Can we scale back wvw legendary armor requirements?

[SlayerXX.7138]

51 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, it is not. When wvw players complain about rewards, it's not a "give me that armor faster" complaint. You're just trying to adapt the general lacking reward structure complaint and use it for your attempt to make whatever armor faster/easier than it is.

Also you've missed the rest of the post, again.

Hilarious. You and infusion missing the point, yet you accused him of missing it. While confusing him with the op of the threadXD.  Missing the context of the previous post.

His point is: Ticket gain is fine, when you can invest 15+ hours in a week. Which is a tall order. Ticket gain is less fine if you only have 6 hours a week. As such the backloaded reward structure my discourage All rounder Player from participating in WvW. Even if you somehow scratch together 15 hours you may not want to spend all of them in WvW. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Sobx.1758]

 

10 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Hilarious. You and infusion missing the point, yet you accused him of missing it. While confusing him with the op of the threadXD.

Not only I wrote "you've missed the rest of the post, again.", but also... no, at no point I've confused him with the op of the thread.

10 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

His point is: Ticket gain is fine, when you can invest 15+ hours in a week. Which is a tall order. Ticket gain is less fine if you only have 6 hours a week. As such the backloaded reward structure my discourage All rounder Player from participating in WvW. Even if you somehow scratch together 15 hours you may not want to spend all of them in WvW. 

Yes, I do understand that and I really know how the wvw reward structure works. But then again Endaris -similarly to OP- keep saying "we could easly do x instead!" and yet... they don't. It's not because they could easly do it, it's because they want to put a pressure on having even easier/faster way to the reward they want 🙃

(because -somehow- if you don't get a full skirmish cap in a week, it suddenly isn't worth getting any at all https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/120780-can-we-scale-back-wvw-legendary-armor-requirements/page/2/#comment-1747528 ?)

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Leger.3724]

2 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

WvW armor is the easiest to get in effort and as such the longest to acquire. All these pure hour comparison are useless without context. In PvP and Raids you generally can't avoid the challenge. Player hit normally a little harder, but you don't have to organize a squad to get beat by XXXWintrader69. In WvW you literally can work towards legendary while killing NPC. You can't do that in Raid. You can progress that way in PvP, but doing so will triple your time needed putting it back on par with WvW.

 

Lmao. You absolutely can. The only argument that holds any validity is it's cheaper and easier to game the system in wvw.

 

I'm fine with looking at making WvW faster and increasing its difficulty.

 

 

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 9/3/2022 at 10:51 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

because -somehow- if you don't get a full skirmish cap in a week, it suddenly isn't worth getting any at al

Yes. It is significant worse per hour. About up to 40% worse. With opportunity cost in mind it may not be worth at all in comparison to a similar activity. That is an absolute fair point to be made. 

Its facts guys look it up, nothing to be confused by.

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Albi.7250

[SlayerXX.7138]

24 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

Lmao. You absolutely can.

Oh pls tell me Wise One. How to you convince 9 other people to carry you through raids with neglectable effort on your part. Or how you get any PvP pips while standing in spawn.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Endaris.1452]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yes, I do understand that and I really know how the wvw reward structure works. But then again Endaris -similarly to OP- keep saying "we could easly do x instead!" and yet... they don't. It's not because they could easly do it, it's because they want to put a pressure on having even easier/faster way to the reward they want 🙃

We're ultimately discussing ticket gain as a reward - personally I don't even specifically talk about legendary armor. I have Envoy's Herald and couldn't care less about how fast you can acquire legendary armor in WvW. You could even say I'm leading the thread "off-topic" because the backloaded ticket-gain is a general issue rather than just a legendary armor thing.

What I care about is the game treating the player's time fairly and equally, no matter whether they spend it in bulk or staggered or what they actually end up spending these tickets on.

[Vavume.8065]

25 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Oh pls tell me Wise One. How to you convince 9 other people to carry you through raids with neglectable effort on your part. 

Pay them.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

I think for me the problem isn't that WvW is too long, it's that there needs to be an open world PvE legendary armour set, so that people who are into PvE don't have to spend so much time in a game mode they don't want to be in (which isn't great for WvWers either).

 

Raid armour just isn't a viable alternative, because the main blocker to raiding isn't PvE, it's finding a group.  Hence so many PvEers go into the other game modes instead, even though the rewards are less shiny and take longer to get.

 

To be clear.  I'm not particularly complaining (though I do think that 10-20 hours per week is higher than it should be).  I fortunately quite like WvW (even if I'd rather stick in open world PvE), so this isn't too much of an issue for me.  But it would be good to have the option.

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Yeah the burden of being the most leachable game mode. I too wish ticket gain would be at least static instead off back loaded. I doubt that would affect the number of leeches by much while being great for people who want to play some WvW without living in it.

WvW armor is the easiest to get in effort and as such the longest to acquire. All these pure hour comparison are useless without context. In PvP and Raids you generally can't avoid the challenge. Player hit normally a little harder, but you don't have to organize a squad to get beat by XXXWintrader69. In WvW you literally can work towards legendary while killing NPC. You can't do that in Raid. You can progress that way in PvP, but doing so will triple your time needed putting it back on par with WvW.

All modes are somewhat equal so it comes down to preference. Everybody who states there is a grieve injustice didn't try the other methods.

Idk about that, open world metas are pretty easy to "leech" as people call it, in their own way. I guess if you mean "the most leechable path to legendary armor," then yeah. But I'm not sure there's any fixing that because WvW, as others more familiar with it than I point out on occasion, is a sandbox game mode. And some of those people who point it out already aren't happy that the main mode of supported play is zerg boon balls. There are other ways of playing WvW, like roaming and scouting, and this is where participation gets tricky because it being "leechable" as you call it is also what ensures that you can get rewarded playing it in a number of different ways. I don't think that should have to mean the rewards are less or come at a slower pace; after all, despite not having a legendary armor set, open world PvE is extremely easy to show up for with low effort and in some cases, have some of the best gold per hour farm rates in the game and playing that way can get you the majority of the rewards in the game. Legendary armor is one of the few things you can't get from it.

So I guess the point I'm trying to get at here is, effort/reward ratio isn't "fair" in this game in general and probably never has been, and I'm not sure it makes sense to try to make it be "fair" because doing so can end up with people playing in a way that is detrimental to the game mode so they can maximize rewards. I think a better design philosophy is to accept that some people will "leech" and instead focus on ensuring that most players feel rewarded for participating so they want to come back.

[Omega.6801]

No.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Problem with the tickets is that they're backloaded. It takes 9 hours to finish diamond, even at diamond rank. The pip system does kinda suck for people below Mithril I suppose.

I think what should be done is that they should give all the tickets before Diamond chest. So, say if you play up to Platinum chest, you will have earned 365.  The later chests would give no tickets but receive better rewards of other kinds.

 

\

As is, the tickets mostly flow to the people that need them the least. People that regularly play WvW will have done the legendary armor and have a bunch of tickets they can't really use.

So this would benefit both sides. WvW veterans that already have legendary armor that would ask "well, what's in this for me", would get better rewards (current WvW rewards are pretty lacluster), and threads like this would decrease a bit. Though I suppose it would still be subject to the same time gate.

In any case, the rewards system as a whole should be given a serious revamp, to encourage other people to play.

Edited September 4, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Endilbiach.4132]

6 hours ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

I think for me the problem isn't that WvW is too long, it's that there needs to be an open world PvE legendary armour set, so that people who are into PvE don't have to spend so much time in a game mode they don't want to be in (which isn't great for WvWers either).

 

Raid armour just isn't a viable alternative, because the main blocker to raiding isn't PvE, it's finding a group.  Hence so many PvEers go into the other game modes instead, even though the rewards are less shiny and take longer to get.

 

To be clear.  I'm not particularly complaining (though I do think that 10-20 hours per week is higher than it should be).  I fortunately quite like WvW (even if I'd rather stick in open world PvE), so this isn't too much of an issue for me.  But it would be good to have the option.

See, I like this idea too, but when I was posting about it roughly a year ago I managed to develop stalkers who apparently dedicate their lives to taking a dump on my threads, so I've stopped posting about it here.

[Labjax.2465]

13 minutes ago, Endilbiach.4132 said:

See, I like this idea too, but when I was posting about it roughly a year ago I managed to develop stalkers who apparently dedicate their lives to taking a dump on my threads, so I've stopped posting about it here.

Oof. I remember I tried to do that topic as an open-minded proposal with details and as I recall, it managed to last a few pages before it devolved into people arguing about how it shouldn't be a thing. For some reason that topic gets some people going like nothing else. It's very bizarre to me too, when I think about it, because like... if you go by amount of content produced, open world PvE is by far the most popular / catered to part of the game. Yet for some reason legendary armor is the line we don't cross there. From open world PvE, you can get, IIRC, 3 legendary trinkets, 16 weapons (more if you count different gens), 7 runes, and 8 sigils, and the only part beyond the mode is time spent for gift of battles... but armor is some huge taboo.

Anyway, I should prob stop talking about it cause it's gonna derail the thread, I assume. Just wanted to vent a little about that.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Honestly, I thought about this for some time, and I've come to think that legendary-tier gear is too grindy overall, (and this is coming from someone with full sets of armor from all game modes, etc.).

 

It was okay back when you wanted to be that one player in a group with that highly unique skin, but now legendaries are just quality of life items meant to serve as an account upgrade, and how they're created has become too grindy for something that should be essential for all players to have on the long-term. We really need legendary gear to be more accessible to make the game better for everyone, as players being limited on what gear and builds they can use is one of the main factors for toxicity amoung end-game enthusiasts.

 

I'd say throw caution to the wind and half the cost of all legendaries in al game modes. They will still be very expensive but reasonable enough to make getting legendary gear the end-game for all players instead of just those who are ultra serious about their long-term commitment to the game. It could easily become the one defining trait of Guild Wars for buildcraft to be a standard feature, even for low-skilled players or those who haven't played the game for years on end.

 

We should come to see full exotic as the absolute baseline (even for older content), full ascended as the "casual-friendly best-in-slot", and full legendary as the "designated goalpost", not to create a vertical grind but to lesson it over time as players only having to gear up once and never again. Creating many different sets of ascended gear should take more time and resources than one legendary set,  not less as it is now.
 

I realise this will be unpopular because of all the "I got mine, no one else can have it unless they put in the same amount of work as i did!" type of players, but still.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

Honestly, I thought about this for some time, and I've come to think that legendary-tier gear is too grindy overall, (and this is coming from someone with full sets of armor from all game modes, etc.).

 

It was okay back when you wanted to be that one player in a group with that highly unique skin, but now legendaries are just quality of life items meant to serve as an account upgrade, and how they're created has become too grindy for something that should be essential for all players to have on the long-term. We really need legendary gear to be more accessible to make the game better for everyone, as players being limited on what gear and builds they can use is one of the main factors for toxicity amoung end-game enthusiasts.

 

I'd say throw caution to the wind and half the cost of all legendaries in al game modes. They will still be very expensive but reasonable enough to make getting legendary gear the end-game for all players instead of just those who are ultra serious about their long-term commitment to the game. It could easily become the one defining trait of Guild Wars for buildcraft to be a standard feature, even for low-skilled players or those who haven't played the game for years on end.
 

I realise this will be unpopular because of all the "I got mine, no one else can have it!" type of players, but still.

Great points all around, especially about limitations on gear and build... that's something I know I've gone on about a number of times on here, but if we want players to be capable, gear needs to be more accessible; as in, less obscure, easier to find what you need or have been recommended to get. I think as a long-term goal making legendary gear more accessible can be part of that and I think one way to make it more accessible without making veteran players feel bad about others getting it more quickly is to separate a lot of it into two main versions; one utility and one utility+skin, and the utility version can be obtained significantly faster and can later be upgraded into the skin version if desired. That way fashion wars is unaffected and people who just want to become part of the buildcraft community or just play around with different specs more or be more useful or whatever, can get there in a shorter amount of time.

Kind of like what is already the case with WvW legendary armor, but on a deeper, more consistent level (with WvW it's technically only kind of like that: you can get the non-flashy version as utility legendary, but the flashy version doesn't even come from the legendary itself, it comes from the ascended skin which has a rank requirement).

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

58 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Oof. I remember I tried to do that topic as an open-minded proposal with details and as I recall, it managed to last a few pages before it devolved into people arguing about how it shouldn't be a thing. For some reason that topic gets some people going like nothing else. It's very bizarre to me too, when I think about it, because like... if you go by amount of content produced, open world PvE is by far the most popular / catered to part of the game. Yet for some reason legendary armor is the line we don't cross there. From open world PvE, you can get, IIRC, 3 legendary trinkets, 16 weapons (more if you count different gens), 7 runes, and 8 sigils, and the only part beyond the mode is time spent for gift of battles... but armor is some huge taboo.

Anyway, I should prob stop talking about it cause it's gonna derail the thread, I assume. Just wanted to vent a little about that.

See I don't think it's a derailment, I think it's an important part of the solution.  As has been said, WvW is the most leechable game mode, so any changes needs to deal with that.  But the obvious question is, why is the game designed in a way that means that PvE players will choose to spend MONTHS playing a game mode they don't want to?

 

An open world PvE armour route solves this issue, and it means that WvW can be made more rewarding without risking an influx of PvE farmers.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I'd say throw caution to the wind and half the cost of all legendaries in al game modes. 

At current material prices, legendaries are almost half already compared to pre EoD (a gen 1 weapon costs barely 700-900 gold by now, gen 2s are around 1.2-1.4k and gen 3 are even cheaper than gen 1s if one doesn't rush the stones).

The issue here is: the "cost" for legendary items will always be to high for some players. We could half the price right now and there would still be players demanding they are made even cheaper.

In fact, when factoring for the far higher gold/hour acquisition methods available, legendary items have dropped even more than half compared to years before. Farming drizzle wood alone can yield multiple legendaries per month, legendaries where 1 took months in the past.

The ultimate question thus is, and it can realistically only be answered with a ton of in-game metrics and data: what is the most healthy approach for the game overall or for unique game modes? Some players keep assuming that faster is always better. That doesn't have to be true.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Silent.6137]

16 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

In fact, when factoring for the far higher gold/hour acquisition methods available, legendary items have dropped even more than half compared to years before. Farming drizzle wood alone can yield multiple legendaries per month, legendaries where 1 took months in the past.

Not getting into any debates regarding the pros and cons this topic but that statement is particularly pertinent to me. It used to take me a few months to craft a legendary item. Since the release of EoD, I've crafted six Gen 3 weapons, which translate to 1 per month. In addition, I have all the variants for two of the weapons. Not only are Gen 3 cheaper to craft but farming certain items on the EoD maps have proven to be a virtual goldmine. And I'm rich, you know. (Well, not really since crafting legendaries are huge drain on your gold unless you sell them).

[Labjax.2465]

1 hour ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

See I don't think it's a derailment, I think it's an important part of the solution.  As has been said, WvW is the most leechable game mode, so any changes needs to deal with that.  But the obvious question is, why is the game designed in a way that means that PvE players will choose to spend MONTHS playing a game mode they don't want to?

 

An open world PvE armour route solves this issue, and it means that WvW can be made more rewarding without risking an influx of PvE farmers.

Huh, that's an interesting way of looking at it. So if I'm following you, then you're kind of saying: boost WvW rewards to match open world PvE + add open world PvE legendary armor (at the same time) and that both improves the situation for people who want to play WvW and at the same time, covers the main major gap open world PvE has in it that would motivate open world PvEers to play WvW only for its increased rewards if it got a significant buff. Makes sense to me.

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

2 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Huh, that's an interesting way of looking at it. So if I'm following you, then you're kind of saying: boost WvW rewards to match open world PvE + add open world PvE legendary armor (at the same time) and that both improves the situation for people who want to play WvW and at the same time, covers the main major gap open world PvE has in it that would motivate open world PvEers to play WvW only for its increased rewards if it got a significant buff. Makes sense to me.

Exactly.  The problem now is that if you say, halved the time it takes to get legendary armour, then there'd be a massive influx of PvE players, because it would then be easily the most appealing option for a lot of (most?) players.

 

Of course, there's a more complex topic on whether having that influx is good or not (that I am not in any way knowledgeable enough to speak on).  But if the design of WvW rewards is intended to encourage players to be there because they enjoy the game mode, rather than because it's an efficient farm, then there are two options:

 

(1) Keep rewards low enough that farmers aren't attracted to the mode

(2) Buff the rewards somewhere else so that farmer's go there

 

As WvW is already arguably the most attractive route to a PvE audience, this issue will become more pronounced if ANet try to reward WvW even more (or, at least, there's a much more complicated approach required).

[Polar.8634]

Legendary armor is given for doing hard content. No surprise there is no open world armor. Wvw armor takes longer to make to compensate easier content in there for majority players. Majority players kill a guard every few min, or capture camp with zerg and get participation. Would be nice if wvw rewards were buffed tho, coz i spend on doing wvw much much more then i would ever earn from doing wvw, so game mode punishes player for playing it. Except for you already full lege ofc

[yoni.7015]

Open World legendary armor set has been discussed over and over. I am still against it and I think that with the emboldened raid mode open world PvE players now have a good path to legendary armor. 

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Just now, Polar.8634 said:

Legendary armor is given for doing hard content...  Majority players kill a guard every few min, or capture camp with zerg and get participation.

 

I don't see how you can believe both of these sentences are true.

 

Heck, PvP legendary armour isn't difficult either.  You just need to participate long enough (and matchmaking in theory should make it reasonably balanced there anyway).

[CrashTestAuto.9108]

Just now, yoni.7015 said:

Open World legendary armor set has been discussed over and over. I am still against it and I think that with the emboldened raid mode open world PvE players now have a good path to legendary armor. 

Emboldened would help if the difficulty of the content was the major hurdle to raiding.  As the major hurdle is getting a group that are available and willing to play at the time you are also available, this doesn't help.

 

To keep this on topic - if raiding was as appealing a route to legendary armour as WvW to PvE players, then this wouldn't be an issue.  Again, WvW is longer, more time consuming, and PvP, and yet is still more appealing to many open world players than raids.  That should be a fair indication that raids are not the solution.

[Labjax.2465]

8 minutes ago, CrashTestAuto.9108 said:

Exactly.  The problem now is that if you say, halved the time it takes to get legendary armour, then there'd be a massive influx of PvE players, because it would then be easily the most appealing option for a lot of (most?) players.

 

Of course, there's a more complex topic on whether having that influx is good or not (that I am not in any way knowledgeable enough to speak on).  But if the design of WvW rewards is intended to encourage players to be there because they enjoy the game mode, rather than because it's an efficient farm, then there are two options:

 

(1) Keep rewards low enough that farmers aren't attracted to the mode

(2) Buff the rewards somewhere else so that farmer's go there

 

As WvW is already arguably the most attractive route to a PvE audience, this issue will become more pronounced if ANet try to reward WvW even more (or, at least, there's a much more complicated approach required).

Yeah, that's a great point. I wonder if that's part of why WvW rewards haven't gotten buffed sooner, despite hearing inklings about them wanting to look at it. Maybe they are concerned it will overwhelm the game mode with PvE farmers if they buff it too much. I mean, it could just be lack of attention to WvW in general lol, but... yeah.