Cal and Roy, since you are removing tradeoffs...

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Gonna have to agree with Kayberz. I'm no warrior main by any means, but what he says is pure logic backed by facts.

The very name of the spec implies extremely heavy dedication to their specialization weapon - the Gunsaber.
As does their lore. Gunsaber is not an option for them, it's their core weapon. The rest of weapons are an option.

Trying to bridge the two is absolutely illogical as these two have extremely polar identities.

Core warrior is a versatile fighter that can pick and choose from veritable arsenal of weapons for any given situation.
Bladesworn is a warrior that sacrificed a lot for gaining extreme mastery of one weapon (the gunsaber).

Bladesworn is not flexible or versatile because he's not supposed to be. He is the antithesis of core warrior, the polar opposite.
Where core warrior adapts and adjusts, Bladesworn just powers through as he chose the path of singlar mastery over versatility.

That's why the idea of restoring core warrior to bladesworn is just absurd.

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

1 minute ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

I'm no warrior main by any means

This is why us warrior mains haven't seen positive changes for so long.

Too many tourists with opinions.

[Broxxgar.6801]

6 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Gonna have to agree with Kayberz. I'm no warrior main by any means, but what he says is pure logic backed by facts.

The very name of the spec implies extremely heavy dedication to their specialization weapon - the Gunsaber.
As does their lore. Gunsaber is not an option for them, it's their core weapon. The rest of weapons are an option.

Trying to bridge the two is absolutely illogical as these two have extremely polar identities.

Core warrior is a versatile fighter that can pick and choose from veritable arsenal of weapons for any given situation.
Bladesworn is a warrior that sacrificed a lot for gaining extreme mastery of one weapon (the gunsaber).

Bladesworn is not flexible or versatile because he's not supposed to be. He is the antithesis of core warrior, the polar opposite.
Where core warrior adapts and adjusts, Bladesworn just powers through as he chose the path of singlar mastery over versatility.

That's why the idea of restoring core warrior to bladesworn is just absurd.

You just destroyed everyone on the forum complaining about Bladesworn and open my eyes to a totally different perspective. I saw Berserker as more close to this, but Bladesworn even surpass Berseker on concept of mastery over versality.

Well done. I like this argument.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Broxxgar.6801

[itspomf.9523]

14 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

The very name of the spec implies extremely heavy dedication to their specialization weapon - the Gunsaber.
As does their lore. Gunsaber is not an option for them, it's their core weapon. The rest of weapons are an option.

I had not looked at it this way before, but reading this, I have to agree with you.

Maybe in that case, it would be fair to rework the animations and basic attack patterns to feel less like greatsword and more like a truly unique kit (similar to say, how those on engineer function as unique "weapons" of their own)?

Since I remember Bladesworn being able to just whip out the gunsaber whenever (I may be wrong, as it was a only weekend a good 9+ months ago), that would help reinforce both the lore and flavor of the specialization, by granting warrior a true "third" option they could swap into and out of.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

5 minutes ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

This is why us warrior mains haven't seen positive changes for so long.

Too many tourists with opinions.

Yes, I'm sure that's the root of warrior problems.
If I make thread on Necro forums (my main profession) suggesting a-net give us superior stab access, and herald level boonshare for allies, I'm sure it'll be "tourists" fault when idea gets rejected...

 

[Kayberz.5346]

2 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

I had not looked at it this way before, but reading this, I have to agree with you.

Maybe in that case, it would be fair to rework the animations and basic attack patterns to feel less like greatsword and more like a truly unique kit (similar to say, how those on engineer function as unique "weapons" of their own)?

Since I remember Bladesworn being able to just whip out the gunsaber whenever (I may be wrong, as it was a only weekend a good 9+ months ago), that would help reinforce both the lore and flavor of the specialization, by granting warrior a true "third" option they could swap into and out of.

Turning gunsaber into an additional 3rd option would doom it into rarely being used

 

In pve you would inevitably just swap between axe/axe and axe/pistol, with no time or reason to switch to gunsaber in the rotation, and in pvp it would just be swapped to to dump artillery slash every once in awhile while you primarily camp greatsword and axe/x or hammer.

 

It was a deliberate design decision to limit bladesworn to gunsaber/x because it forces the gunsaber wielding identity and prevents optimization from ruining the intended theme of the spec

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

2 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Yes, I'm sure that's the root of warrior problems.
If I make thread on Necro forums (my main profession) suggesting a-net give us superior stab access, and herald level boonshare for allies, I'm sure it'll be "tourists" fault when idea gets rejected...

Yea, sure. That follows 🙄. One thing equates to another. Decent proposed changes equate to wanting anything willy nilly. And the earth is flat.

You read into my comment wrong. You don't know anything about warrior but spout about some flimsy lore as if there is any bearing in it with how well the class performs in reality.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

There are a few people here who either did not watch the stream or did not fully comprehend what they heard.

The skills and balance teams have begun an about face on tradeoffs and have begun removing them. Tradeoffs are more than just stat reductions. For BSW, the lose of weapon swap was explicitly stated as it's tradeoff. I have not brought up core bursts for BSW and have in no way suggested anything that would relegate it to core with some fluff tacked on. To say otherwise is misleading and derailing this thread.

If they are getting rid of tradeoffs, then I'd like an open and honest discussion of what that means for BSW and SPB. Specifically since by the context of the incoming buffs, they have been reading our very in depth discussions.

To me, what I said in the OP, is the easiest and most logical path forward if Anet is going full steam on removing "Tradeoffs."

So, discuss honestly and don't derail any further please.

[JTGuevara.9018]

1 hour ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Shout heals have nothing to do with bladesworns unique playstyle

 

Are you incapable of viewing bladesworns outside of the lense of the current competitive build? 

Bladesworn is one of the best dps builds in the game in pve with a unique playstyle unlike any build in the game 

Bladesworn in pvp is capable of a lot of damage in CC irrelevant of shout heals, its playstyle revolving around the use of  repeatable gunsaber ammo skills and the dragon trigger abilities is also completely unique 

 

Heh! Heh! This is pretty funny. The same was said of spellbreaker in its instanced pve heyday and yet....

[Zekent.3652]

17 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There are a few people here who either did not watch the stream or did not fully comprehend what they heard.

The skills and balance teams have begun an about face on tradeoffs and have begun removing them. Tradeoffs are more than just stat reductions. For BSW, the lose of weapon swap was explicitly stated as it's tradeoff. I have not brought up core bursts for BSW and have in no way suggested anything that would relegate it to core with some fluff tacked on. To say otherwise is misleading and derailing this thread.

If they are getting rid of tradeoffs, then I'd like an open and honest discussion of what that means for BSW and SPB. Specifically since by the context of the incoming buffs, they have been reading our very in depth discussions.

To me, what I said in the OP, is the easiest and most logical path forward if Anet is going full steam on removing "Tradeoffs."

So, discuss honestly and don't derail any further please.

This, and this comment should close the topic.

Also, so many salty confused reactions here lmaooo.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

This, and this comment should close the topic.

Also, so many salty confused reactions here lmaooo.

Ty. Some people are salty about TR I think and are lashing out.

[eXruina.4956]

i think gunsaber is ok the way it is. but having a 2nd weapon set to swap to would make it more powerful and raise the skill ceiling obviously. not really against that either, sounds like a good thing. 🤔 specially for those with godly mechanics looking for a high. 🤣

 

i think they designed it the way it is because its supposed to be the war x engi mix, i think its sound.

 

i'd like to see better adrenaline for the whole of warrior though, would be nice if it regenerates passively and doesn't decay.

 

i definitely wouldn't want to see core bursts slapped on bladesworn, maybe a reduced cooldown, better adrenaline gain, and/or lower trait proc benchmarks for traits like berserker's power, adrenal health, cleansing ire in competitive. 🤔

 

my personal dream for it is being able to move while channeling dragonslash. 🤣😴💭

Edited September 17, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

But bladesworn ISN'T lacking without core bursts

It's not lacking, but access to core bursts would definitely add some choice to it.

Now, I really doubt we will get weapon swap back + access to gunsaber. Even if the new dev balance team considered having Gunsaber as a fixed weapon choice a tradeoff. giving weapon swapping back isn't the only solution here.

IMO, their best approach to fixing that tradeoff is to actually make Gunsaber a weapon people WANT to use as their primary choice.  

Edited September 18, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not lacking, but access to core bursts would definitely add some choice to it and that is a choice that is lacking. 

Now, I really doubt we will get weapon swap back + access to gunsaber. Even if the new dev balance team considered having Gunsaber as a fixed weapon choice a tradeoff. giving weapon swapping back isn't the only solution here.

IMO, their best approach to fixing that tradeoff is to actually make Gunsaber a weapon people WANT to use as their primary choice.  

I want the underwater evade frames on Blooming Fire and for Breakstep to have double the distance traveled. Blooming Fire also needs to have further range on the attack, or even long the explosions forward like a fan of fire type skill. Just that evade and movement speed increase would be enough for it to be a decent weapon.

[Torq.4926]

The devs didn't say they were removing all tradeoffs, just the "bad" ones that didn't feel natural or fluid. They gave examples of druid, scrapper, and mirage as having problematic tradeoffs, e.g. arbitrary stat reductions or losing a dodge. Their examples of "good" tradeoffs were necro and guardian specs, e.g. trading core shroud for reaper shroud or core virtues for willbender virtues. (discussion is ~15 mins in the vod if anyone wants to look it up)

 

I think trading a weapon set for gunsaber is pretty reasonable, comparable to necro trading one shroud for another. There are a couple reasons that it feels clunky imo:
1) Gunsaber isn't well designed for pvp. Most of its power budget went into the 3 and 4 skills, 1 and 2 are rarely worth your time. 5 is ok but has a weird range, and fury on a movement skill is sort of random. This leads to gunsaber not feeling like a proper weapon because you just press 3/4 then dance around waiting to f2 or swap sets.
2) Bladesworn doesn't have room for discipline. Right now strength/tactics gives too much sustain to pass up, and after the patch I think strength/defense will be the next pick if shouts fall off. Even though discipline has good traits, it doesn't offer enough raw damage or sustain to carry bladesworn in competitive modes. As a result, you don't have fast hands on bladesworn and get stuck on gunsaber after pressing 3/4.

If they address either or both of these issues per your suggestions (baseline fast hands/reworked gunsaber) it will feel more like a "good" tradeoff

 

For spellbreaker, I doubt it'll get level 3 bursts since that would just be core warrior with extra features, but could maybe see giving it level 2 to make weapons like rifle or mace more viable, as their bursts scale strongly with adrenaline level. Otherwise I think spellbreaker's tradeoff is fine, it just has a lot of dead traits/skills that need to be looked at
 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, Torq.4926 said:

The devs didn't say they were removing all tradeoffs, just the "bad" ones that didn't feel natural or fluid. They gave examples of druid, scrapper, and mirage as having problematic tradeoffs, e.g. arbitrary stat reductions or losing a dodge. Their examples of "good" tradeoffs were necro and guardian specs, e.g. trading core shroud for reaper shroud or core virtues for willbender virtues. (discussion is ~15 mins in the vod if anyone wants to look it up)

 

I think trading a weapon set for gunsaber is pretty reasonable, comparable to necro trading one shroud for another. There are a couple reasons that it feels clunky imo:
1) Gunsaber isn't well designed for pvp. Most of its power budget went into the 3 and 4 skills, 1 and 2 are rarely worth your time. 5 is ok but has a weird range, and fury on a movement skill is sort of random. This leads to gunsaber not feeling like a proper weapon because you just press 3/4 then dance around waiting to f2 or swap sets.
2) Bladesworn doesn't have room for discipline. Right now strength/tactics gives too much sustain to pass up, and after the patch I think strength/defense will be the next pick if shouts fall off. Even though discipline has good traits, it doesn't offer enough raw damage or sustain to carry bladesworn in competitive modes. As a result, you don't have fast hands on bladesworn and get stuck on gunsaber after pressing 3/4.

If they address either or both of these issues per your suggestions (baseline fast hands/reworked gunsaber) it will feel more like a "good" tradeoff

 

For spellbreaker, I doubt it'll get level 3 bursts since that would just be core warrior with extra features, but could maybe see giving it level 2 to make weapons like rifle or mace more viable, as their bursts scale strongly with adrenaline level. Otherwise I think spellbreaker's tradeoff is fine, it just has a lot of dead traits/skills that need to be looked at
 

^ This is an example of honest discussion. TY for replying. Per the Necro and Guardian tradeoff comparisons though, that is all consolidated to the profession mechanics, and not things like stats or weapon swap. To me the loss of weapon swap is like the loss of core burst outside of Berserk on Berserker.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Another reason to add weapon swap back in. In the preview thread Hizen brought up that the TR nerf being game wide means that you'll no longer be able to reload the EMP for breakbars. He is right to point out that this is substantial for BSW, as the Gunsaber does not have any CC on it and you save your DS for after the break bar, and save your cartridges for DPS, not for CC.

Bringing weapon swap back means that you can bring a CC set on top of Axe/Pistol.  Gunsaber itself will still need buffs, too much of BSW's effectiveness is gated behind Dragon Slash, which is a mistake. DS being so overloaded means the Gunsaber gets left weak when it should be a more important part of the DPS rotation.

[oscuro.9720]

6 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I didn't say they all play the same, I said people on this subforum complain they do. And now they want to turn bladesworn into basically core warrior with additional options.

Whether you saw people make those complaints or not, the main point remains:

Ik you didn’t, I was just kind of ranting, because I see people say that and it annoys me. Sorry if that was unclear.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

They certainly play different, but they are 3 different ways of playing power DPS.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I didn't say they all play the same, I said people on this subforum complain they do. And now they want to turn bladesworn into basically core warrior with additional options.

Whether you saw people make those complaints or not, the main point remains:

Well I think this is because people saw how ANet handled this "different" approach and it doesn't particularly feel great and has also been carried in competitive modes by its bloated sustain which will be seeing nerfs come October 4th. We'll see how it pans out when people actually get the opportunity to play it without the crutch that it has had; which I personally think will highlight the flaws in its design and how it "feels" to play. They've fixed a couple of the bugs it had, and adjusted it so it doesn't have spammable Stability, but without it being able to 12345 spam heal to full on top of double Shake It Off, and 20 sec CD shouts getting their ammo charges refreshed by Tactical Reload I'm curious to see how individuals with Kayberz particular perspective react to the gameplay.

I won't lie, thematically Bladesworn is very appealing and I want to want to play it but...execution wise, in my opinion, it is not so great. Felt like ESO combat clunk and jank and I viciously dislike ESO's combat. Its legitimately why I didn't play New World initially, because it looked and felt exactly like that but they have since made a good number of QoL adjustments that have mostly amended that specific issue I had with it. ANet I think needs to take a similar approach to try and amend that feeling with Bladesworn.

[draxynnic.3719]

Thinking on the spellbreaker, I think their mechanic is intended to represent a different relationship with adrenaline altogether. They don't blow it all on one burst, but have a more fluid approach of burst-counter-burst (while needing to get another bar of adrenaline between bursts). Essentially, instead of having infrequent big bursts, you're able to make semi-regular bursts one after each other.

In this context, I think spellbreaker picking up core 2- and 3-level bursts would actually be detrimental, since it would lose some of its fluidity. It'd at least make it a lot harder to follow a burst with a counter, since you wouldn't be able to burst knowing you have a bar in reserve for the counter. Which, in turn, would reduce the value of the recharge, since by the time you've bursted, built up adrenaline for a counter, countered, and built up adrenaline again...odds are probably good the burst has recharged again already.

If they were inclined to hand out a straight buff to spellbreaker, they could give it a third bar but keep the bursts limited to level one bursts. This would maintain the flavour of 'weaker bursts but more of them', while allowing the spellbreaker to have more in reserve. Giving it 2nd and 3rd level bursts, though, could risk actually making it weaker, and certainly less distinctive.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

21 hours ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

Yea, sure. That follows 🙄. One thing equates to another. Decent proposed changes equate to wanting anything willy nilly. And the earth is flat.

You read into my comment wrong. You don't know anything about warrior but spout about some flimsy lore as if there is any bearing in it with how well the class performs in reality.

Now who's jumping to conclusions..
I said I'm not a warrior main. But I never said I don't know the profession or have zero experience playing it.

That being said the lore argument.. well as much as I'd love to beat you in an argument..
I can't beat someone who's already beaten himself.

If you were so keen on performance, you wouldn't be here. You'd be playing top tier builds on top tier professions, not caring about situation of some 2nd rate profession. Simply picking the best tool for the job, without much care for why it's this profession in current state of meta and not other.

But you are here, so you do care about the "flimsy lore". Except in your case that flimsy lore is the warrior identity, and you want your warrior to perform. There's no shame in it, I too want the same for necro (because believe it or not, we're about to be in your boat real soon).

But just as you want the avatar of identity you chose (warrior) to perform, I don't want to see one of the more distinct and kitten designs be butchered into it's complete opposite.

Besides removing bladesworn's tradeoff isn't a fix to begin with. It's just sweeping the problem under the rug. The real fix is to make gunsaber great, and bladesworn a reliable, powerful spec that excels at what it does by default. Without relying on some bugs (spvp) or getting destroyed by some weird interactions (slight terrain differences voiding dragon slashes completely back when).

Edited September 18, 2022 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Verdict is Vengence.6912]

19 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Now who's jumping to conclusions..
I said I'm not a warrior main. But I never said I don't now the profession or have zero experience playing it.

That being said the lore argument.. well as much as I'd love to beat you in an argument..
I can't beat someone who's already beaten himself.

If you were so keen on performance, you wouldn't be here. You'd be playing top tier builds on top tier professions, not caring about situation of some 2nd rate profession. Simply picking the best tool for the job, without much care for why it's this profession in current state of meta and not other.

But you are here, so you do care about the "flimsy lore". Except in your case that flimsy lore is the warrior identity, and you want your warrior to perform. There's not shame in it, I too want the same for necro (because believe it or not, we're about to be in your boat real soon).

But just as you want the avatar of identity you chose (warrior) to perform, I don't want to see one of the more distinct and kitten designs be butchered into it's complete opposite.

Besides removing bladesworn's tradeoff isn't a fix to begin with. It's just sweeping the problem under the rug. The real fix is to make gunsaber great, and bladesworn a reliable, powerful spec that excels at what it does by default. Without relying on some bugs (spvp) or getting destroyed by some weird interactions (slight terrain differences voiding dragon slashes completely back when).

Edited 15 minutes ago by ZeftheWicked.3076

You have no idea what you're talking about lol

[Vancho.8750]

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not lacking, but access to core bursts would definitely add some choice to it.

Now, I really doubt we will get weapon swap back + access to gunsaber. Even if the new dev balance team considered having Gunsaber as a fixed weapon choice a tradeoff. giving weapon swapping back isn't the only solution here.

IMO, their best approach to fixing that tradeoff is to actually make Gunsaber a weapon people WANT to use as their primary choice.  

This right here. For all the drawbacks The gunsaber should be the Best Utility and DPS weapon in the game to the point of not wanting to swap it and your normal set to do something specialized and even feel bad for sticking too much on it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

On 9/18/2022 at 2:57 PM, Vancho.8750 said:

This right here. For all the drawbacks The gunsaber should be the Best Utility and DPS weapon in the game to the point of not wanting to swap it and your normal set to do something specialized and even feel bad for sticking too much on it.

This is how I would boost Gunsaber:

• Blooming Fire gets the evade frames it has underwater in the land version of the skill
• Breakstep's distance is increased at least to 600 range if not 900
• I would increase the range on Blooming Fire to 240
• I would either turn Cyclone Trigger into a full block or straight into a Missile Reflect

From there I would see how it performs before adding in damage, but Blooming Fire is where I would add more damage if I were the one to do it.