The actual balance of Mechanist

[stormemperor.3745]

On 8/31/2022 at 2:02 PM, GWstinkt.6094 said:

I believe the solution to this problem is 

to keep mechanist as is, add +10-30% damage to other classes including Holosmith.

Edited September 9, 2022 by stormemperor.3745

[Adzekul.3104]

2 hours ago, stormemperor.3745 said:

to keep mechanist as is, add +10-30% damage to other classes including Holosmith.

To add my voice to this, I post the following:

The "Arenanet Dev Team of the Past" would nerf mechanist, rendering it either unplayable or unpopular. Given the current meta, I feel this would be a very bad approach in this circumstance because the easy of playability, of, say, power DPS mech is at such a level that it enables masses of players to engage in end-game content. Some will simply milk it for as long as it lasts and never use the opportunity to up their game by exploring adjacent specs, but many will learn those adjacent specs (like alac mech or heal alac mech or a tank variant) which will really enable those players to progress in their knowledge and capabilities within the game. This, in principle, should be the goal.

And so, I propose for the consideration of those responsible for PvE balance, that the next step in this journey should be to do exactly NOTHING to Mechanist, AND take 1 or 2 other specs (see suggestions later***) and raise them to the same level of "ease of playability" as power DPS mechanist (dps output, low-intensity (LI) play style and low-to-moderate boon support). Some will complain about specs being "brain dead" but consider the range of play style within your customer base. There needs to be a range of LI (low intensity) builds, just like there need to be builds with crazy complexity (and dps output + group support to match).

*** Suggested specs for buffing in the PvE endgame space (maybe some are fine, cuz my view is a bit limited, but them pick some alternatives based upon your analysis):

• Reaper. Many people look down their noses at Reaper in raids and end-game PvE content. See recent tier lists from content creators.
• Power Weaver? Might be a tonne of work to fix this one, lol
• Condi Harbinger?

[Infusion.7149]

11 minutes ago, Adzekul.3104 said:

To add my voice to this, I post the following:

The "Arenanet Dev Team of the Past" would nerf mechanist, rendering it either unplayable or unpopular. Given the current meta, I feel this would be a very bad approach in this circumstance because the easy of playability, of, say, power DPS mech is at such a level that it enables masses of players to engage in end-game content. Some will simply milk it for as long as it lasts and never use the opportunity to up their game by exploring adjacent specs, but many will learn those adjacent specs (like alac mech or heal alac mech or a tank variant) which will really enable those players to progress in their knowledge and capabilities within the game. This, in principle, should be the goal.

And so, I propose for the consideration of those responsible for PvE balance, that the next step in this journey should be to do exactly NOTHING to Mechanist, AND take 1 or 2 other specs (see suggestions later***) and raise them to the same level of "ease of playability" as power DPS mechanist (dps output, low-intensity (LI) play style and low-to-moderate boon support). Some will complain about specs being "brain dead" but consider the range of play style within your customer base. There needs to be a range of LI (low intensity) builds, just like there need to be builds with crazy complexity (and dps output + group support to match).

*** Suggested specs for buffing in the PvE endgame space (maybe some are fine, cuz my view is a bit limited, but them pick some alternatives based upon your analysis):

• Reaper. Many people look down their noses at Reaper in raids and end-game PvE content. See recent tier lists from content creators.
• Power Weaver? Might be a tonne of work to fix this one, lol
• Condi Harbinger?

Why would you want to buff power reaper to power mechanist levels of degeneracy? It isn't going to be a strong build unlike condi scourge for most fights simply due to the reaper shroud and there's no getting around that. The moment you take damage your shroud uptime dips and epidemic does more or less nothing on a power build. Power harbinger is unlikely to be a strong power spec since staff, axe, and dagger don't seem to be able to match greatsword and the  power traits aren't there.

The (power) specs Arenanet should focus on are the ones that already have a decent level of DPS with autoattacks such as:

• power virtuoso (which can be fully ranged if you run greatsword instead of sword+focus),  --- you can probably camp dagger+sword but I'm not sure though
• power soulbeast (which can do 30K+ camping double axes due to the OWP changes but is also fully ranged),  --- usually strongest burst other than bladesworn
• power DH (which just needs some resolution buffs and has the scepter or longbow ranged option), --- previously had greatsword along with scepter+focus build  but now normally greatsword with sword+focus that capitalizes on trap burst
• power bladesworn (which is viable on any boss that is stationary much of the time but is weak on splitting), --- strong burst but gameplay is problematic with movement of boss or any splitting
• power daredevil --- is playable and generally regarded as one of highest autoattacks , but doesn't have a way to keep up DPS uptime unless taking pistol mainhand
• power herald (which arguably is in a good spot if hammer is competitive with staff in CC and sustained DPS) --- previously had the shiro+glint toggle 30K DPS build but not very good burst DPS
• possibly power holo (which should do more than mechanist benchmark-wise, uses grenades or rifle to keep up DPS uptime) --- previously had rifle PBM build with strong burst

I would not expect any major buffs in terms of accessibility for catalyst as Arenanet constantly nerf it due to <1% of the playerbase. Condi harbinger is already doing decently, it's just not as easy as condi scourge due to shroud management. Similarly I don't expect vindicator to be an "easy to play" spec for people since it has one dodge, which no class has as a downside except PVP/WVW mirage. Condi builds other than weaver , condi ren, condi untamed, and condi mech with 3+ kits generally aren't overly difficult to execute: see common ones such as CFB, condi specter, condi virtuoso, condi J-drive mech, condi alac mirage, condi scourge, condi tempest with scepter, etc. Condi BS is easy to play but hard to play well.

[draxynnic.3719]

Hrrmn. Of the current elementalist specs, I think tempest has the most opportunity to be LI, since overload-focused playstyles are the opposite of pianoing.

Guardian...firebrand can be reasonably LI, but mantras do require more APM. Maybe dragonhunter could get a build less reliant on stacking modifiers and then bursting.

Mesmer has condi virtuoso.

Necromancer... I feel that reaper is more intuitive, but harbinger could work.

Ranger... would probably need a new spec.

Rev would probably be looking at a non-quickness herald.

Thief...probably Deadeye, although I think any thief elite could work.

Warrior... Spellbreaker is probably simplest to operate overall. Bladesworn kinda works as long as you don't need to move or do ranged attacks.

[prototypedragon.1406]

Idk about you all but given requests for nerfs for a favored class they may just buff it to spite us all 🤔

[Karagee.6830]

5 hours ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

Idk about you all but given requests for nerfs for a favored class they may just buff it to spite us all 🤔

If they don't nerf a spec with 33% representation, then they should simply just close down the balance team and have them do something else. And they may as well not balance anything ever again.

[Aedil.1296]

To be fair I don't mind Mecha as is now. After work when my brain is totally melted is good to be able to play without getting headache. 

It doesn't take anything away from other classes after all. 

Another consideration I tought about is that it's a good class for people with certain disabilities as it allows them to be effective without pressing too many buttons, which is an idea I like. 

I dunno I'm for freedom for all! No one is preventing u to play any class cause Mecha exists and other classes can still be as effective when played well (not Ele that's too much, Ele needs semplification lol) 

[Jokubas.4265]

When I tried Mechanist in beta I thought "oh wow, this is far and above anything I've ever played, this is hilariously overpowered." I only recently finally made a Mechanist in live, but it's given me a new perspective on it.

I think "reliability" is a good way to put it.

One of the best things about this game, to this day, is the open co-op experience. How even if you play "solo", when you run into other players they will probably help you, and you can help them, without having to stop and coordinate groups and content. In that context, being self-sufficient is not as important as it is in most other games.

On the other hand, after spending most of the last decade in this game trying really hard and still struggling, the Mechanist is a breath of fresh air.

I was gathering up some Hero Points on a non-Mechanist alt, and barely managed to solo a nasty Heart of Thorns Champion. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to pull it off, but I took a deep breath, realized the enemy had a predictable pattern, and tried my best to keep up with it.

I was proud of myself for pulling it off, but it didn't feel good. It was so much work for what's a fairly low tier enemy in the grand scheme of things.

As Mechanist I still do my job. I still stay out of red circles and use CC at the right time, but I don't have to worry that even just sneezing during a fight is going to get me killed.

I absolutely would prefer that other Professions get brought up to the level of "reliability" of the Mechanist, rather than Mechanist be nerfed. I like that this game has a lot of strategy even in non-boss encounters and don't want to see that just disappear forever, but Mechanist has seriously been what I needed right now in the game.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Jokubas.4265

[Karagee.6830]

5 hours ago, Aedil.1296 said:

It doesn't take anything away from other classes after all. 

No, you're right 33% representation in raids doesn't take away from the other TWENTY SIX elite specialisations. And no, the fact that people demand mechanists for all roles in the party except quickness doesn't take away from other classes.

Should be 100% representation before they do something about it.

Mechanist with 20% less damage would still be played, so stop whining or find a better argument than disabled people.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Jokubas.4265 said:

I absolutely would prefer that other Professions get brought up to the level of "reliability" of the Mechanist, rather than Mechanist be nerfed. I like that this game has a lot of strategy even in non-boss encounters and don't want to see that just disappear forever, but Mechanist has seriously been what I needed right now in the game.

I think that's ultimately going to be the philosophical question for ArenaNet to figure out. Mechanist's reliability means it makes a suitable reference point, since it represents something that most players can reliably achieve. So the process from here probably goes something along the lines of:

1) Decide how much damage they want a 'typical' player to be able to dish out.

2) Calibrate Mechanist to do about that much damage. (Without requiring an optimal rotation).

3) Calibrate other specialisations intended to do DPS so that they do similar DPS under realistic combat conditions with typical raiders (or strikers, or whatever).

4) Don't worry if a build performs better when played perfectly, or if it performs particularly well in a specific encounter.

5) If a single spec begins to become too prevalent, identify why and fix it, whether by nerfing it or buffing the alternatives. (Keeping in mind that people are likely to be slower to react to balance changes in fractals than other content.) 

[Infusion.7149]

There wouldn't be a major problem if the damage was coming from the mechanist and not the mech. More importantly, not from 1200 range. That's the case for condi mechanist for the most part, and I am rather sure most unbiased players would say 3 kit and even J-Drive condi mech is fine after the revisions that have already taken place.

It's disgusting when your preferred engineer spec is power holo and people tell you to play power mechanist because realistically unless you are snowcrows level you'd do less damage than some person autoattacking. The only other power specs that remotely see that level of play are power virtuoso (sword variant can boon strip too) and power soulbeast (is able to camp axes or use longbow for push role) these days since DH pulls aren't as relevant when you have a virtuoso, deadeye for kiting or power daredevil when instant high CC is warranted, sometimes power bladesworn for people chasing big numbers if it can stay in melee range, sometimes herald (rather than vindicator) but herald doesn't have a true ranged weapon since hammer isn't great even after buffs. Power ele (catalyst has high skill cap and only 600 range on hammer and all other variants are usually condi), power necro (reaper especially) , power berserker are mostly gone.

That's what happens when encounter design is shifted to heavy movement which favors condi, the power specs largely are either ranged or fade out.

[draxynnic.3719]

27 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

 power virtuoso (sword variant can boon strip too) 

Greatsword variant can, too, just not as much of it, and if Phantasmal Disenchanter isn't enough and you have to hold back Phantasmal Berserker for boonstripping, that's a big hit to your DPS.

 

22 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why would you want to buff power reaper to power mechanist levels of degeneracy? It isn't going to be a strong build unlike condi scourge for most fights simply due to the reaper shroud and there's no getting around that. The moment you take damage your shroud uptime dips and epidemic does more or less nothing on a power build. Power harbinger is unlikely to be a strong power spec since staff, axe, and dagger don't seem to be able to match greatsword and the  power traits aren't there.

 Had a bit of thought on this, and I think part of the answer is 'gravedigger spam'. It's pretty close to being intended behaviour that for 50% of the fight you can just press 2 and anything else is an added bonus. Reaper is a build that's not really used for much in instanced squad content, but the shroud helps with survivability (even if that survivability comes at the cost of DPS if you take hits), and if greatsword was buffed a bit, it could probably reach an acceptable baseline damage just from greatsword and utilities without risking super-buffing other necromancer builds in the process. Get it to somewhere where it can reliably do about as much damage as power mechanist does without the shroud, and actually getting to use the shroud can bump it up from there, and it can probably manage to be fairly effective while still being relatively low intensity. Furthermore, off the top of my head reaper doesn't gain significant benefits from weaponswapping to the same weapon like mirage and daredevil can, so it can be balanced so that the expectation is that you'll camp greatsword in melee, but you can have a ranged weapon to swap to if necessarily that does less damage, but allows you to still make a reasonable contribution from range.

I don't think we're looking for people playing this sort of build to be taking the epidemic role on encounters that call for it and that sort of thing, just something that allows them to do reliable damage while focusing on the mechanics rather than a complex rotation.

Edited September 10, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Asum.4960]

On 8/31/2022 at 11:26 PM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

In a relative scale it is quite strong at the moment, because of the big nerfs that power builds received.  On the absolute scale, 26k from auto attacking is how much damage the old Auto-Attack Rev did before June.  I had been running around the overworld with a damage equivalent build for years, yet nobody complained that it was too strong. 

There is a huge difference between doing that with a Sword limited by a 130 range, and a Rifle with 1200 range (+ pet mechanic). Range is a massive component you completely discounted in your AA comparison.

Additionally, while Rev was indeed completely sleeper busted for years in OW/Solo/low-man play (pre Battlescars nerf), that AA build never transitioned into public consciousness or group content dominance (and still it was rightfully nerfed). 

 

The problem isn't per se the damage numbers. It's the same reason players jumped on Scourge not so long ago - while it wasn't topping Golem Benchmark charts, it provided a fairly relaxed/safe style of play with very high DPS uptime due to being (900) ranged in real scenarios. 

 

Mechanist is basically Scourge 3.0+ now, if Scourge had no LF mechanic, no Shade placement, no AA-chain to finish, no condis to self-inflict and time transfers, no ICD's to manage with Dhuumfire and Demonic Lore, no skill priorities, could set all Shroud skills to automatically cast on CD on Target, was 1200 range rather than 900, had a major pet mechanic - and least problematic out of these, even more DPS. 

There is Low-Intensity (which is great and imo good for the game), and then there is Mechanist.

I've recently set up my Mech just to see if people weren't overselling it's power level and ease of use, and frankly, I'm really enjoying it - I mean what isn't to enjoy, you just press tab and roll your face over 1-5, toss some Grenades if you are feeling fancy, and you are top DPS. The only thing you barely have to be conscious for is trying to stay somewhat close to supports for boons and healing. 

Other than that it really doesn't need any player input requiring thought for essentially 100% DPS uptime (and top performance through that), despite any mechanics, due to 1200 range.

In OW/solo play it's just as outstanding. While Rectifier Signet and Big Boomer aren't the greatest sustain, it's more than made up for in that one can just circle around at 1200 range AA'ing while having a 45k+ HP Pet to tank, with built in strong very low CD CC, as well as easy build potential for perma 25 Might, Fury and Quickness. Probably also underrated is it's massive cleave potential for being a 1200 range projectile spec, due to the unlike with Harbinger, well implemented pierce, as well as explosions, orbital strikes, etc.

 

Including core, there are 36 specialisations in the game now. In Raids and Strikes, Mechanist is already represented by ~33% of play out of these now.

The problem is going to be how quickly people get used to a new path of least resistance. Mechs performance isn't the issue, but that it gets there via unprecedented ease of use and lack of thoughtful player input. 

The longer Mech stays intact in it's current form, the more players GW2 is genuinely going to lose when (or if) it finally is addressed, when players are faced with what will feel like "the chore of actually having to play the game again". 

Doesn't matter how much you enjoy a game, after cheating (and that's really the closest I can compare Mech to) it's really hard to go back to playing legitimately. 

 

Alternatively ofc, Anet can undertake a years long effort of trivialising every other class and the whole game with it, exponentially more so than any past effort. But at that point we are really not far off from honestly just allowing botting/hacking, because there won't be much active and thoughtful gameplay left to enjoy anyway (and there may be merit in doing this as development winds down and populations dwindle - but as I understand Anet still wants to support the game for a few years to come).

Edited September 12, 2022 by Asum.4960

[pallas.8150]

An easy spec should do less damage and have less access to supports.

A harder spec should be able to do more damage and have access to more supports.

You can both do things - but the one putting in the time and effort should be able to do it better.

 

 

 

[Karagee.6830]

47 minutes ago, pallas.8150 said:

An easy spec should do less damage and have less access to supports.

A harder spec should be able to do more damage and have access to more supports.

You can both do things - but the one putting in the time and effort should be able to do it better.

 

 

 

How people don't understand that taking 4k (benchmark mind you, it would be lower in less ideal situations) baseline damage is not gonna make Mechanist disappear is frankly beyond human comprehension. It would still be very usable and because how easy it is to use, it would have solid representation, probably more than any other spec. It's just that the next steps in terms of difficulty like virtuoso or scourge would take some of its share if they were doing reliably more damage in actual encounters (and more complex build even more than that).

What it's frankly baffling is that a minority of people argue that mechanist should stay top dps in the pug meta on a AA based build. 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

There is a huge difference between doing that with a Sword limited by a 130 range, and a Rifle with 1200 range (+ pet mechanic). Range is a massive component you completely discounted in your AA comparison.

Additionally, while Rev was indeed completely sleeper busted for years in OW/Solo/low-man play (pre Battlescars nerf), that AA build never transitioned into public consciousness or group content dominance (and still it was rightfully nerfed). 

It's the fallacy of finite definition.  To accurately describe reality would require an infinite amount of words, so it is disingenuous to latch on to whatever factor wasn't included, and hypocritical to then do it yourself.  There were a lot of small differences in how each of the builds and strategies worked, but at the end of the day I used the old rev AA build to solo champion and legendary mobs without dodging, and it did comparable damage to the current day rifle mech.  

[Asum.4960]

48 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It's the fallacy of finite definition.  To accurately describe reality would require an infinite amount of words, so it is disingenuous to latch on to whatever factor wasn't included, and hypocritical to then do it yourself.  There were a lot of small differences in how each of the builds and strategies worked, but at the end of the day I used the old rev AA build to solo champion and legendary mobs without dodging, and it did comparable damage to the current day rifle mech.  

No, it is not. 130 range vs. 1200 range is hardly a "small difference" which is understandable to overlock or bad faith for me to highlight. Neither in casual nor endgame content. That amount of flexiability and DPS-uptime due to such range is the equivalent of thousands of DPS in endgame on some fights, and a massive difference in self-sustain needs for solo play.

 

Also Rev used to be the single most overpowered solo profession in the game, by a factor of 2 in performance compared to the rest of S-Tier options. Using it's (pre-nerf) performance as a justification for Mech being fine now - while it's even better than that with 1200 range, a Pet tank and meta shaping performance in terms of DPS and Support in endgame/group content, is silly (or should I say, disingenuous). 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Karagee.6830]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It's the fallacy of finite definition.  To accurately describe reality would require an infinite amount of words, so it is disingenuous to latch on to whatever factor wasn't included, and hypocritical to then do it yourself.  There were a lot of small differences in how each of the builds and strategies worked, but at the end of the day I used the old rev AA build to solo champion and legendary mobs without dodging, and it did comparable damage to the current day rifle mech.  

Show me the 33% rev representation in raids in whatever period of your choosing and then you will have a semi-reasonable, semi-intelligible point and we can debate the merits of your claims. Next.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Karagee.6830

[anbujackson.9564]

The ones saying that other spec/classes should just be buffed (to the same level):

Are you even aware how much you would need to change certain professions to get the same effectiveness? Like at all? 

The spec needs to be ranged, able to move freely and only needs to press 5 buttons max. How would you do that on Warrior? Elementalist? Revenant? Thief? Ranger? Like literally any build?

Just having a similiar dps number as a melee spec on the golem wont change that mech performs better. 

[Deepcuts.9740]

Plenty of times, in RAIDS, Strikes, Fractals and metas I see Power DPS Mechanists doing way lower DPS than me, also a Power DPS Mechanist. And no, they were not healers or support. And that consistently throught the encounter. Fully leveld 455 chars with legendary gear and food/utility.
I bet those people would have the same if not bigger gap in DPS if we were playing other class.

Those are the people complaining about the Mechanist, in reality asking to bring everyone down to their level.

 

When I rarely meet a Mechanist out DPSing me, I strive to match their level, sometimes even asking for tips and build, not hurry on forums to yell NERF.

Many people forget that if Mechanist is such a low intensity build as some suggest (autoattack), everyone would get DPS numbers in the same tight range. Which is NOT happening. Found zero logical responses when it comes to this issue so far. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

58 minutes ago, Deepcuts.9740 said:

Plenty of times, in RAIDS, Strikes, Fractals and metas I see Power DPS Mechanists doing way lower DPS than me, also a Power DPS Mechanist. And no, they were not healers or support. And that consistently throught the encounter. Fully leveld 455 chars with legendary gear and food/utility.
I bet those people would have the same if not bigger gap in DPS if we were playing other class.

Those are the people complaining about the Mechanist, in reality asking to bring everyone down to their level.

 

When I rarely meet a Mechanist out DPSing me, I strive to match their level, sometimes even asking for tips and build, not hurry on forums to yell NERF.

Many people forget that if Mechanist is such a low intensity build as some suggest (autoattack), everyone would get DPS numbers in the same tight range. Which is NOT happening. Found zero logical responses when it comes to this issue so far. 

Just go look at wingman stats and see mechanists at or near the top of every single boss.  Your anecdotes don't really hold much sway compared to all those data points clearly showing that this spec overperforms.  The fact that not everyone overperforms with it is irrelevant.  The same is obviously true (and to a greater degree) for every single other spec in the game.

[Asum.4960]

4 hours ago, Deepcuts.9740 said:

Many people forget that if Mechanist is such a low intensity build as some suggest (autoattack), everyone would get DPS numbers in the same tight range. Which is NOT happening. Found zero logical responses when it comes to this issue so far. 

They might not be running Grenade Kit, or not even lazily press 2-5 and literally just autoattack (or genuinely be semi-afk, not retargeting the boss again immediately after some mechanic or movement breaks the AA), lowering their DPS some compared to those actually trying a tiny bit - there is also the distinct possibility they might be experiencing Microsleeps playing the spec, affecting their performance. 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Just go look at wingman stats and see mechanists at or near the top of every single boss.  Your anecdotes don't really hold much sway compared to all those data points clearly showing that this spec overperforms.  The fact that not everyone overperforms with it is irrelevant.  The same is obviously true (and to a greater degree) for every single other spec in the game.

MORE true with most if not all other specs in the game, in fact, due to greater reliance on rotations.

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil. I've removed some posts.
Regards.

[Jokubas.4265]

I came up with an analogy to explain why I think the "reliability" aspect is important.

I started this game as a Mesmer. By the time I realized I might like other Professions more... I would say I had invested too much time into Mesmer, but it wasn't just that. I was way better at doing damage and cleaving enemies as basically any other profession, but if the enemies were even reasonably tough, the difficulty would shoot up a wall. It doesn't matter how much damage you're doing if the enemy is glued to you and hurts you faster than your healing skill recharges.

As Mesmer, well, my Illusions take the hits. The only reason why I was even able to stick with the game long enough to understand things is because I could usually at least outlast most things when push came to shove just by keeping a constant stream of illusions to distract my foes. The problem was, it usually wasn't fun. It felt like my options were die a lot without succeeding, or succeed slowly without having fun*.

Mechanist frees you up to actually have fun. That's not to say I don't think it should be adjusted. For instance, while I've found content that melts the golem (largely in Heart of Thorns), in most open world content it seems effectively invincible, which is just plain unnecessary. I just think the game could use to have more builds where you don't have to choose between fun and consistently effective.

 

* I have a variant of this dilemma confined to Mesmer alone despite my build being just fine nowadays. If I want to have fun, I switch to Virtuoso. If I want to actually survive the encounter, I switch back to Chronomancer.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Jokubas.4265