Nerfing the Power Mechanist? Here's A Practical Reason Not Too.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

 

Maybe if you'd stop incessantly calling it "metanist" you wouldn't look like such a salty troll.

Given that in a game with nine professions and four variations of each profession for a total of thirty-six, metanist manages to fill close to one third of all endgame group slots... yeah, I think the term fits. The meta has become its pet just as much as the mech is. It helps that it happens to be a mere fricative switch away from the official name.

I'll stop calling it that when it stops being absolutely dominant in the meta. It'll probably still be high just out of versatility, but even excluding core professions altogether, when one elite specialisation out of twenty-seven is that dominant and it can't even be justified by having a monopoly on an important mechanic, something is clearly out of whack.

[Okhu.7948]

On 9/19/2022 at 7:58 PM, Mell.4873 said:

I think if they dropped the DPS by about 30% which would bring it inline with most other Classes. I think the simple fact the a Low Intensity Build can out DPS most top DPS builds in PvE (Open World) is very annoying.

People will say other Classes "can" out DPS them but its not the same when Mechanist has almost no rotation.

Terrible idea. Why even play it at that point? Support builds would do more damage.

[Mell.4873]

26 minutes ago, Okhu.7948 said:

Terrible idea. Why even play it at that point? Support builds would do more damage.

You would play it for the Low Intensity of the build and the fact it is ranged + Pet.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

You would play it for the Low Intensity of the build and the fact it is ranged + Pet.

 

And you will not even be allowed to enter a group because you do kitten poor damage as a DPS and a support will deal the same if not much more damage while actually giving the team much more utility.

 

Being ranged+pet means nothing if you cannot bring a minimum value

Edited September 22, 2022 by Alcatraznc.3869

[Okhu.7948]

18 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

You would play it for the Low Intensity of the build and the fact it is ranged + Pet.

Why would I take that to raids and strikes? Why would my team take that to raids and strikes at that point? They wouldn't. Why should people who can't deal with PITA rotations suffer because you're jealous?

[Mell.4873]

16 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

And you will not even be allowed to enter a group because you do kitten poor damage as a DPS and a support will deal the same if not much more damage while actually giving the team much more utility.

 

Being ranged+pet means nothing if you cannot bring a minimum value

Okay so play the support version. I thought that was the main selling point of Mechanist was to be a good Support DPS not to be Low Intensity Class.

45 minutes ago, Okhu.7948 said:

Why would I take that to raids and strikes? Why would my team take that to raids and strikes at that point? They wouldn't. Why should people who can't deal with PITA rotations suffer because you're jealous?

Why are you bringing a Low Intensity build into a raid?

Edited September 22, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Sobx.1758]

On 9/20/2022 at 12:04 AM, Chichimec.9364 said:

It was a crisp, hard fought, and engaging battle.

Crisp, hard fought and engaging? The problem with mech is that it plays for you. I wouldn't say the words you've decided to use here are a proper way to call what the mech build does. Well maybe "crisp" -depending how exactly you understand it- since you sit back and mech basically blows stuff out of your way. Hard fought and engaging though? Not at all.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[AliamRationem.5172]

48 minutes ago, Okhu.7948 said:

Why would I take that to raids and strikes? Why would my team take that to raids and strikes at that point? They wouldn't. Why should people who can't deal with PITA rotations suffer because you're jealous?

Why should people who enjoy classes other than mechanist suffer because some players can't perform to a minimum standard without an overtuned spec that plays itself?  I'm sure most players on both sides of this debate would be fine with a low-intensity mechanist build that performs well for players who need such a build but is not among the top picks for DPS among players who don't.  That would be a balanced vision of the spec. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

17 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay so play the support version. I thought that was the main selling point of Mechanist was to be a good Support DPS not to be Low Intensity Class.

Why are you bringing a Low Intensity build into a raid?

I'm pretty sure the low-intensity play style is very much intended and raid accessibility is also a target.  Having said that, there is no reason mechanist needs to be as strong as it is to achieve these goals.

[Mell.4873]

35 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I'm pretty sure the low-intensity play style is very much intended and raid accessibility is also a target.  Having said that, there is no reason mechanist needs to be as strong as it is to achieve these goals.

Yes but it should not be the standard. If you can play something better (and its higher DPS) you should. I would okay with Low Intensity builds being the standard for Open World Events but definitely not for raids.

LI Builds should be reserved for training runs so you can learn the mechanics.

Edited September 22, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Alcatraznc.3869]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I thought that was the main selling point of Mechanist was to be a good Support DPS not to be Low Intensity Class.

 

The main selling point of the Mech was to have a strong pet following the engineer, which has been made clear from the beginning when the dev said they are removing toolbelt skill in favor of giving the Mech more power.

 

The fact it has a low intensity build is the result of allowing the pet to actually do damage which in return made the class more popular for people with disabilities overall. 32k DPS is trash for DPS. 34k is already acceptable.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

The main selling point of the Mech was to have a strong pet following the engineer, which has been made clear from the beginning when the dev said they are removing toolbelt skill in favor of giving the Mech more power.

 

The fact it has a low intensity build is the result of allowing the pet to actually do damage which in return made the class more popular for people with disabilities overall. 32k DPS is trash for DPS. 34k is already acceptable.

Quote from the wiki "This makes mechanists very versatile, letting them specialise into damage dealing, or support, providing boons and healing" seems like a Support DPS to me. They should not be doing nearly that much DPS if the slot in just damage traits and I guess the Devs agree.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Alcatraznc.3869]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Quote from the wiki "This makes mechanists very versatile, letting them specialise into damage dealing, or support, providing boons and healing" seems like a Support DPS to me. They should not be doing nearly that much DPS if the slot in just those traits and I guess the Devs agree.

 

"This makes mechanists very versatile, letting them specialise into damage dealing..." 

 

Sounds to me you can play PMech and do primarily damage.

 

And guess what, support mech do not pump out as much damage as any DPS but what you're asking is for PMech to pump out as much damage as support without providing ANYTHING ELSE. Because in case you're not aware PMech gives nothing to the team.

[Mell.4873]

17 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

"This makes mechanists very versatile, letting them specialise into damage dealing..." 

 

Sounds to me you can play PMech and do primarily damage.

 

And guess what, support mech do not pump out as much damage as any DPS but what you're asking is for PMech to pump out as much damage as support without providing ANYTHING ELSE. Because in case you're not aware PMech gives nothing to the team.

You definitely can but its sold to be versatile and not just a damage spec like some other elites so we should never see it above 35k.
We should really see Holosmith have the 35k+ DPS spot.

[The Boz.2038]

34 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

"This makes mechanists very versatile, letting them specialise into damage dealing..." 

Sounds to me you can play PMech and do primarily damage.

Rifle powermech with a mine has the following:

• ~36k DPS in an optimal rotation, but 30k is easy to do, 80% of it at 1200 range
• ~1.3k breakbar damage, most on easy access, a lot being either instant cast or parallel
• Two instant movement skills, one of which has true terrain ignore
• Boon removal, stack of 3 every 15 seconds or less
• Two condition removal with a stunbreak and a teleport
• Constant ~20 stacks of vulnerability, can spike to 25 often
• Constant increased movement speed
• Constant might generation, resting at around 7-8
• Constant ticking healing from multiple sources

It compares *extremely* favorably to other ~35k DPS builds in the "non-DPS utility" department.

[ArjukKagrim.6049]

I totally agree with above post: Even after the patch on Oct 4th P-Mech is still very good, maybe even too good compared to other classes and imo needs an additional nerf. With its CC,  full, range, shift-signet teleport, no dps downtime, viability at every boss in game, it is probably still too strong/oppressive for other builds.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/22/2022 at 3:51 PM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

And you will not even be allowed to enter a group because you do kitten poor damage as a DPS and a support will deal the same if not much more damage while actually giving the team much more utility.

 

Being ranged+pet means nothing if you cannot bring a minimum value

You don't need to get even close to the benchmark to clear most content. A lot of people don't.

That's a large part of the issue. Rifle metanist benches at a similar value to other power DPS builds in ideal circumstances. But in practice, it achieves a much higher proportion of that DPS than most builds. It has range, so your DPS doesn't drop when you have to move away from the target. Even if that fails, the mech is still doing damage. The simple rotation means that there's little risk of having your DPS smacked down due to your rotation being interrupted at a critical moment.

The cumulation of this means that, with moderately skilled groups, it usually tops the DPS meters. Often by a considerable margin.

It can take a bit of a nerfing to bring it down to the level of everything else in actual encounters. If it gets pushed so low that it stops being worth taking at all, then it should be buffed back up.

[Suyheuti.1732]

On 9/22/2022 at 4:25 AM, Okhu.7948 said:

Terrible idea. Why even play it at that point? Support builds would do more damage.

 

Not terrible. Dont compare benchmark DPS. Power Mech is able to deal DPS very close to benchmark in real scenario. Most of the other classes are not. For instance, lets take Power Bladesworn. It has the highest power dps according to benchmarks, right? At the bosses which moves continuously, bladesword loses too much dps. But pmech doesnt. Lets take catalyst, if someone can archieve benchmark DPS on random moving boss, I can applause him deeply, because it has to be way more melee. With mech, you can continue paw paw paw. It that fair? 

Pmech's benchmark DPS shouldn't pass over 33k. Otherwise it will be unfair to Power Holosmith and Scrapper both. 

[Lynx.9058]

15 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Why are you bringing a Low Intensity build into a raid?

So you'd rather exclude entire elite specs from being able to participate in a large amount of content just to sate your piano-build ego?

[Suyheuti.1732]

16 minutes ago, Lynx.9058 said:

So you'd rather exclude entire elite specs from being able to participate in a large amount of content just to sate your piano-build ego?

I'd rather to keep away overperforming braindead builds from instanced content for health game experience. When it gets the proper nerf it deserves, we will be ok. 

[Mell.4873]

If anything the discussion here about the Mechanist problem has highlighted a big unknown in Open World PvE.
This is that DPS means nothing for OW Events, it is all about the utility you bring in your kit.

A perfect example that comes to mind is playing Soulbeast vs Untamed. While Soulbeast has much better damage numbers the whole class lends itself to group content and not surviving. While Untamed is really powerful soloing and by extension not dying which excels in OW content.

My point like @The Boz.2038 has pointed out is that Mechanist brings a lot more than just DPS and the fact it has such high benchmark is a problem.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

7 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said:

I'd rather to keep away overperforming braindead builds from instanced content for health game experience. When it gets the proper nerf it deserves, we will be ok. 

comment like this makes me laugh. Did you just start raiding? Atm, all spec does way too much damage. All Raids can be cleared with auto attack build with almost all classes except support class.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Yellow Rainbow.6142

[anbujackson.9564]

40 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

comment like this makes me laugh. Did you just start raiding? Atm, all spec does way too much damage. All Raids can be cleared with auto attack build with almost all classes except support class.

Sure they do.

But apparently you are blissfully unaware that MANY people do significantly more dps on mech than on other classes. 

I can safely bet my account that overall damage in pug squads would fall if you have every mech dps player use something else. I see it all the time how they switch from almost any class and instead of 15k they do 20k + right of the bat. The difference might go even higher sometimes.

Also its exactly the reason why the suggestions of people to buff classes to mech lvl is just stupid. Raise the skill floor and not lower it. More effort for more reward is a basic principle in RL, too.

Edited September 23, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

56 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Sure they do.

But apparently you are blissfully unaware that MANY people do significantly more dps on mech than on other classes. 

I can safely bet my account that overall damage in pug squads would fall if you have every mech dps player use something else. I see it all the time how they switch from almost any class and instead of 15k they do 20k + right of the bat. The difference might go even higher sometimes.

Also its exactly the reason why the suggestions of people to buff classes to mech lvl is just stupid. Raise the skill floor and not lower it. More effort for more reward is a basic principle in RL, too.

Sounds like you are just afraid that casual people who don't have open world leggy armor option might just get their armor from raid playing casually.

Give casual open world pve leggy armor or give them Mech.

[Kuma.1503]

11 hours ago, Suyheuti.1732 said:

Pmech's benchmark DPS shouldn't pass over 33k. Otherwise it will be unfair to Power Holosmith and Scrapper both. 

Don't mind the condi scourge in the corner doing the exact same thing while providing support. He gets to do 35k dps because Reasons™

Edited September 24, 2022 by Kuma.1503