Cele has to go

[Gorani.7205]

Celestial stats are not the problem, when they would create true hybrid builds. They are the problem, when your broken specialisation balance is so off the rails, it excels on damage output and/or boon abundance even with celestial stats.

Core classes are hardly mentioned here, because most of them still retain some sort of need to go full power or full condi to be deadly. It is the specialisations from the expansions that keep madness rolling out.

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 hours ago, Gorani.7205 said:

Celestial stats are not the problem, when they would create true hybrid builds. They are the problem, when your broken specialisation balance is so off the rails, it excels on damage output and/or boon abundance even with celestial stats.

Core classes are hardly mentioned here, because most of them still retain some sort of need to go full power or full condi to be deadly. It is the specialisations from the expansions that keep madness rolling out.

 

What feels ironic is this is the same issue as back in the power days or even before the Feb nerf, the discussion between glass-cannon and tank builds. When the glass couldn't insta-nuke a player they called foul, why do we have tanky builds. Still feel the Nerf patch came about because ANet saw too many glass-cannon vs glass-cannon melt each other. I would agree in the core classes its more of choosing Power or Condi based on the way the class was set up. Some are close to hybids and over time more elites have been created in classes without that to also have hybrid builds. To me it seems like they are trying to make sure each class has one of the following: power build, condi build, hybrid build, heal build, support build. Next expansion I would expect that when you look at each class you will see the next elite will fill in the missing gaps that the class doesn't already have.

When we get a hybrid core/elite the player has to go thru the same question that occurred in the power day, do I go glass-cannon hybrid or more tanky hybrid or something in the middle. The ones that want to go hybrid can't just choose power or condi since they would nerf the point of a hybrid so they have to mix and match the glass versions of both power and condi to reach optimal damage output. The ones that want to go tanky have to do the samething. People looking to take a middle ground of that go Cele. They aren't going to do more damage and they aren't going to be as tanky.  Hence why I say if its certain skills on the hybrids that are over performing they need reviewed. I am not saying there aren't any, just that nuking a gear set is not a good solution if it's issues with the newer elites then review them. 

[oatsnjuices.1698]

I think celestial is ok and nerfing is counter productive. If you don't want to lose a fight then stay in the zerg. Or practice and get better. There are allot of people that love to duel, duel them. If you want to roam, pick a class that has a good roaming build, ie. mobility, stun breaks, stuns, reflects, invulns, and ofc damage. Whatever it takes to win. Don't hate a class because it beats you, play it or ask around for what beats it and play that. Find your niche, and if you just want to get away, play engineer and slot a tank build that will get you to your zerg, or an ele, warrior, necro. Every class has a get away almost unkillable build that you can use until you get to where you are going and then you can shift to what you want to run. Or you can use that unkillable class to troll, that can be fun.

 

All I'm saying is don't get hung up on one build and expect it to outperform everything. You must fine tune your build, tweak it to squeeze its potential, and then master it. Keep in mind what you want it to do, if it doesn't fit the role then you must change the build or class. Have fun in the game of war and realize, if no one dies then it mine as well be open world pve perish the thought. And if celestials go away, the glass cannon and aids condi meta will return, and you will kill or die in 3 seconds. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by oatsnjuices.1698

[captrowdy.9561]

Folks that complain about cele are probably running around with full zerk and wondered away from the tag too long and got plowed. It’s not a huge deal. Nerfing it would kill the builds that small portion of players use to roam and have fun. Not everyone wants to run in a group with support all the time. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 8/30/2022 at 6:57 AM, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

When it comes to WvW, and roaming in particular, sites like metabattle have always been very inaccurate. Just random builds that random players put there, because they don't know any better.

Yea, having 75% more stats totally doesn't matter ...

Feel free to run arround in random green gear, if that's what you think.

I once watched a Thief delete one player after another while holding fireworks. If that's what you think, then you don't know what players are really capable of in this game with their skill levels.

 

The difference isn't just 10x in PvE, its at least 10x in WvW too.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, captrowdy.9561 said:

Folks that complain about cele are probably running around with full zerk and wondered away from the tag too long and got plowed. It’s not a huge deal. Nerfing it would kill the builds that small portion of players use to roam and have fun. Not everyone wants to run in a group with support all the time. 

It's mostly roamers complaining about cele tho. And rightfully so. Cele being op kills more builds than it enables. Because most good cele builds would also work just fine with old cele or different stats.

(I'm a roaming cele abuser myself)

49 minutes ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I once watched a Thief delete one player after another while holding fireworks. If that's what you think, then you don't know what players are really capable of in this game with their skill levels.

 

The difference isn't just 10x in PvE, its at least 10x in WvW too.

The game can't be balanced arround trash players that will get farmed by anything regardless of balance.

Edited September 1, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:44 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Let's count the armor sets on metabattle roaming to see what's plaguing WvW, if I didnt miss some:

9 Celestial
18 Marauder (or mostly Marauder mixes)
11 Berserker (or mostly Berserker mixes)
6 Trailblazer (or mostly Trailblazer mixes)

Conclusion: Buff condi, nerf power, delete Marauder.

What, it's not what people want?

 

On 8/30/2022 at 3:53 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Challenge accepted then!

Going to guildjen which has made the count real easy:

20 Celestial

33 Power

9 Condition

Conclusion: buff condi, nerf power, delete marauder and berserker.

Happy?

 

On 8/30/2022 at 8:40 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

... and yet, dont people still cry buff power when a vast majority of the meta builds are power? 

 

Imagine equating theoretical build options with actual in-game representation. 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

 

 

 

Imagine equating theoretical build options with actual in-game representation. 

Fair enough I imagine, please then go ahead and post the actual ingame representation and data to back everything up?

[Kozumi.5816]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:53 PM, Yunari.9065 said:

Anet really stop it Now! WvW Roaming is so hard plagued by this carry Set it sucks! 

They outright refuse to make roaming even remotely tolerable. Why? Who knows.

Roaming only gets worse every patch.

inb4  banned for having an opinion

Edited September 1, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Avion Blade.4869]

On 8/30/2022 at 5:10 AM, Grebcol.5984 said:

Cele is to strong with classes which does have boonspam. Gw2 was and should be a game where skill matters more than Passives, Stats and Gear.

The boons are needed to help (help I say) survive in outnumbered situations like 1v2, 3 or whatever maybe 2v5 and the like. 

Without it, players will have more deaths than usual; and battles will end faster than they do now. It goes both ways, so right now the meta gives all the players access to that to attempt to even things out, and yes, there are classes which do boonspam for a better advantage than others; for me I just wait for it to expire while doing the normal attacks then save specials when their boons expire or are removed. To be fair, I use my boons and spike them when their boons expire, so its a game of "watch their yellow icons".

Cele is defeated by dps with boon-remover traits and weapons. You know its working if they just pull back and run the other way in a straight line then re-engage when their boons are up.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Avion Blade.4869

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Avion Blade.4869 said:

The boons are needed to help (help I say) survive in outnumbered situations like 1v2, 3 or whatever maybe 2v5 and the like. 

Without it, players will have more deaths than usual; and battles will end faster than they do now. It goes both ways, so right now the meta gives all the players access to that to attempt to even things out, and yes, there are classes which do boonspam for a better advantage than others; for me I just wait for it to expire while doing the normal attacks then save specials when their boons expire or are removed. To be fair, I use my boons and spike them when their boons expire, so its a game of "watch their yellow icons".

Cele is defeated by dps with boon-remover traits and weapons. You know its working if they just pull back and run the other way in a straight line then re-engage when their boons are up.

You know why gw2 competitive viewership is soo low? It is because fights are being dragged on for too long for no real reason. Celestial's problem is adding expertise and concentration with no drawback, these 2 stats alone increases celestial stats value exponentially. 
No one wants to see fights that drag on 10 min + and get no real result in a sustainfest. 

[Yuyo.5697]

Get good and have a support with you

[Aeolus.3615]

Delete/change minstrells 1st and then see if celestial need to me changed.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Melian.5368]

I have almost all roaming builds set up, yet I can only achieve anything with mad sustain cele builds, because every other roamer now plays them. It's always cele fire weaver, cele catalyst, cele willbender, the occasional cele p/p daredevil, cele mirage or virtuoso. Sometimes there are trailblazer core necros, but their tank comes from much toughness + infinite cleanse, and trailblazer mirage and their tank comes from mobility. 

In the PoF times, I could actually roam with survival/beastmastery soulbeast and actually achieve something. Now it can't do anything. Same with power mirage, you just need to be perfect with your invuls, and even then most of the time it's not enough. Warrior roaming is completely dead, only time i could kill a tanky class was I made a marauder+cleric shout bladesworn and enemy was dead when all my skills went on cd. 10 more seconds of sustain and I would be dead. Same with revenant. High sustain vindicator builds are so unfun to play. Roaming meta has been a mess since cele buffs, and this was made worse with unbalanced EoD specs.

If you don't take a mad sustain build, this happens to you:

Grenade scrapper with dome + superspeed oneshots you. It's ok cuz if they miss, they can dome+superspeed away.

Mechanist dumps an arsenal on you. It's ok cuz if you dodge, they can port + boost away.

Core mesmer / chronomancer dumps shatters + mantra on you. It's ok cuz if you dodge they can invis and port away, or strike again.

Thief oneshots you. It's ok cuz it's thief, it does whatever it wants.

And then there are willbenders, weavers, catalysts, core necros, condi mirages etc, they come and you die because you can't kill them.

The issue is, they took skill out of the equation. You just don't have enough tools to compete. I understand not every class can defeat every class, it is a rock/paper/scissors type of arrangement, but the balance here is in favor of rock, so everybody plays rock.

Too many times now I play with my sustain builds and we fight with the enemy for 10+ minutes without any of us getting below 50% hp. This is just ridiculous.

[Chips.7968]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:14 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Based upon data we have, Marauder is currently the most common set in the game in all game modes, as it offers an intense balance between damage and survivability, especially on low health classes.

One minute. Let me go create 15 celestial builds in order to CONCLUSIVELY PROVE that celestial is the most common set.

 

I mean, if it's on meta battle it *must* be undeniable proof. Right? People only run meta battle builds. Right? Infact, you can't even MAKE a build in gw2 without it being one that exists in metabattle. Try to save one in game. Go on. It'll say "no, this doesn't exist on metabattle... and metabattle is the bible of all!"

Basically saying flawed argument you have is flawed.

 

The REAL thing to look at is the new specialisations. How many of those on there are celestial? How many are maurauder? How many of each of those are currently being seen in game etc.

A build on meta battle can be historical as well as current. It can indicate a *build* but not usage as well.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Chips.7968

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

20 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

One minute. Let me go create 15 celestial builds in order to CONCLUSIVELY PROVE that celestial is the most common set.

 

I mean, if it's on meta battle it *must* be undeniable proof. Right? People only run meta battle builds. Right? Infact, you can't even MAKE a build in gw2 without it being one that exists in metabattle. Try to save one in game. Go on. It'll say "no, this doesn't exist on metabattle... and metabattle is the bible of all!"

Basically saying flawed argument you have is flawed.

 

The REAL thing to look at is the new specialisations. How many of those on there are celestial? How many are maurauder? How many of each of those are currently being seen in game etc.

A build on meta battle can be historical as well as current. It can indicate a *build* but not usage as well.

I'm not sure why players keep pointing to Metabattle, GW2Efficiency shows alot of info too and is actually what I was refering to. Granted, it only represents the most dedicated parts of the playerbase, but still.

 

Honestly I'm not trying to be mean here, but you can play pretty much any content in the game and rarely see anyone using this gear, just by looking at the damage/healing/etc they do. Full Celestial gear only shows up on a few specific PvE and WvW builds (most of them on Ele, but a few on others like Guardian, Thief).

 

I'm starting to wonder if people on these forums even play the game sometimes.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Chips.7968]

5 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I'm starting to wonder if people on these forums even play the game sometimes.

*reads all posts made by user in the thread*

*sees zero reference to GW2Efficiency until suddenly claiming they're referring to GW2Efficiency*

*sees player claim they saw someone with fireworks defeat another*

*claims stats make little difference*

*fireworks do zero dmg, player defeated by utility skills and condi build*

*also knows that thieves used to be able to kill players without using a single weapon skill via trapper runes and utilities only*

*but stats doesn't matter, you could use zerk stats and still player would have won because skillz*

*looks at above contradictions and wonders if player even plays game*

Yep.  

[Kozumi.5816]

On 9/2/2022 at 7:09 AM, Melian.5368 said:

Too many times now I play with my sustain builds and we fight with the enemy for 10+ minutes without any of us getting below 50% hp. This is just ridiculous.

This is the gameplay that nearly killed WoWs PvP during BFA. Blizzard then went the complete opposite direction in their next expansion(Shadowlands) by making burst high and fights end quickly. Shadowlands has seen very high PvP participation rates since then, the highest in many expansions.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

This is the gameplay that nearly killed WoWs PvP during BFA. Blizzard then went the complete opposite direction in their next expansion(Shadowlands) by making burst high and fights end quickly. Shadowlands has seen very high PvP participation rates since then, the highest in many expansions.

But if i recall there was no midle ground on bursting either, went from one extreme to another, i dont want back the 30k rev hammer aoe's every 2 seconds... nor the ranger  40k with non zerker.

Wich is always the issue with game dev's they alwys change from one bad extreme to the oposite bad extreme.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Norseman.4280]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:25 PM, Guirssane.7082 said:

 

I remember when roaming actually took skill without Cele. 

It didn't though. There has always been OP set, class, stat combo's. And people always used them. And boasted of how good they are and showed everyone on YouTube.
And everyone not using those sets complained, and rightfully, called out those players for playing EZ mode.

Rinse, wash, repeat.

Bunker, glass cannon, zerker, marauder, some variation of condi.

At least celestial is something new. And it's different since hybrid builds are finally a thing. And I just don't find it as OP as everyone claims. I've seen worse in this game.