so we don't get pulled to death everytime?  Core doesn't have Boons like Stability, Regeneration, Resistance, Immunity, Invulnerability and the "Devs" won't even provide stability while in Shroud (Core)....  Where's the balance?  I see Necro being slaughtered all the time now in WvW and it's because the class is the worst, which is because it doesn't generate 10+ meaningful Boons at encounter start.  You want us to steal or corrupt Boons with marks?  How?  Too many are running around with Immunity and Invulnerability, not to mention all the other self generated Boons and if they get shared Boons to create stacks, forget about.

 

Most players are all running the same "OP" classes or a Ranged class, which also makes WvW suck.  It's like looking at a bunh of twins running around.  It's so bad, a team of three Invulnerability/Immunity classes with one shield/boon generating classes, can take out a team of 10 to 15 players with ease.

 

I've drop this over and over now in the forums and you can't ignore what you experience in WvW everyday.  Of course, if you're running an "OP" class, you don't have anything to say about it and would love to see it remain like it is.  It's not even PvP...  Range DPS, too high...  Shared Boons effect, too strong....   And you wonder why players spend most of their time in WvW either running around sideways, backwards or just running away peroid.  How can they get close to engage when you have Range DPS killing them the moment they get close?  How can anybody be killed in a Blob that has so many stacked shared Boons, they're basically all in God Mode?  You got Ranged Players taking away 90 percent of your health in one attack!  How is that PvP!?  It's too one sided and too fast, and that's why you do nothing but die, 'res', die, 'res', die, 'res', over and over again (WvW).

 

All I see flashing on the screen now is "Invulnerable", "Immune" or "Block, block block...."  The really sick part about it is, the best players that take down every other player only do so because they have invulnerability or immunity because they are bad players but because they can't be hit with physical damage or conditions, they are automatically the best.  The only other best players are the Hackers.  Like yesterday, a Ranger was rapid firing at a distance of at least 10k.  I mean you could barely see him in the distance he was so far away...practically on the other side of EBG while you were on the opposite side and he was still able to strike my character.  The Hackers are only making what's a mess even worst.

 

Worst concept for players vs player ever made!

 

I don't care what they (Devs) add to the game mode, Alliances or what ever, it's still going to be the same old broken unbalanced concept mess.

 

When will the "Devs" wake up and realize, you have a condition build for a Necro and they do because Curses and Scepter are two things that make that obvious but yet conditions can't deal any real damage like power because of the "Boon" party that's going on in WvW.  Again...  How is that fair or balanced for those playing Necro and I see a lot of new players coming to the game and picking Necro for main, but they're going to be sorry when they get into WvW and realize, the class is only ok in PvE; it's not built for WvW like other classes.

 

Not even talking about the new "EOD" Necro because that Spec is literally a 'self kill' Elite Spec.  The Necro kills itself anyway because we got a heal skill that adds negative boons to us, just one example....but yet, other classes are the ones running around with Invulnerability and Immunity to everything....

 

Wow...

 

Why is it when Necro fills the Life Force Bar in WvW, it will automatically drop down to like 70 percent?  You mean to tell me, we can't even go into a battle with 100 percent of our Life Force...?  Stuff like that make it completely obvious the "Devs" destroyed the Necro class on purpose.  Necro is the target dummy class of WvW!

 

If a Necro could do what a Willbender could in terms of Boons with Stability and conditional damage getting an upgrade to make up for the "Boon Party", Necro could then truly complete with any other class except thief and maybe have issues with Range players (because Core Necro doesn't have any real speed).

 

Hey, just give us the right side of our action tray when we go into Shroud....closing that part of our actions is a major handi-cap.  Like I stated, a practice dummy class.  Core Shroud does not do high DPS because it's based on conditions which can be cleasned and other abilities like Fear never land because of Immunity and Invulnerabilty.

 

The "Devs" don't know what they're doing....  They're just tossing in anything and "Nerfing" classes as other players call it.  It's clear they don't have the creativity smarts to balance anything.

 

I think I'll be moving back to World of Warcraft later this year.  The battlegrounds there were at least fun because there was no Blob mess going on and the classes were more balanced than GW2's classes.  I just don't care for the whole raiding for gear thing but you can just do PvP in "WOW" and get pretty good pre-raid gear.

 

All MMORPGS suck at this point but GW2 just takes the cake.

 

Forgive "typos"

 

Peace

[Kozumi.5816]

3 hours ago, Horace.3184 said:

All MMORPGS suck at this point but GW2 just takes the cake.

They do, and GW2 defiantly has the worst PvP and group instanced PvE in the genre. WvW is a complete joke of a game mode balance against others players in combat wise.

It has so much potential but is just ruined by mobility / boon /  burst creep. You're either fighting someone who can never die(be it stealth/mobility or boons/healing) or someone who insta kills you. Two extremes at the same time...

Edited February 24, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Kozumi.5816]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Why don't you just go over to the spvp forums and make that suggestion?

Better yet go to the general forums and ask for battlegrounds, content doesn't need to be "removed" just because you want something else entirely different.

I wish this game had BGs with SPvP balancing and gerar. Just a normal good PvP mode. Instead of  the esports or clown fiesta extremes we have now.

It'd be the best PvP MMO on the market if they did this.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Kozumi.5816

[Xenesis.6389]

5 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

I wish this game had BGs with SPvP balancing and gerar. Just a normal good PvP mode. Instead of  the esports or clown fiesta extremes we have now.

It'd be the best PvP MMO on the market if they did this.

No doubt, but given they practically dropped support for spvp and wvw more than half the time the game has existed, it's good they don't have a 3rd pvp area suffering from lack of support too, and good luck getting anything brand new from anet these days, they're hyper focused on pve.

[kash.9213]

38 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

I wish this game had BGs with SPvP balancing and gerar. Just a normal good PvP mode. Instead of  the esports or clown fiesta extremes we have now.

It'd be the best PvP MMO on the market if they did this.

That population would simmer down to the same handful of players who are down for that kind of grind though. You think that sounds like what you want but that sounds bland and empty and with not much shelf life outside of people who want to maintain a rank on a ladder. I think most of us have played other mmos and know what those game modes and arenas end up boiling down to. 

Need more Starwars galaxies with GW2 combat instead of another stale match system.

[Kozumi.5816]

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

That population would simmer down to the same handful of players who are down for that kind of grind though. You think that sounds like what you want but that sounds bland and empty and with not much shelf life outside of people who want to maintain a rank on a ladder. I think most of us have played other mmos and know what those game modes and arenas end up boiling down to. 

Need more Starwars galaxies with GW2 combat instead of another stale match system.

BG's are the most popular PvP game mode in WoW, and more popular than PvE. (source: lead PvP dev of WoW)

[KeyOrion.9506]

It's just going to be one big GvG Fight Club, with nobody capturing anything.  I will agree I do believe Alliances is just going to be one big waste of time and resources on the Developers part.  Why?  What I just mentioned.  For some reason, I have people in WvW that they no longer care about capturing, or PPT.  If that's the case, then you can close down World vs. World vs. World, since it no longer matters to Capture the flag.  And then Arenanet can spend time creating unique GvG arena's, and we can just deal with that.  In fact, you can just do the old style Guild Wars 1, where all the GvG was done inside a Guild's hall.   A toss of the coin, and either you are the defender or attacker with the choice of either opponants guild hall being chosen by random chance.  If anything I'm starting to see increased demand by Guilds, telling pugs to get off the maps so that their Guild members can get on the map.  That problem is only going to increase, as more and more Guilds complain that they can't fit their full guild on the map, and telling or commanding everyone else to get off.

 

So, just forget about alliances.  It's just a joke now. We don't need it.  All these guilds want is just a fight and see who the top dog is.  JUst get it over with, and go back to GW1 Guild Hall GvG.  Let's just finally be done with it.  WvW had a good run, but it's just flailing on empty cyllinders now.

 

And that is coming from a player, that has nearly played WvW every day, of every week for 10 years running.  Now for those that put in your little "Confused" face.  What?  IS it really that hard to understand?  What you've seen, and what you've heard in Comms, in chat, in forums, is that so hard to understand?

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

BG's are the most popular PvP game mode in WoW, and more popular than PvE. (source: lead PvP dev of WoW)

Sorry no when using that comparison. RvR and small scale fights like BGs are not the same. RvR draws people that are ok with setting an alarm for 3:30 AM or getting a call to wake up, and fight. WvW is the middle ground of this. No sorry WoW is not a RvR game, if you want larger sPvP apply suggestions there. Not opposed and might join but that's not RvR or WvW, please lets not mix them.

[Cyninja.2954]

7 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Sorry no when using that comparison. RvR and small scale fights like BGs are not the same. RvR draws people that are ok with setting an alarm for 3:30 AM or getting a call to wake up, and fight. WvW is the middle ground of this. No sorry WoW is not a RvR game, if you want larger sPvP apply suggestions there. Not opposed and might join but that's not RvR or WvW, please lets not mix them.

This.

Also the comparison with WoW is wildly lacking in substance. The reason regular battle grounds in WoW became popular was the easy access to gear (with initial Alterac Valley being the outlier with its day and multiple day long instances). The more structured battle grounds (or ranked battle grounds) which require actual performance are vastly less popular.

I doubt any one here is opposed to new PvP game modes of different sizes (which battle grounds essentially are). What people are opposed to is sacrificing the mode they enjoy for those potential new PvP modes.

If the extent of the comparison is based around player numbers alone without taking into account what the design behind the mode is (WvW being far more RvR related than PvP or Battlegrounds), the suggestion after can already be qualified as just as superficial and useless.

 

TL;DR:

If you want a 50v50 (or XvX) battle ground, make a strong case for it in the Spvp forum. Stop trying to sabotage a game mode you might disagree with.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Mabi black.1824]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:34 PM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

But is it really population imbalance which makes players quit? And who knows if alliances will actually stop the drain on the long run? Not saying doing nothing is better, but is that really the only alternative?

I imagine that this is not the only alternative. The point is that it seems only a part / a portion of work that cares about only one aspect and neglects / does not take everything else into consideration.

Do we all have the same feeling? Is it as if the alliance project lacks something? Something important?

For sure the new mechanics will be really effective in terms of similar servers, guaranteed, if you use many small pieces you will surely get very similar servers to each other. And then? How do we want to use all these new servers? What do we want to embroider around alliances to engage players? I keep splitting it over and over again. Stimulating and engaging the player is as important as granting balance between servers so that the player has access to content in a similar way.

And to find a good answer to this, as I have already written, try to ask yourself how can a tournament of twenty teams involve hundreds of thousands of fans? How can all those fans burn with the same passion and be so transported? Because that stuff is exactly the magic that many players have found in this game mode. making it unique and unrepeatable.

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, KeyOrion.9506 said:

It's just going to be one big GvG Fight Club, with nobody capturing anything. 

Just like the new rewards is a PPT merry go round with no one defending I guess.

[Kozumi.5816]

6 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

This.

Also the comparison with WoW is wildly lacking in substance. The reason regular battle grounds in WoW became popular was the easy access to gear (with initial Alterac Valley being the outlier with its day and multiple day long instances). The more structured battle grounds (or ranked battle grounds) which require actual performance are vastly less popular.

I doubt any one here is opposed to new PvP game modes of different sizes (which battle grounds essentially are). What people are opposed to is sacrificing the mode they enjoy for those potential new PvP modes.

If the extent of the comparison is based around player numbers alone without taking into account what the design behind the mode is (WvW being far more RvR related than PvP or Battlegrounds), the suggestion after can already be qualified as just as superficial and useless.

 

TL;DR:

If you want a 50v50 (or XvX) battle ground, make a strong case for it in the Spvp forum. Stop trying to sabotage a game mode you might disagree with.

Your info is outdated. WoW bgs were the worst way to gear for years and still extremely popular and more popular than arenas.

[Random dude.5089]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:35 AM, Bast.7253 said:

Will still wind up with skewed servers and people evading other commanders during off hours. But it's a bullet point I guess. 

the mod iesn't released yet , this guy complain before the mod is even out , interesting.