Do you like the well changes ?

[Kougiou.5634]

Just so it's clear to Anet developers.....

Edited September 19, 2022 by Kougiou.5634

[Dawdler.8521]

The thread title indicate a "yes I like AoE targetted change for gyros" for the poll, the actual poll asks for "yes I like stationary gyros".

This kind of entrapment is evil architect work, not true engineering.

[Kougiou.5634]

56 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The thread title indicate a "yes I like AoE targetted change for gyros" for the poll, the actual poll asks for "yes I like stationary gyros".

This kind of entrapment is evil architect work, not true engineering.

As an engineer both irl and in game, i loled 

[melodyspectrum.2980]

I hate it with every fiber of my being. All viable engi builds are already 75% ground targeted aoes. PLS NO MORE.

[Doggie.3184]

I pick "Maybe." It'd be nice if they were built better for it. They need more than just "changed to ground target"~ they'd need "redesigned for ground target." Doesn't really help much when the Spec is Melee Hammer though... conflicting design. It's a flip of like how Thief gets a Range Weapon but Wells put it into Melee Range, lol.

Edited September 19, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Kougiou.5634]

11 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I pick "Maybe." It'd be nice if they were built better for it. They need more than just "changed to ground target"~ they'd need "redesigned for ground target." Doesn't really help much when the Spec is Melee Hammer though... conflicting design. It's a flip of like how Thief gets a Range Weapon but Wells put it into Melee Range, lol.

You can place healing gyro and not get any heal from it... and you can place a bulwark gyro and get only damage from it.. this is just ... amazing ( in a bad way) 

[Trejgon.9367]

personally I'm indifferent to them for the moment being.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

i mean it's ok to swap meta, in lol thay do it constantly and it's nice to see other classes/champions

but well changes whole gameplay of scrapper,

 

-> it's light buff for zergs, as you can put stealth gyro  on downet target, blast gyro will stun ppl far away, and shared gyro deal dmg for  far away what for zergs is nice

 

-> but devs overlooked huge nerf for solo roaming or small party  wher you want keep gyros on yourself insted of your team, vs 1-5 opponents it's much harder to "aim" gyro to give you any befenit at alll as simple you or enemy will walk from it

In that sytuation sneak gyro make you dissaper only after 1-2s

shreed gyro will apply 25-50% of it's dmg

Blast gyro will not stun enemy cuz thay will walk of it

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

It is not going to work the way they intend it to work. 900 range is A LOT for wells as powerful as ours. While it will be challenging to adapt to the new/old system, I guess this change will turn out as a buff in the long term.

Looking forward to this change.

[Zoser.7245]

No. 

I watch the Sneak Gyro losing a lot potential for engage/gank  and also lose let you move in stealth out of the danger area.  With a static well you'll be flooded with AoE and killed despite the use of the Gyro as its stealth per pulse if very short and you will revealed in no time after leave the area.   Bulwark Gyro will kill you if you cast it on your allies being out of its area of effect as you will no gain the barrier out of the area.  Purge Gyro will  make you lose time deciding between safe yourself or use it on your allies some times and some times taking bad decisions. Also have all gyros ground target is  lose of vital time unless you have a good device with the keys binded to the skills and not needing to use the mouse to click the skill in normal mode and then place it on the target area.

 

They have not published changes for Gyros skills, only the ground  target mechanic for all them.  If they don't rework some of them... or add some new trait or traits to improve them.... they will suc*s  like they are now with the ground target mechanic added.

 

In WvW mobility is fundamental.  That is why they are doing this. Is a big nerf.  And more now that they are removing cripple from Scourges, and favouring less cleanses with more stability uptime. So it will be a lot easier leave the areas of the static gyros. And encouraging players to try to  find alernative professions/specializations with a better kit while moving.  If you also add the lose of the  quickness... even worse.   Also a lot of your support traits affect a small area around you so at the end of the day you will allways want to be with your kitten glued to your allies for clean and heal them,  share boons, etc.  Which shows clearly that mobile gyros are ideal for the Scrapper and make them static is a big nerf.

 

The single positive side that i can see is the use of the offensive ranged ones in PvE events.... without forget that you lose the quickness sharing, so, meh and that even the Blast Gyro only do damage and CC after 3 whose seconds.  If that kitten hits someone is because it is a stupid AI.  I only can be negative about this change unless they rework the skills of the gyros to work better with the ground target mechanic.  

Edited September 20, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Xervite.5493]

Not exactly an engi player but I hop on mine sometimes, for me scrapper wells were unique because they follow you around which kinda was it's identity. Sucks that they are changing this because of a single game mode. (not sure if this change is exclusive to wvw?) Stationary wells especially when it comes to support are in a terrible state, yup looking at chrono. 

[Sifu.9745]

If Wells really have to be stationary (no idea why), at least make them non ground targeting. Instead make them drop at your feet, like Dragonhunter's Traps: That would make Scraper's life a bit easier, no need for double clicking/pressing buttons. We already have too many ground targeting aoe abilities and skills.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Sifu.9745

[Kougiou.5634]

2 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

If Wells really have to be stationary (no idea why), at least make them non ground targeting. Instead make them drop at your feet, like Dragonhunter's Traps: That would make Scraper's life a bit easier, no need for double clicking/pressing buttons. We already have too many ground targeting aoe abilities and skills.

The idea to drop on engineer's feet is nice. But for double clicking.. that's what auto cast is for, especially with so many targetable abilities, really there is no choice other than playing with auto cast on (where the mouse is) so you don't double click, just click the ability and it will be aimed at the location of your mouse. If you don't know this is possible, try it ! It will save you many double clicks 

[Sifu.9745]

21 minutes ago, Kougiou.5634 said:

The idea to drop on engineer's feet is nice. But for double clicking.. that's what auto cast is for, especially with so many targetable abilities, really there is no choice other than playing with auto cast on (where the mouse is) so you don't double click, just click the ability and it will be aimed at the location of your mouse. If you don't know this is possible, try it ! It will save you many double clicks 

Auto cast ground targeting is not always the best solution. For example Elementalist's Staff. You don't want to accidentally auto cast your healing ground targeting spells on enemy target, but you want to do it with your harmful spells, so ... there is a dilemma: to auto cast or not to auto cast:) For harmful spells that's a good option (with a few exceptions), for healing and support spells/skills, not so much.

[Kougiou.5634]

9 minutes ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Auto cast ground targeting is not always the best solution. For example Elementalist's Staff. You don't want to accidentally auto cast your healing ground targeting spells on enemy target, but you want to do it with your harmful spells, so ... there is a dilemma: to auto cast or not to auto cast:) For harmful spells that's a good option (with a few exceptions), for healing and support spells/skills, not so much.

I would take the risk, especially now that mouse is more visible 

[Antycypator.9874]

Gyro working only around caster doesn't make sense — they SHOULD be like little drones, so you can send them on your enemies.

[Kougiou.5634]

24 minutes ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

Gyro working only around caster doesn't make sense — they SHOULD be like little drones, so you can send them on your enemies.

So they can step out of them ? Right..

[Custodio.6134]

5 hours ago, Sifu.9745 said:

Instead make them drop at your feet, like Dragonhunter's Traps: That would make Scraper's life a bit easier, no need for double clicking/pressing buttons. We already have too many ground targeting aoe abilities and skills.

trap-style gyros would make them absolutely useless tbh. 
with ground targeting you are able to place them ahead into movement direction, resulting in ppl walking into them (thus, getting more pulses --> more value). 
you even get the option to place them behind yourself (look back -keybind is your friend here) and get people out of immob/chill/cripple, while giving them superspeed to catch back up. that´s actually an improvement
without ("trap-style") you will be guaranteed to only receive only the first pulse (as you start moving out already from the middle point/close to the center point). 

 

Quote

no need for double clicking/pressing buttons.

Go to settings --> Combat/Movement --> Ground targeting: Fast with Range Indicator (or instant). 
boom, done. no more double-clicking for any ground-targeted skill. It´s literally one dropdown menu to change that.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Custodio.6134

[wasss.1208]

I'm undecided on the changes yet.

On one hand, it opens up new ways to support in PvE, and non-moving wells aren't a problem there. While it can be better, it also sounds less fun.

On the other hand: in PvP, (and WvW roaming) together with the removal of the quickness, it completely messes up Scrapper. There is no way anyone will get hit by Blast Gyro, for example. The defensive gyros lock the Scrapper in place, thus making them a sitting duck. Druid CA2 had the same problem in the past, when it had a slower blooming timer. If they go through with these changes, without giving compensation to Gyros, Scrapper might fall out of viability.
Despite this, I'm pretty sure we'll see "Scrapper is spamming AoEs on the point, blizz nerf it pls!!!" posts in the future.

In WvW, I'm not sure, if the changes will be as effective, as the balance team anticipates. Let me explain:
Cleansing and Bulwark Gyro - In hectic teamfights, you'll still get almost full value out of your Cleansing, and Bulwark, because there is a huge chance, that there will be at least 5 people standing in them, for most of the duration. It will be a nerf for sure, but they could get the same effect, with numerical changes. Shorter duration, longer cooldown, etc...
Sneak Gyro - It is used either before stealth bombing, via smoke blasting, or using it to hide a focused ally, during the fight. It'll work the same way after the changes. You'll still put it down, and blast it with the team, then go on with the push, or use it mid-fight, to cover your ally.
Shredder Gyro - The change gives the DPS variant an another button to use when a bomb is called. It makes it worse during pushing.
Medic Gyro - As far as I am aware, only DPS Scrapper runs this. This change nerfs DPS Scrapper. DPS Scrapper doesn't need a nerf.
Defense Field - This is a genuenly good change. Even if they decide to scrap the Gyro changes, they should still push this one through.

tl;dr: in my oppinion, the Fumigate+Cleansing Field nerf will be more impactful on WvW, than the Gyro changes. The Gyro changes will mess up roaming, and PvP, where Scrapper is already "meh". In PvE, it only changes how the spec feels.

[Ghos.1326]

Lets not forget folks.

These ground targeted AoEs disappear after a few seconds of their deployment.

Meanwhile, necro's marks last until the earth is swallowed by the sun (billions of years).

[Antycypator.9874]

8 hours ago, Kougiou.5634 said:

So they can step out of them ? Right..

Just like every aoe skill in this game?

[MaLong.2079]

8 hours ago, Kougiou.5634 said:

So they can step out of them ? Right..

Also, I remember the original gyros. I don't remember them in detail because I immediately discarded them but I remember they used to follow the scrapper after summoning them (I think).  They were super slow. Telling them where to go would probably suffer from that.

The current implementation is not bad. There is some tradeoff between the gyro's mobility and the fact that the scrapper is in the center of it. So, to hit something with the shredder gyro the scrapper has to go there and risk getting hit, immobilized, etc.

I think they just have to redesign how skills that affect multiple targets work.

 

[Zoser.7245]

16 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

trap-style gyros would make them absolutely useless tbh. 
with ground targeting you are able to place them ahead into movement direction, resulting in ppl walking into them (thus, getting more pulses --> more value). 
you even get the option to place them behind yourself (look back -keybind is your friend here) and get people out of immob/chill/cripple, while giving them superspeed to catch back up. that´s actually an improvement
without ("trap-style") you will be guaranteed to only receive only the first pulse (as you start moving out already from the middle point/close to the center point). 

 

Go to settings --> Combat/Movement --> Ground targeting: Fast with Range Indicator (or instant). 
boom, done. no more double-clicking for any ground-targeted skill. It´s literally one dropdown menu to change that.

That option is aplied to all your skills. So, no thanks, unless in your build there are no other ranged ground target skills ok...  But the moment you mix ground target skills that require be ranged to be optimal that other that not,  you have a big problem to evalue and a conflict to resolve and choose what it's better but often you end sacrificing. The best option is have a competent developers in the game that know how to design their skills for the mechanics involved in them. 

Blast Gyro is a big example of a skill that never should be a ground target one in competitive. No one will be there 3 whole seconds unless he burned everything and even in that case, the skills itself is an a utility with no big impact. In PvP/WvW it will have no damage and only CC you after 3 seconds in a small static area.  To me sounds like a joke one unles you it's mobile and you can follow your foe.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Zoser.7245

[Curtis.7890]

   BLOODY BOXING

         DING

"Hey Ref this aint a balanced match. The boxer in red is moving too fast and the boxer in white cant even get a hit in! " 

Ref: " ok we will cut one of the red boxers legs off to slow him down. " 

           DING

"Hey Ref it still aint balanced the red boxer gets in two hits for every one the one in white gets."

Ref:" ok we will cut one arm off the red boxer."

          DING DING

" Hey Ref I think the red boxer bled out he is on the floor and he is dead ! "

Ref ok now it is balanced match. 

           DING DONG

Balance by subtraction is never a valid or successful strategy  and no one ends up happy because everyone realizes their favorite  class could be next. Why fix what isn't broken. Leave the Scrapper gyro's as they are, drones. Not well's or turrets. Make your adjustments another way before you kill the patient. 

[BeardRex.6739]

Yes and No. I do like, flavor--wise, that they will feel more like separate entities to the scrapper, but I prefer my own vision for how thy should work.

 

1) Dropping the gyro away from you, will leave it stationary like the new change.

2) Dropping the gyro on top of you, will attach it to you like the old way.

3) Using the toolbelt skill detach the gyro from you and leave it stationary. (no more moving projectile block from bulwark)

 

Now, 2 and/or 3 could also be trait related, OR there could be a trait that makes gyros operate as they do pre-patch.

 

I just think having them one way or the other is boring, and if we're looking for more skillful ways to play, or tradeoffs for powerful effects, I think changes in the vein of what I have suggested would be more interesting.