Turret Skills Need A Balance Patch! - A Comprehensive Breakdown - Turret Adjustment Guidelines Are Included And Discussion Is Encouraged!

[SleepyBat.9034]

I would like to apologize to everyone in advance for the length of this post however I encourage you to take the time to read it as I cover some important topics relating to Engineer class balance!

 

/// Who Am I? ///

I am a WvW Roamer who has considerable experience roaming on Engineer and Necromancer, as well as decent experience roaming on a variety of other classes. I enjoy exploring different build ideas and attempting to create new and innovative roaming builds for many of the classes I play. I have some experience in open world PvE but relatively little experience in the high end PvE and PvP game-modes and in large group WvW play. I started playing Guild Wars 2 on December 20, 2019 and I think I have a good understanding of how the game works.

 

/// The Goal Of This Post ///

• To recommend some potential changes for Turret skill type and a trait in the Inventions trait-line in the hopes of offering some perspective on how under-powered turrets* could be improved and made more viable in all game-modes. With minimal changes and without making them oppressive or promoting degenerative game-play.

*Note: Healing and Thumper Turrets are the only viable turrets currently, Supply Crate is primarily used for the activation crowd control, not the turrets it spawns.

 

/// Disclaimer ///

I understand that the Arena Net balance team for Guild Wars 2 is not required to implement recommendations made by its players nor should it because players often do not know what is in the best interests for the health of the game, however it is the mark of a good balance team to listen to feedback from its player-base who often offer insight into balance issues. This post is not completed and I accept all constructive criticism and will continue to update this post as I go adding any recommended changes or ideas to this post if they align with the goal of this post.

 

/// What Is A Turret? ///

A Turret is an immobile, automated device that can be deployed.

Most turrets will automatically engage the player's current target, the only exception to this being the Healing Turret. After deployment, the turret will automatically utilize its overcharge skill, which will create a special effect such as improved rate of fire or area of effect attack. A turret can only be overcharged once per deployment. After utilizing its overcharge skill it will auto-attack as long as it is in range of the target until its duration ends or it is destroyed.

All turrets are stationary; to redeploy them, players need to detonate them via the turret's sequence skill or pick them up by interacting with them. Picking them up reduces the redeployment recharge by 25% while detonation will cause damage around the turret's location and create a blast finisher combo effect.

All turrets grant a tool belt skill that resembles the effect of the turret's action.

Note: I think turrets should function like manually cast Engineer skills fired from a different direction with the purpose of distracting opponents and provoking a response (A good example of this concept is Necromancer's Flesh Wurm, which distracts your opponent not because of its lackluster damage but because of its stunbreak mechanic).

 

/// The Current Issues Regarding Turrets ///

Major issues currently inhibiting the viability of many turrets.

1. They spawn on the player's location when deployed allowing them to be easily cleaved down during competitive game-play.
2. They all have very low health regardless of their play-style.
3. They do not scale properly with the Engineers stats.
4. Turrets do not function with many traits that should be affecting them.
5. Many turrets could use minor adjustments to their mechanics and variables.

 

/// Proposed Solution ///

Minimum changes that could be taken to resolve current issues inflicting many turrets.

1. Give us the old Deployable Turrets trait back which would allow turrets to use ground targeting.
2. Increase turrets base health/defense based on their play-style.
3. Make turrets scale equal to 100% of the Engineer's stats* with the exception of Toughness and Vitality because I think those stats should be predefined based on the turret's play-style. I believe Healing Power, Concentration, Condition Damage, and Expertise already do this but Power, Precision, and Ferocity do not.
4. Make traits which affect turrets function properly.
5. Adjust turrets as needed for each game-mode.

*Note: Naturally the current base damage of many turret skills would be reduced to prevent excessively high damage after power increases, crit chance, and crit damage are factored in.

 

/// Turret Rework Ideas ///

Note: Traits and stats are not taken into account in the ratings below. Traits and stats will only affect turrets Damage and Utility ratings.

 

Rifle Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Rifle Turret should become a long range, glass cannon turret which inflicts power damage and is designed around a burst play-style. I think it could be viable in WvW if its overcharge skill becomes a rapid volley attack and its Passive skill to become a low damage double tap, and if it gets cooldown increase. It needs to inflict enough damage to justify taking Rifle Turret as a single target Damage Utility skill. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged.

WvW Rifle Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 25 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 18.75 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: low.

Overcharge skill: Damage (8x): 800 - 8x Vulnerability: 4 sec - Duration: 1.25 sec - Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% Chance) - Attack Range: 1000.

Passive skill: Damage: (2x): 134 - Rate of Fire: 3 sec - Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile (20% Chance) - Attack Range: 1000.

Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0 sec - Cooldown: 8 sec - Damage: 204 - Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile - Range: 1000.

• Overcharge Damage: high.
• Passive Damage: low.
• Action Speed: fast.
• Duration: fixed.
• Range: long.
• Cooldown: medium.
• Survivability: low.
• Utility: low.

 

Flame Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Flame Turret would function best as a short range, bunker turret which inflicts condition damage and is designed around a sustained damage play-style. I think the turret needs a longer cooldown and its passive skill needs to have faster action speed and longer attack range to be viable in WvW. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged.

WvW Flame Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 25 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 18.75 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: high.

Overcharge skill: Blind per Pulse: 2 sec - Duration: 5 sec - Radius: 240 - Combo Field: Smoke.

Passive skill: Damage: 200 - Burning (2 sec): 262 Damage - Rate of Fire: 3 sec - Attack Range: 600.

Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 25 seconds - Damage: 286 - Burning (4 sec): 524 Damage - Burning (2 sec): 262 Damage - Number of Targets: 5 - Pulses: 3 - Duration: 3 sec - Radius: 180 - Combo Field: Fire - Range: 900.

• Overcharge Damage: none.
• Passive Damage: high.
• Action Speed: fast.
• Duration: fixed.
• Range: short.
• Cooldown: medium.
• Survivability: high.
• Utility: low.

 

Net Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Net Turret would function best with utility based skills, a short attack range, medium health, and a hybrid play-style. It needs more health to be viable in WvW. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged.

WvW Net Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 30 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 22.5 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: medium.

Overcharge skill:  Immobilize (3 sec): Unable To Move - Stun (2 sec): Unable To Act. - Duration: 10 sec - Attack Range: 600 - Defiance Break: 200.

Passive skill: Immobilize (2 sec): Unable To Move - Rate of Fire: 10 sec - Attack Range: 600.

Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0 sec - Cooldown: 38 sec - Immobilize (3 sec): Unable to Move - Range: 600.

• Overcharge Damage: none.
• Passive Damage: none.
• Action Speed: slow.
• Duration: fixed.
• Range: short.
• Cooldown: long.
• Survivability: medium.
• Utility: low.

 

Rocket Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Rocket Turret functions best as a long range, medium health turret which inflicts power damage and is designed around a hybrid play-style. I think it needs a shorter cooldown and more health to be viable in WvW. I think the toolbelt skill should be unchanged.

WvW Rocket Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown 30 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 22.5 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: medium.

Overcharge skill: Damage: 6 - Knockdown: 2 sec - Number of Targets: 1 - Rate of Fire: 4 sec - Duration: 4 sec - Radius: 360 - Attack Range: 1,000 - Explosion - Defiance Break: 200.

Passive skill: Damage: 204 - Number of Targets: 5 - Rate of Fire: 4 sec - Radius: 240 - Attack Range: 1,000 - Explosion.

Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0.5 - Cooldown: 25 sec - Damage: 919 - Number of Targets: 5 - Radius: 240 - Explosion - Range: 1,500.

• Overcharge Damage: none.
• Passive Damage: high.
• Action Speed: medium.
• Duration: fixed.
• Range: long.
• Cooldown: medium.
• Survivability: medium.
• Utility: low.

 

Thumper Turret Adjustment Overview: I think Thumper Turret functions best as a melee, bunker turret which inflicts power damage and is designed around a sustained damage play-style. I think it needs a shorter cooldown and a small increase to its attack radius to better fit WvW game-play. I think the toolbelt skill needs small cooldown decrease and increase to the stability duration also the stability must be applied at the start of the skill.

WvW Thumper Turret Adjusted: Cast Time: 0.5 sec - Cooldown: 35 sec - Pickup Cooldown: 26.25 sec - Duration: 5 min - Health: high.

Overcharge skill: Damage: 6 - Launch: 400 - Number of Targets: 5 - Radius: 300 - Combo Finisher: Blast - Defiance Break: 232.

Passive skill: Damage: 300 - Cripple (3 sec): -50 Movement Speed - Number of Targets: 5 - Rate of Fire: 3 sec - Radius: 300.

Toolbelt skill: Cast Time: 0.25 sec - Cooldown: 32 sec - Damage: 100 - Stability (5 sec): Cannot be crowd controlled - Number of Targets: 5 - Breaks Stun - Combo Finisher: Blast - Range: 240.

• Overcharge Damage: none.
• Passive Damage: high.
• Action Speed: fast.
• Duration: fixed.
• Range: short.
• Cooldown: long.
• Survivability: high.
• Utility: medium.

 

Note: The above proposed turret adjustments are for WvW only as that is my area of expertise, I have not proposed any changes to PvE or PvP turret skills as of writing this post. Please follow my example and come up with some PvE and PvP adjustments for any turrets you feel are under-powered, try to align them with the goal of this post.

 

/// Trait Reworks ///

As I mentioned above when I outlined the problems with turrets I think the old Deployable Turrets trait that was removed on June 23, 2015 should be brought back. Previously it was in the Tools trait line however I think it should replace the Bunker Down trait in Inventions.

Deployable Turrets.

Turret skills use ground targeting.

— In-game description.

*Turret Deployment Range: 1200

Animation: The turrets appear to fall out of the sky like Supply Crate and should last for 0.5 seconds.

*Note: The wiki description was pretty vague so I needed to come up with some details for this proposed trait including where it should go and what the animation would be.

 

Traits that do not function properly with turrets:

Explosives

• Explosive Temper: hits from rocket turret don't apply stacks of explosive temper on the engineer (rocket turrets attacks are listed as explosives).
• Big Boomer: hits from rocket turret don't apply the healing portion of this trait on the engineer.

 

Tools

• Lock On: CC from turrets (rocket turret overcharge, thumper turret overcharge, net turret overcharge) doesn't trigger controlled analysis, nor do hits from turrets on stealthed foes trigger invisible analysis.
• Takedown Round: hits from turrets don't put the charge down.

 

Scrapper

• Expert Examination: net turret's stun (overcharge) does not apply weakness or vulnerability.
• System Shocker: CC from turrets (rocket turret overcharge, thumper turret overcharge, net turret overcharge) doesn't apply barrier on the scrapper.
• Impact Savant: hits from turrets don't apply barrier on the scrapper.

Note: I have been unable to test if these traits are still broken and I am sure I've missed some.

 

/// Future Turret Balance ///

Below is a list of the different variables that can be tweaked during balance for different turrets based on the play-style the turret is designed for. Because skills are split between game-modes you wouldn't have to worry about making one turret be too oppressive in one, and too weak in another. The trick would be finding the correct balance for each turret, in each game-mode.

• Damage/Healing - Stat Scaling (Power Precision, Ferocity, Condition Damage, Expertise, Healing Power).
• Action Speed - Interval between attacks/heals.
• Duration - Placed Turret Duration.
• Range - Attack Range.
• Radius - Effect Radius.
• Cooldown - Turret Cooldown, Turret Pickup Cooldown.
• Survivablilty - Stat Scaling (Toughness, Vitality).
• Utility - Reflective Bubbles, Boons, Crowd Control (Soft/Hard), Combo Fields/Finishers, Condition Cleanse, Stat Scaling (Concentration).

Note: Player Stats and Traits can effect turret Damage and Utility ratings so turrets would have to be balanced to account for them.

 

/// Turret Play-Styles ///

These are basic categories that help define the play-style of a turret, they are decided by its variables.

• Burst damage - High damage overcharge skill / Low damage passive skill.
• Hybrid damage - Medium damage overcharge skill / Medium damage passive skill.
• Sustained damage - Low damage overcharge skill / High damage passive skill.

 

• Glass cannon - Low survivability.
• Medium - Medium survivability.
• Bunker - High survivability.

 

• Melee - Very short range skills.
• Short range - Short range skills.
• Long range - Long range skills.

 

• Power - Primarily power based damage skills.
• Condition - Primarily condition based damage skills.
• Utility - Primarily Healing or Crowd Control based skills.

Example: Healing Turret is currently a Glass, Melee, type turret focused on a Utility and Burst play-style.

 

/// Q and A ///

Q - Why bother writing about this issue when Anet is just going to continue to ignore it?

A - Because if you want things to change persistence is key. Every request that is made is another reason for Anet to listen.

 

Q - Won't buffing turrets just fuel the afk farmers?

A - No, because buffing turrets doesn't give anything to afk farmers that they didn't already have access to.

 

Q - Turrets could use some love, but if they were actually good wouldn't people who already hate the Mechanist just completely lose it and demand it to be nerffed immediately?

A - They might, but why should that stop us from advocating for proper balance?

 

Q - Won't turrets become oppressive in PvP and promote degenerative game-play such as bunkering on nodes?

A - Not if they are balanced properly, I believe a happy medium exists between turrets being viable and oppressive.

 

Q - Wouldn't the Mechanist Elite Specialization become super brain-dead and oppressive if turrets were buffed?

A - Actually the Mechanist Elite Specialization would get the least benefit from using turrets because they lose access to the tool-belt skills and are already short on utility.

 

Q - Doesn't adding more A. I. into the game make it more brain-dead?

A - Turrets have very little A. I. they mostly follow a predefined rotation and only attack when in range, and no, I cannot see why it would.

 

Q - Doesn't this "use once and then just low damage" idea go against the entire turret design philosophy? Wouldn't it be better to bring the old self activate overcharge back?

A - Not according to the wiki, the only turret this would effect is the Rifle Turret so I think losing some of the original design is worth it in this case. And I don't think we need go quite so far as to bring back the old overcharge system.

 

Q - Isn't the whole point of turrets to be used in a bunker-down play-style? If they have short duration's they might as well just be gyros at that point.

A - I don't see any reason why turrets should inherently have a bunker-down type play-style, I think that is more decided by the individual turret. They would function differently from gyros with ranged placement and attacks.

 

Q - Wouldn't turrets be worthless in WVW because of the huge blob fights with AoE being thrown everywhere? Even in a 1v1, what are you going to do when the enemy is an 1800 range soulbeast that simply kite your turrets?

A - Turrets would be relatively ineffective in large group game-play which is to be expected due to combat mechanics, you have to remember that there are really two ways to play WvW, solo roaming/small group play and large group play. Many turrets have crowd control skills built into them and when turrets can be deployed at range this is not much of an issue.

 

/// Contributions ///

I would like to thank these people who have helped me form the basis of this post with their many thoughts, concerns, and questions.

@White Kitsunee.4620, @Lily.1935, @BenaSPACE.6028, @Coolster.2536, @XenMaster.7165, @jinn.6392, @Bomboed.5697,  @TheGPX.8130, @Kodama.6453, @Ghos.1326, @rdigeri.7935, @Dawdler.8521, @Lynx.905, @Liewec.2896.

Special thanks to @Matoro.9708 who wrote a similar post on August 28, 2019 which gave me much insight into the situation.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034
Word Clarification

[inci.3705]

Rifle Turret: looks good

 

Flame Turret:

As someone who tried desperately hard to make this work for core engineer roaming, I disagree with these changes. The best sustain is movement and utility. Here is what I want:

 

1. Make toolbelt skill a 700 range leap (specifically, a leap finisher) with a 1/2 second evade,  2 (or more!) stacks of burning on landing impact, that leaves a field fire field with same the same old AOE effect.

2. Increase the overcharge smoke field and attack radius

3. Make the overcharge immediately activate on summon

 

Toolbelt gives a combo opportunity for stealth w/out spending a blast and makes dropping rocket boots less scary, freeing up a slot.

 

Making the overcharge immediate on summon will be a HUGE QOL buff against any class with stealth (b/c it currently won't activate without any enemies around...), making it act essentially as a Black Powder with some bells and whistles (would probably need to increase the CD slightly).

 

Net Turret:

 

The problem with Net Turret is that it is EXTREMELY LOW VALUE for the slot, even with your changes. The skill closest to Net Turret would be Darkrazor's Daring and look at how much more it does. While I won't suggest buffing Net Turret to that extent, Net Turret (even with your changes) does not even remotely compete with most utilities (even gadgets). Doubly so for the toolbelt skill.

 

1. Make 1s Slow baseline for Net Turret attack

2. Net Turret can now attack up to 3 targets at a time

3. Make the toolbelt "Net Wall": create a slow moving wall AoE (essentially the first half of Chronomancer Shield #5) that strips 3 boons from up to 5 enemies, applies 4 stacks of torment for 8 seconds and 0.5 seconds of immobilize. Reduce CD from 38 to 30 seconds.

 

Rocket Turret: Also need to re-add some damage to the overcharge ability. Nothing crazy like the toolbelt, but just make it not essentially 0.

 

Thumper Turret: looks good. QOL improvement: apply the stab at the START of the skill.

Edited August 25, 2022 by dvomd.4307

[SleepyBat.9034]

I think you misunderstood how I used the word sustain.

9 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I think Flame Turret would function best as a short range, bunker turret which inflicts condition damage and is designed around a sustain play-style.

What I meant by my use of the word sustain was that Flame Turret would focus more on doing damage over time through its passive action not lots all at once from its overcharge action. I tried to define it and it's my fault for not picking a better word.

9 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

• Burst - High damage overcharge skill / Low damage passive skill.
• Hybrid - Medium damage overcharge skill / Medium damage passive skill.
• Sustained - Low damage overcharge skill / High damage passive skill.

 

 

The problem I have with many of these changes you've listed is that I don't think they are needed to make turrets viable. The goal isn't to make them optimal, just viable.

 

3 hours ago, dvomd.4307 said:

Make toolbelt skill a 700 range leap (specifically, a leap finisher) with a 1/2 second evade,  2 (or more!) stacks of burning on landing impact, that leaves a field fire field with same the same old AOE effect.

I'm not opposed to giving Core Engineer more mobility however almost anything you do for Core will effect the other Elite Specializations, this is actually the major design flaw with Engineer but that's a topic for another day.

 

3 hours ago, dvomd.4307 said:

3. Make the overcharge immediately activate on summon

I find this change very interesting but I think it may be a step too far, I'll have to think about it for a bit.

I can already see some issues, for instance what happens if the Engineer combos a leap finisher with the smoke field and goes into stealth and the turret attacks the opponent? Will the Engineer get revealed?

3 hours ago, dvomd.4307 said:

Making the overcharge immediate on summon will be a HUGE QOL buff against any class with stealth (b/c it currently won't activate without any enemies around...)

This is a good point.

 

Are you sure Net Turret wouldn't be viable as I recommended? Constant immobilize can be quite oppressive. Also your idea for Rocket Turret breaks previous balance philosophy.

3 hours ago, dvomd.4307 said:

Thumper Turret: looks good. QOL improvement: apply the stab at the START of the skill.

This sounds good, more like a bug fix.

Edited August 25, 2022 by SleepyBat.9034
My reply was too long

[Alcatraznc.3869]

If Anet wants to implement turret change they should do it more or less like the banner change.

 

These days having 5 min duration or more for turret is basically useless except maybe in PvP. In PvE you move a lot between encounter except some boss in arena. It is kind of the same for WvW except maybe if you're defending a property but then again, the angle of attack can just shift and you'll have to wait for your turret to CD. 

 

I like the overall change but my idea of turret is that have strong effect when deployed but they only last for a relatively short time.

For instance if you place a rocket turret, it would be active for 15 sec then it automatically gets destroyed. But during those 15 sec the turret is actually a threat to people in its range. Yeah I know this isnt what a turret should be however I think this such iteration of turret would be much easier to balance and would make AFK farming less of an issue. It could complement with the change you propose. Having the turret scale with the Engineer stat would makes it easier to balance though it could potentially make some turret unfit with some playstyle.

 

As for the toolbelt skill, I havent really used turret enough to properly know them. I know rifle turret arguably has the best of the bunch  as far as toolbelt skill. Flame turret toolbelt is rather underwhelming, same for healing turret actually. Rocket turret toolbelt isnt convenient to use, Net turret toolbelt is ok I guess and Thumperturret feels kind of lackluster for a skill with high CD.

[SleepyBat.9034]

Thank you for your insight!

I haven't been keeping up with warrior class balance super well so I'll have to go read up on that, it sounds like your view of turrets would be all burst no sustain damage which could definitely work, I'll have to think about it some. Also could you clarify what you meant by

8 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Having the turret scale with the Engineer stat would makes it easier to balance though it could potentially make some turret unfit with some playstyle.

On the topic about toolbelt skills they do tend to be on the weaker side which is part of the theme I think, Rocket Turret is quite inconvenient but I think that's ok because it hits very hard and Thumper Turret does have a long cooldown, probably because Protection Holosmith was a thing in PvP, personally I think it should be lowered.

[inci.3705]

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Sustained - Low damage overcharge skill / High damage passive skill.

Yeah, my b. Reading is hard. In general, I don't want to encourage the passive damage, and I agree with @Alcatraznc.3869 in the sense that I want strong effects with short duration. IMO, if you want to enjoy a long-lasting AI, Mechanist would be better suited (and I only play Mechanist for the rocket memes).

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

The goal isn't to make them optimal, just viable.

From a core engi PoV, the issue with running turrets is that they take up really valuable slots: Elixir S, Rocket Boots, Grenade Kit, Tool Kit, Throw Mine, or Flamethrower. If you want turrets to be viable for roaming, you have to give me some excuse to take them over those prime picks (and also a pistol buff :P).

The changes I've outlined would make me consider swapping one of those skills out for a turret under the current roaming meta.

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'm not opposed to giving Core Engineer more mobility however almost anything you do for Core will effect the other Elite Specializations

Agreed. Although I'd argue my changes do not make turrets the clear choice in any way, shape, or form. The utilities the E-specs "normally" choose provide big value.

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Will the Engineer get revealed?

No, it will function as it currently does (and I think for most AI companions including the Mech and Thieves guild): the engineer remains hidden. The turret is considered a separate entity doing the hits.

 

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Are you sure Net Turret wouldn't be viable as I recommended? Constant immobilize can be quite oppressive.

 

It might have been a few years ago. Let me just list a some builds I've fought the past 2 weeks that wouldn't even care for the most part due to projectile blocks/reflects, resistance uptime, condi cleanse, or condi cleave (or any combination):

 

1. Cele Tempest

2. Cele Renegade

3. Cele Harb

4. Cele nade Mech

5. Cele FB

6. Cele Willbender

 

(HMMMMMM, I WONDER WHAT THE COMMON DENOMINATOR IS ANET???)

 

Even with health buffs, Net Turret value drops off big time against any of these builds. TBH, this is just a symptom of core's reliance on projectiles, hence why I wanted the toolbelt change.

 

As a side note, I forgot to mention that a toolbelt change for Rocket Turret would be really good: instead of a single slow rocket, swap it to something more like Citadel Bombadment.

 

Currently, Jade Mortar is superior to the Rocket in every single way:

 

1. Gives quickness

2. Easier to combo into CC b/c it can be cast by the Mech while CCing

3. Comparable direct damage with extra burning

 

The toolbelt change would make it less awkward to use.

[SleepyBat.9034]

11 hours ago, dvomd.4307 said:

From a core engi PoV, the issue with running turrets is that they take up really valuable slots: Elixir S, Rocket Boots, Grenade Kit, Tool Kit, Throw Mine, or Flamethrower.

That is an interesting point, you're saying Turrets need to be comparable to similar slot skills? e.g. Rifle Turret = Laser Disk. That would mean Rifle, Rocket, and Flame Turrets would almost never be chosen over Kits, any leftover slots after picking your Kits would go toward condition cleanse and stunbreaks. And making Turrets all be burst like would make this even more so. Which means that Rifle, Rocket, Flame, and Net Turrets would be super niche, you already see that with skills like Shredder Gyro. Healing and Thumper Turrets would still be the most used because they have condition cleanse and stunbreaks respectively.

 

I wonder, could Net Turret be made unblockable or rip boons? That sounds ok, it would make Net Turret compete with Throw Mine. Actually looking at that list of builds you made there what is one of the many things they all have in common? Boons, lots of them.

I like your idea for the Rocket Turret toolbelt skill, could almost be made to ignore line of sight. That would fit the theme too.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:00 PM, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Also could you clarify what you meant by

 

Yeah I think I probably used the wrong word

 

Ok let's take an easy example. Let's imagine I want to use Flame turret for whatever reason. For an easy understanding we'll say Flame turret right now deal 50 power damage and 100 condition damage. With the current turret setup that is what would happen regardless of your stat. Your turret will hit for 150 with 100 power damage and 100 condition damage.

 

Now we implement stat sharing from the Engineer armour weapon trinket..... Let's say I am playing Condition damage then my Flame turret would probably deal something like 10 power damage and 200 condition damage. And if I play Power damage then it would be something like 200 power damage and 10 condition.

 

In my example the coefficent are more or less similar but in reality it wont be like that. For the Flame turret because it is a condition weapon it would most likely look like 20 power 150 condition based. When I said "unfit" I meant "sub optimal". Right now I can more or less use any turret I want and it will have the same efficiency regardless of my build. But with shared stats, rifle turret will be more optimal for power build and sub optimal for condi build. The other way around for Flame turret. 

 

You will say "well yeah it makes sense because power build wouldnt benefit from Flame turret" and that is true. But it will affect utility based turret like Net turret for instance. Using power build, you do not have any expertise so your immobilization time will be hindered if turret shares stats. On the other hand for condi build you do use expertise so you will be buffing your immobilisation duration. So if you put for instance 3 sec base duration, for power build it wont change however we're looking at a potential 6 sec immobilization for condi build. But if you put 1.5 sec duration, for power build it wont be that great but for condi build, you can have 3 sec.

 

So in short summary :

 

Non shared stat: +: same performance regardless of the build || -: relatively poor performances overall 

 

shared stat : +: scaling performance if you're using the good stats || - : sub optimal if you're only looking for the utility/effect.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Alcatraznc.3869

[SleepyBat.9034]

4 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Yeah I think I probably used the wrong word

 

Ok let's take an easy example. Let's imagine I want to use Flame turret for whatever reason. For an easy understanding we'll say Flame turret right now deal 50 power damage and 100 condition damage. With the current turret setup that is what would happen regardless of your stat. Your turret will hit for 150 with 100 power damage and 100 condition damage.

 

Now we implement stat sharing from the Engineer armour weapon trinket..... Let's say I am playing Condition damage then my Flame turret would probably deal something like 10 power damage and 200 condition damage. And if I play Power damage then it would be something like 200 power damage and 10 condition.

 

In my example the coefficent are more or less similar but in reality it wont be like that. For the Flame turret because it is a condition weapon it would most likely look like 20 power 150 condition based. When I said "unfit" I meant "sub optimal". Right now I can more or less use any turret I want and it will have the same efficiency regardless of my build. But with shared stats, rifle turret will be more optimal for power build and sub optimal for condi build. The other way around for Flame turret. 

 

You will say "well yeah it makes sense because power build wouldnt benefit from Flame turret" and that is true. But it will affect utility based turret like Net turret for instance. Using power build, you do not have any expertise so your immobilization time will be hindered if turret shares stats. On the other hand for condi build you do use expertise so you will be buffing your immobilisation duration. So if you put for instance 3 sec base duration, for power build it wont change however we're looking at a potential 6 sec immobilization for condi build. But if you put 1.5 sec duration, for power build it wont be that great but for condi build, you can have 3 sec.

 

So in short summary :

 

Non shared stat: +: same performance regardless of the build || -: relatively poor performances overall 

 

shared stat : +: scaling performance if you're using the good stats || - : sub optimal if you're only looking for the utility/effect.

Right understand what you're saying now, thanks for responding!

[Matoro.9708]

Wouldn't change the rocket toolbelt skill? Bro, you can launch that and take a nap, have a shower, eat dinner and come back and it still won't have landed. 

I strongly believe turrets need to have no AI, just ammo abilities. Give rifle turret the skin from the one in caudecus's manor. We'll see if Anet gets that far.

[Tails.9372]

13 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

I strongly believe turrets need to have no AI, just ammo abilities.

That would defeat the point of having them in the first place and turn them into glorified attack animations with additional disadvantages.

Turrets should act like stationary minions with more durability and damage then the necro ones but rooted in place so they can't act as meatshilds unless you lure the enemies into them.

The main "issue" here is that they, to a degree, just like other minions / pets add a pasive component which a certain subsection of the playerbase isn't very found of so A-Net would both have to take stand here and stick to it.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Uete.3805]

Wow, amazing analysis and very well put out piece of constructive feedback. Kudos!

I believe their initial intent with Engi's turrets was for them to become gw2's version of Ritualist's spirits. As such, I would keep the Experimental Turrets trait and improve it for buffing purposes. I'd say remove the reflective barrier (or put that on the Deployable new trait) and make them a valuable part of engi's supporting capabilities. To do that I'd advocate for the base boon duration of all boons to be at least 5 sec (so that you could have permanent boon aplication around your turrets with 100% boon duration) or to keep the current boon duration (or lower it a bit) while providing its effectes every 5 seconds instead of 10. I would also maybe review the amount of might flame turret would give (I think it could go up to 5 might for 10 sec) and the boon granted by net turret (It'd be interesting if it gave resistance rather than swiftness).

They could always go the quickness-catalyst route and make the Experimental Turrets effects even more powerful at the expense of some of the turret's power coefficients and condi durations (although taking inventions over firearms or explosives is already a dps loss no matter what you do).

Thanks for the post!

[Bomboed.5697]

Turrets should be reworked the same way the Spirit Weapons of Guardian were reworked. They should become just spells with prolonged duration (something like wells), instead of "pets" with health.

For example, Rifle turret is a single target burst: you summon it (just an animation) and during X secs it unleashes bullets to your target.
Or Rocket Turret can be Engi version of Ranger's Barrage or Ele's Meteor Shower: you summon it near you and it bombards a targeted area with damage (possibly with high synergy with Explosives traitline).
Flame Turret should be something for Condi builds.
Net turret should be reworked into something purely defensive, like a shield generator, while Thumper turret should be all about CC.

Being just spells, they should scale just like all other spells, no more shenanigans with being "pets", no more dying from cleave, no more stupid and boring mechanics with repair/redeploy/self-destruction.

[SleepyBat.9034]

4 hours ago, Uete.3805 said:

Wow, amazing analysis and very well put out piece of constructive feedback. Kudos!

I believe their initial intent with Engi's turrets was for them to become gw2's version of Ritualist's spirits. As such, I would keep the Experimental Turrets trait and improve it for buffing purposes. I'd say remove the reflective barrier (or put that on the Deployable new trait) and make them a valuable part of engi's supporting capabilities. To do that I'd advocate for the base boon duration of all boons to be at least 5 sec (so that you could have permanent boon aplication around your turrets with 100% boon duration) or to keep the current boon duration (or lower it a bit) while providing its effectes every 5 seconds instead of 10. I would also maybe review the amount of might flame turret would give (I think it could go up to 5 might for 10 sec) and the boon granted by net turret (It'd be interesting if it gave resistance rather than swiftness).

They could always go the quickness-catalyst route and make the Experimental Turrets effects even more powerful at the expense of some of the turret's power coefficients and condi durations (although taking inventions over firearms or explosives is already a dps loss no matter what you do).

Thanks for the post!

Thank you for the complement!

Why do you think the reflective barrier should be removed? I think you're right about the boon part, they all have pretty low duration. I think one of the main issues regarding Inventions is that when you pair it with Explosives, Firearms, and Tools you don't get very good boon access, I know Alchemy is our Boon traitline but still, you get so many boons from Alchemy and Elixirs that the other trait-lines and skills are miles behind in terms of boon generation. If Net Turret gave Resistance instead of Swiftness the duration would have to be less. I don't like the idea of turrets damage being super low because you already have to work to fit them into your build and even with the boons it might not be worth taking. I'd have to give it some thought.

 

[SleepyBat.9034]

25 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Turrets should be reworked the same way the Spirit Weapons of Guardian were reworked. They should become just spells with prolonged duration (something like wells), instead of "pets" with health.

For example, Rifle turret is a single target burst: you summon it (just an animation) and during X secs it unleashes bullets to your target.
Or Rocket Turret can be Engi version of Ranger's Barrage or Ele's Meteor Shower: you summon it near you and it bombards a targeted area with damage (possibly with high synergy with Explosives traitline).
Flame Turret should be something for Condi builds.
Net turret should be reworked into something purely defensive, like a shield generator, while Thumper turret should be all about CC.

Being just spells, they should scale just like all other spells, no more shenanigans with being "pets", no more dying from cleave, no more stupid and boring mechanics with repair/redeploy/self-destruction.

That's not a bad idea actually, my only question would be why do they have to only do one thing each? Also unlike Spirit Weapons they aren't an ammo mechanic. Other then that it could work rather well.

[Bomboed.5697]

1 minute ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

That's not a bad idea actually, my only question would be why do they have to only do one thing each? Also unlike Spirit Weapons they aren't an ammo mechanic. Other then that it could work rather well.

Spirit Weapons do one action and then they disappear. For them it is okay to have ammo mechanic.
Turrets should work more like wells - you summon them and they do X effect on targeted area for X seconds. Turret effects are like pulses for wells: for example, Rocket Turret will "pulse" Rocket Barrages on targeted area each second for 5 seconds.
Of course  their effects should be redesigned too. Does Rocket Turret just damages area? Does it has an Explosion tag on each pulse? Or does it, maybe, has 5 blast finishers? Or maybe be it should Cripple enemies in area?
Currently, Turret effects are boring, ineffective and have little to no synergy with traitlines. It is better to design Turrets not to have several effects each, but have one strong effect, which will be desirable for certain builds. Like Rocket Turret should be designed to have synergy with Explosives traitlines. Or Flame Turret should have synergy with condi-burn builds. Or we can replace Net turret (we already have several ways to immobilize enemies) with Shield Generator Turret, which will, for example, pulse Protection on allies in area (this will have a good synergy with Inventions traitline)

Turret trait in Inventions should be reworked too. Instead of boons it should somehow improve each turret, just like Gadgeteer trait improves Gadgets. Maybe it should add a reflective bubble to Shield Gen Turret? Maybe it should add boon removal on Rifle Turret? Maybe it should add immobilize on first pulse of Rocket Turret?

It is all a matter of design. Turrets are complete garbage now, their whole design is bad. It should not be improved, it should be totally reworked into something completely different.

[SleepyBat.9034]

33 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Spirit Weapons do one action and then they disappear. For them it is okay to have ammo mechanic.
Turrets should work more like wells - you summon them and they do X effect on targeted area for X seconds. Turret effects are like pulses for wells: for example, Rocket Turret will "pulse" Rocket Barrages on targeted area each second for 5 seconds.
Of course  their effects should be redesigned too. Does Rocket Turret just damages area? Does it has an Explosion tag on each pulse? Or does it, maybe, has 5 blast finishers? Or maybe be it should Cripple enemies in area?
Currently, Turret effects are boring, ineffective and have little to no synergy with traitlines. It is better to design Turrets not to have several effects each, but have one strong effect, which will be desirable for certain builds. Like Rocket Turret should be designed to have synergy with Explosives traitlines. Or Flame Turret should have synergy with condi-burn builds. Or we can replace Net turret (we already have several ways to immobilize enemies) with Shield Generator Turret, which will, for example, pulse Protection on allies in area (this will have a good synergy with Inventions traitline)

Turret trait in Inventions should be reworked too. Instead of boons it should somehow improve each turret, just like Gadgeteer trait improves Gadgets. Maybe it should add a reflective bubble to Shield Gen Turret? Maybe it should add boon removal on Rifle Turret? Maybe it should add immobilize on first pulse of Rocket Turret?

It is all a matter of design. Turrets are complete garbage now, their whole design is bad. It should not be improved, it should be totally reworked into something completely different.

Why do we need to get rid of the boon and reflective barriers though? I think those should stay as they are and just pulse faster to make up for the ammo mechanic or just pulse once. Also I think they might need a short cooldown before you can use the next ammo charge to prevent stun-locking with Thumper Turret or super high burn application from Flame Turret. I don't think these would function like wells, wells are area of effect skills that pulse, turrets wouldn't pulse with the exception of Flame Turret. I think Rifle and Rocket Turrets should keep the directed attack like they currently do but lose the long duration, ability to be attacked, and passive damage. Also the placement mechanic should stay the same so you would need to trait it if you want ranged placement, with the ability to be cleaved out there's very little downside to being placed on your location. This would encourage you to take Experimental Turrets if you are running a melee placement turret build or Deployable Turrets if you are running a ranged placement turret build. I think Net Turret should stay the same but throw out 3 nets and hit up to 3 targets when used. It might be fun to have a immobilize spam Engineer build!

[Bomboed.5697]

3 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Why do we need to get rid of the boon and reflective barriers though? I think those should stay as they are and just pulse faster to make up for the ammo mechanic or just pulse once. Also I think they might need a short cooldown before you can use the next ammo charge to prevent stun-locking with Thumper Turret or super high burn application from Flame Turret. I don't think these would function like wells, wells are area of effect skills that pulse, turrets wouldn't pulse with the exception of Flame Turret. I think Rifle and Rocket Turrets should keep the directed attack like they currently do but lose the long duration, ability to be attacked, and passive damage. Also the placement mechanic should stay the same so you would need to trait it if you want ranged placement, with the ability to be cleaved out there's very little downside to being placed on your location. This would encourage you to take Experimental Turrets if you are running a melee placement turret build or Deployable Turrets if you are running a ranged placement turret build. I think Net Turret should stay the same but throw out 3 nets and hit up to 3 targets when used. It might be fun to have a immobilize spam Engineer build!

Boons should stay where they make sense. Some turrets are offensive, like Rifle or Rocket. There is no need for them to apply boons. They should affect enemies, not allies.
Some turrets are defensive, like Healing Turret or, potentially, Shield Turret. They could apply some boons.
Reflective barrier in its current form is just meh. It is small, looks crappy and makes no sense for most turrets. It is better to make it stronger and tie to a single turret, like Shield Turret by default. You summon it and it creates a protective dome in the area.

I am against ammo mechanic for turrets simply because a prefer one, but more impactful use of ability, rather then several crappy ones. Spirit Weapons feel week exactly because their effect are weak, because it allows several use of them.

I think Turrets should work like wells because ability to affect several targets will make them more competitive to other skills. Keep in mind that in place of Turret you could take other skills or even Kits. Rocket Turret, which deals damage to only 1 target, will never be a good choice instead of, for example, Flamethrower or Bomb Kit. And Rifle Turret is never taken because of itself, it is used only because it has a 8sec CD toolbelt which works well with Static Discharge. Why? Because Rifle Turret itself provides nothing that weapon skills cannot.

Also, why would you take Net Turret in place of Bomb Kit, which includes a massive immobilize with shorter CD?
Turrets should provide something other skills do not. Half of turrets should be damage-oriented and they should have synergy with damage-oriented tratlines. Other half of turrets should be more defensive-oriented, so they should synergy with defensive traitlines. Shield Turret will be better and more unique, while effects of Net turret could be easily implemented to other turrets.

[SleepyBat.9034]

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Boons should stay where they make sense. Some turrets are offensive, like Rifle or Rocket. There is no need for them to apply boons.

That's only true if you make Turrets have ranged placement baseline, I think you should be able to choose if you want ranged or melee placement, that way you still have a reason for all the turrets to give boons. Obviously if you pick the Deployable Turrets trait and take ranged turrets you can drop Experimental Turrets for another trait in that tier because its affects wouldn't benefit you much.

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

They should affect enemies, not allies.

Why can't they do both? You could have different setups with the same skills.

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Some turrets are defensive, like Healing Turret or, potentially, Shield Turret. They could apply some boons.
Reflective barrier in its current form is just meh. It is small, looks crappy and makes no sense for most turrets. It is better to make it stronger and tie to a single turret, like Shield Turret by default. You summon it and it creates a protective dome in the area.

Your Shield Turret idea is practically identical to Defense Field. I don't think we need another one.

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

I am against ammo mechanic for turrets simply because a prefer one, but more impactful use of ability, rather then several crappy ones. Spirit Weapons feel week exactly because their effect are weak, because it allows several use of them.

You're right about this, I'd rather have one Turret that does something then many that do none.

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

I think Turrets should work like wells because ability to affect several targets will make them more competitive to other skills. Keep in mind that in place of Turret you could take other skills or even Kits. Rocket Turret, which deals damage to only 1 target, will never be a good choice instead of, for example, Flamethrower or Bomb Kit. And Rifle Turret is never taken because of itself, it is used only because it has a 8sec CD toolbelt which works well with Static Discharge. Why? Because Rifle Turret itself provides nothing that weapon skills cannot.

So you want Turrets that can attack more then one target at once? Sounds reasonable. Technically that bit about Rocket Turret isn't quite true, the overcharge cc only hits one target, the passive rockets hit 5, the rockets do AOE damage when they land. As for Rifle Turret if people take it for the toolbelt skill and you improve the turret itself then it becomes a niche dps skills like Shredder Gyro and Laser Disk, both of which are rarely used.

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Also, why would you take Net Turret in place of Bomb Kit, which includes a massive immobilize with shorter CD?
Turrets should provide something other skills do not. Half of turrets should be damage-oriented and they should have synergy with damage-oriented tratlines. Other half of turrets should be more defensive-oriented, so they should synergy with defensive traitlines. Shield Turret will be better and more unique, while effects of Net turret could be easily implemented to other turrets.

So we can agree Net Turret needs to change if we want it to not become super niche, however I disagree that it should become a Shield Turret, we already have that function in Defense Field. As for defensive turrets having synergy with Inventions they already do, Healing and Tumper Turret are both affected heavily by the trait-line and are already the most viable turrets.

[Bomboed.5697]

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

That's only true if you make Turrets have ranged placement baseline, I think you should be able to choose if you want ranged or melee placement, that way you still have a reason for all the turrets to give boons. Obviously if you pick the Deployable Turrets trait and take ranged turrets you can drop Experimental Turrets for another trait in that tier because its affects wouldn't benefit you much.

Both traits are not needed in my design. All Turrets are placed near Engineer, but they are only an animation, not a pet. The effect of turret depends on a turret. For example, Healing turret both placed and works near Engineer, while Rocket Turret is only placed near Engineer, while it bombards an area, targeted when skill is used.

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Why can't they do both? You could have different setups with the same skills.

Because it is boring. It is better to open a space for more interesting design of trait which will improve Turrets. Some Turrets could be improved by boon application, some could be improved in other ways. For example, Healing Turret could get a new boon from a trait, while Rifle Turret could get a condition or something else offensive.
 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Your Shield Turret idea is practically identical to Defense Field. I don't think we need another one.

In my version, Shield Turret, by default, is just a "well" that pulses defensive boons, like Protection around it. Anti-projectile dome could be something that this turret gets from a trait.
Also, Gurdian has like 3 or 4 ways to create such dome. Engi has only one and only is Scrapper.
Also, Defense Field is mobile. Dome from a Shield Turret could be stationary, but last longer or be larger in size.

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

So you want Turrets that can attack more then one target at once? Sounds reasonable. Technically that bit about Rocket Turret isn't quite true, the overcharge cc only hits one target, the passive rockets hit 5, the rockets do AOE damage when they land

I want turrets to affect areas. In some cases they affect area around them (Healing, Shield, Thumper turrets), in other cases they affect a targeted area (Rocket, Rifle, Flame turrets).

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

As for Rifle Turret if people take it for the toolbelt skill and you improve the turret itself then it becomes a niche dps skills like Shredder Gyro and Laser Disk, both of which are rarely used.

It depends on how the turret is improved. It should somehow synergy with already existing traits and playstyles, or provide something new and desirable, that other skills cannot provide. For example, Riffle Turret could be a way to quickly stack tons of Vulnerability on enemies. Or it constantly Cripples targets it fires at.

 

2 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

So we can agree Net Turret needs to change if we want it to not become super niche, however I disagree that it should become a Shield Turret, we already have that function in Defense Field. As for defensive turrets having synergy with Inventions they already do, Healing and Tumper Turret are both affected heavily by the trait-line and are already the most viable turrets.

We are talking about a complete redesign. Both Healing and Thumper turrets should be reworked too.

[Rosiep.9128]

I'd see turrets work a bit like spirit weapons or like scourge shades, instead of being placed down on the ground they would be ground targetable and sort of fly down with propellers or float down with balloons. I'm about to go to bed but:

 

- Rocket turret would bombard the area around it with rockets before firing rockets at targets for its duration.

- Rifle turret would come down firing a rapid volley of bullets at your main target before continuing to fire but with less rapidity.

- Net turret would come down and drop a stunning net around it, before firing nets at targets.

- Flame turret would come down and spin a smoke field around it before spinning to set enemies on fire around it.

- Thumper turret would come down and project an anti-projectile bubble and thump noise makers on its casing to pulse defensive boons like a dredge disaggregator.

- Healing turret would be the only one you place without ground targeting and would do as it does now and burst heals and cleanses.

 

All turrets would be able to explode on command but would only last a limited amount of time. Turrets (except healing turret which is a heal skill) would have charges based on the number of turrets filling utility slots and all would share these charges/cooldown. This would let you place multiple of the same turret so you don't find yourself dropping one that doesn't fit the situation you're in while at the same time avoiding a situation where people would just carry one turret to use multiple times. The less you commit to turreteer, the less turrets you can drop sort of thing.

[Matoro.9708]

On 8/28/2022 at 5:31 AM, Tails.9372 said:

That would defeat the point of having them in the first place and turn them into glorified attack animations with additional disadvantages.

Turrets should act like stationary minions with more durability and damage then the necro ones but rooted in place so they can't act as meatshilds unless you lure the enemies into them.

The main "issue" here is that they, to a degree, just like other minions / pets add a pasive component which a certain subsection of the playerbase isn't very found of so A-Net would both have to take stand here and stick to it.

I disagree, here's why: there isn't much difference between having their auto attacks and just having a more powerful version of your own. They buffed rifle, and everyone said they buffed Mech! Turrets' sustained dps is garbage, and for the health of the game, per Mechanist, should always be. Their main tactical advantage in their current and past states has been to either have flanking hits (which don't even proc sigils LOL), or activate their overcharge at the perfect time, like a trap, but with more control. Turrets used to have real trait options. Look here for example: https://web.archive.org/web/20140323091717/https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_engineer_traits

There is no world in which any class would struggle to fight against a full complement of turrets. Even if there was, it would mean the Engineer does not have to play the game - only press a few buttons and wait. Even if my suggestion of ammo abilities means just an overcharge ability, or 30 secs of autoattacking, whatever, there has to be some engagement in the fight and thought as to what abilities to use. 

My vision is this: PvP, Coliseum, middle node: you throw or place a rifle turret up on a pillar platform, so it won't get cleaved, and everyone ignores it because it hasn't fired. A dragonhunter faces you with their directional shield up, but the turret is behind them. You activate it and it crits for a lot, suddenly the tables are turned. He tries to heal, but your rocket turret is ready to knock him down and line up a rifle 5. People are coming around the corner to stop you, but your thumper turret by the hedges activates on your command and launches them all. Etc.

Having skills not come directly from you is huge, and can give excellent planning and choice in trapping areas, also range. A few classes can be in two places at once, like thief or mesmer, but not for 5 mins straight. Turrets right now are boring and broken. They suck at everything they try to do. They should be for strategy and controlling the battlefield. Want autoattack brr? They gave us that. It's called Mechanist. It's practically a case study on the issues of minions and their ability to tank the game for you. For awhile, afk farmers fought between necro vs turret spam, but the king is now obvious. I want to distance the potential of turrets from that garbage.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Matoro.9708